Woman performs csection on self - Page 3

[IslandMamma]

Originally posted by lilyka
I can only think of how terrified she was. the baby was probably fine but she just freaked when thing started looking similar to what they had when she lost her previous child. I can't imagine laboring totallyalone. Transition puts some weird thoughts into my head.

+Also comsider what when through her mind while she was pregnant. Perhaps she chose a UA because she partly blamed the medical establishment for her last birth or maybe she just couldn't afford anyone. Then she spends nine months or so thinking what will I do if somehting goes wrong. Aalyzing what went wrong last time, guessing each step what it was. The she goes into labor and in no time at all her mind goes streight to "OMG it is happening again!" doesn't matter what reality was. I know when I am in labor every hour seems like an eternity and i have reletively short labors. Imagine what she started to think if it was taking some time. Sopo she freaks because her mind juumps to the worst case scenario and she would rather die before being responsible for her childs death and goes to the back up plan that had been floating in her mind for the last 9 months. It was already there probably and she only needed a reason, real or contrived to convince her it was time. Sorry this is how my mind works (or doesn't) whenI am pregnant and part of the reason we won't be having any more.

Although maybe if more people took a few shots of hard liquer instead of an epidural we would have fewer complications from anestesia

ITA, Lilyka....

Greaseball, there are no ambulances in rural Mexico. In many cases, at least where I lived for a season, the nearest hospital is 4+ hours away over dirt roads that may or may not be driveable.

I don't think this particular incident is fair to compare to homebirthing. In rural Mexico, homebirthing is the norm. I agree that the publicity makes me cringe, but that seems like typical American (no flames, please) fascination with the morbid and/or extreme.

What really pisses me off is this, from the Seattle P-I article:

"The woman and her son, her ninth child, both survived despite an eight-hour car ride to the nearest hospital and a wait of several hours once she got there, said co-author Dr. Rafael Valle, a Northwestern University obstetrician who learned about the case from a colleague."

A SEVERAL HOUR WAIT?????????? Now THAT is stark raving wrong.

[Greaseball]

If I knew I had to have a c-section and didn't live anywhere near a hospital, I would find a way to get there before I was in labor, maybe as early as 37 weeks. Hitchhike, take a bus, whatever.

I know in America they will often have a woman come in early to get induced, if she lives too far from the hospital and might not make it in time if she were to go into labor on her own. Is this not available in Mexico?

[lilyka]

This poor woman! Had to wait several hours after an 8 hour ride to the hospital. Then again they probably figured she survived this long whats another two hours. I can't even imagine what it would be like ot be in her shoes. Living in the middle of nowhere, no money,m no one to drive youto the hospital. Kinda makes me wonder if she didn't do the c-sec just as a desperate way to get sme medical care for her child. Gees, it is a sad sad world sometime. No mother should have to resort to that. I can't even imagine being that desperate. It hbreaks my heart to even consider what was going through her mind, how completely over whelming it must have been for her. She must have been so scared.

[PurpleBasil]

where did she give birth the other eight times? And how did that go in terms of proximity to hospital, etc.?

8 times. That's a lot of experience. She probably knew where to cut from the previous c-secs, don't you think?

Greaseball, you are funny. Too true about those hell bent on hombirthing mamas just getting all sorts of flack but a DIY c sec wins the accolade of the world.

[cottonwood]

Originally posted by pamamidwife
I don't think this woman is necessarily a hero, but rather a victim - I think that what she did was probably a result of programming from the medical community, where she was willing to risk both of their lives to perform this act.

Is it any surprise that I agree with you?

[B & B]

How nice of you who judge and not try to wrap your mind around the fact this woman lives in rural Mexico, she tried to have this child naturally then felt something was wrong and c/b her self. I doubt she thought she'd have problems, I doubt she has a car, hell I doubt she had prenatal appointments. She did what SHE felt was necessary, it was extreme but it was her choice, her action and her body. I commend all that homebirth, but it is not so unusual that we need to put it on the nightly news.

[Susu]

i think, B&B, that there are some of us here who have a hard time looking a c/b story from a perspective other than that of a homebirth advocate.

performing that kind of surgery on oneself and surviving with a healthy baby surely leads me to believe this woman knew what she was doing.

victim? i would have to agree with annakiss's dh.

[pamamidwife]

Well, it comes down to the fact that we'll probably never know the whole story. So, one can twist it and use it for any purpose at all, that is true.

Knowing stories of rural Mexico and birth, and serving some women who have lived there, I tend to be a bit cynical. But, alas, my opinion is one that is disregarded because of my passion for natural birth.

Not worried about it, but it is interesting how many different (or maybe, in everyone else's eye, not so different) views on this story there are.

[muse]

What an incredible amount of judgement going on here! And what an American-centric view some people are spouting.

This woman lived in a rural setting, no electricity, no water, 8 hrs from the nearest hospital. Greaseball if you believe so strongly in homebirth why do you believe this woman should have driven to a hospital early on (where they very likely would have done a C-section automatically)? She had already given birth a number of times, and by the sounds of it is an empowered woman who knows her own body. The baby wasn't coming out vaginally (IT HAPPENS! Don't go slamming people who need C sections, sometimes they ARE necessary) so she took drastic measures. Call it mama instinct. She knew what she had to do to save the baby's life. She survived, the baby survived. Shouldn't we all be very happy for them, and impressed with her strength and wisdom? It makes me wonder how long women have been doing this, historically.

[DreamsInDigital]

Pam, I would never disregard your views just because of your profession or your passion.
In fact, I was waiting to see what you said about this. I thought if anyone had an opinion worth reading, you would. I could have sworn I saw something in your journal about it but I must have been mistaken. There are some of us here who adore you! So don't feel bad.

[PurpleBasil]

ITA Dreams in Digital! Pamamidwife, if anyone knows what the birthing climate is like in rural Mexico, it is you (on this thread).

There is a lot of projecting and hypothizing going on here from people who do not know the kind of birth management and lack of belief in women's birthing bodies going on in rural Mexco for some time in recent history.

If you don't know the context for this woman because you do not know the birthing climate there, then the stories you make up about what it was like fall very short of what it most likely was!

No one said a C-section wasn't necessary, muse. You and everyone else in the world will not know what kind of FTP (if it was) happened in that birth, babies position, etc. We don't even know if she had previous c-sections (although I'd bet dollars to doughnuts she did!)

I do not understand why a woman gave birth eight times and apparently had little to no plan for this ninth birth. UCers get all sorts of flack for being reckless and irresponsible for the baby so it would seem that eight births would have produced some kind of idea in her head about a possible plan for the timeline she might face. Maybe not.

[djs_girl517]

Originally posted by muse
What an incredible amount of judgement going on here! And what an American-centric view some people are spouting.

This woman lived in a rural setting, no electricity, no water, 8 hrs from the nearest hospital. Greaseball if you believe so strongly in homebirth why do you believe this woman should have driven to a hospital early on (where they very likely would have done a C-section automatically)? She had already given birth a number of times, and by the sounds of it is an empowered woman who knows her own body. The baby wasn't coming out vaginally (IT HAPPENS! Don't go slamming people who need C sections, sometimes they ARE necessary) so she took drastic measures. Call it mama instinct. She knew what she had to do to save the baby's life. She survived, the baby survived. Shouldn't we all be very happy for them, and impressed with her strength and wisdom?

ITA

[candiland]

Muse, I'm totally confused by your post


We simply want to know the details of WHY this happened. Greaseball was simply saying that if you know you will need a cesarean - and, contrary to popular belief, homebirth advocates realize some women NEED cesareans: - why are you near your due date eight hours away from a hospital?


And if she did not know she needed a cesarean, how did she know she needed one so quickly and drastically? Those of us who study birth know that there are factors that would tell us a cesarean may be needed ASAP - a prolapsed cord, low to no heart tones for an extended period of time, etc. - we are simply wondering what happened to make this woman think she needed a cesarean so quickly. It doesn't say in any of the articles.

How can this be misconstrued to say we are judging this woman? Just because we want to know more information?


Or, if she had been brainwashed by the med. establishment that she could only deliver by c/birth, she may have totally panicked when she went into labor or hit transition or whatever and cut it out herself.

Wondering these things out loud is in, no way, shape or form, judging her..........

[muse]

I don't have time to go digging through the thread for specific posts, so forgive me, but there are posts here judging the woman concerned as doing something irresponsible.

What's this thing about her knowing she needed a C-section so quickly? Do we know how long she was in labour? What difference does it make?. She did not have the option of getting to a hospital at that point. She took drastic action to try and save her baby's life. I have great admiration for that.

[Greaseball]

My beef is that women who choose UC or even regular homebirth are always told that they "could have killed their baby" even when the baby was born much healthier than hospital babies.

Here is a woman who truly could have killed her baby and she is being compared to a saint? Who knows, maybe she had a transverse baby, cord prolapse, placenta previa, and truly needed the c-section. Maybe everything will be fine for the baby. But why is she a saint and other women are irresponsible?

If she is a saint then so is every other woman who gives birth at home. I've read stories from women who have HBACs even after 3 and 4 classical incisions! They are the saints to me.

[cottonwood]

It's true that without the details, it is impossible to judge the situation. I mean, for all we know maybe she thought she could do a UC just fine, but then there was a cord prolapse and she knew she didn't have time for a professional cesarean, so she did it herself.

It's not that such an action is invalid, but that the press and general public seem completely unconcerned with the why of it -- the focus is all on her courage to cut herself open.

What if there was no emergency? What if her decision was based on an irrational fear instilled in her by the birth culture down there? Then, regardless of her courage, what we are looking at is a travesty.

It matters.

[eilonwy]

Originally posted by candiland
We simply want to know the details of WHY this happened. Greaseball was simply saying that if you know you will need a cesarean - and, contrary to popular belief, homebirth advocates realize some women NEED cesareans: - why are you near your due date eight hours away from a hospital?

It's her ninth baby... that means she had other kids at home and other obligations.

And she didn't just "call a nurse"; her son came home and she told him to go and get the nurse. The way I read that article, it didn't sound like she had a phone.

If she didn't have a phone, what makes you think she had a car and time to do whatever it would have taken to get to a hospital that's an 8-hour drive? She might have had to walk it, for crying out loud! Can you imagine *walking* a trip like that in your last few weeks of pregnancy? I sure as heck can't; I don't even like to be in a car when I'm that big.

It's very easy for an American to say "What was she doing so far away from a hospital that close to her due date?" because you make several assumptions:

#1--That she knew her due date at all, and how close to it she was. She was almost certainly able to estimate about when the baby would come, but she may have known as little as "sometime in the spring".

#2--That she had access to prenatal care. There was nothing in that article to suggest that she had had any prenatal care at all.

#3--That she had a way to get to the hospital. This is more than just transportation, this involves making arrangements for your other children, etc. The transportation aspect alone is intimidating, but I seriously doubt she could just call a neighbor to come and do her work around the house until she got back with the baby.

Is this woman more of a hero in my eyes than American women who choose to homebirth? Absolutely. She made a very difficult decision, and she went through with what needed to be done. For Americans who choose homebirth, the issues they have to overcome (if any) are far less extreme and, imo, less noteworthy. Oh, your friends all think you're crazy? If that's the worst you have to deal with, I'm sure that that woman in Mexico (and many others) would be glad to trade places with you.

[IslandMamma]

Judgement

Here are quotes from this thread:

"Here is a woman who truly could have killed her baby and she is being compared to a saint?"

"If you don't know the context for this woman because you do not know the birthing climate there, then the stories you make up about what it was like fall very short of what it most likely was!"

"If I knew I had to have a c-section and didn't live anywhere near a hospital, I would find a way to get there before I was in labor, maybe as early as 37 weeks. Hitchhike, take a bus, whatever."

"If I thought we were going to die, I'd rather we die in peace and not in agony with a profuse wound."

"I think that what she did was probably a result of programming from the medical community"

"Funny how vaginal homebirths are given very little support, but a home cesarean is."

I'm not meaning to pick on anyone, but these, at least to me, come across as very judgemental, and I would absolutely take issue with many of the statements.

I almost never post on this forum for this very reason. Heck, I feel safer in activism! Truth is, NONE OF US know the story, and we are judging purely on speculation. Who among us wouldn't do what we felt best for our child in a moment of crisis, whether it be real or perceived?

Why do there always have to be sides taken? My feelings are that passing judgements on births that we don't know all the facts about just serves to divide us. Birthing is most likely the most powerful event any of us will ever know (other than dying), and it's so emotional and HUGE. What galls me is how quick many of us are to criticize and critique a woman's birth when we can't be in her shoes (or uterus, lol), feeling her emotions and struggle intimately.

I fully believe in and support homebirth-- my next child will be a homebirth, and my first was intended as one. But there's an attitude about birth that many women, and on the flip side, the medical community, seem to cop-- if you don't do it "our way" then you are harming your baby, or you are a product of societal pressue, that I feel does a disservice to women. When will we ever embrace that truly radical birthing is supporting a woman's choice, no matter what it is? IT IS HER CHOICE.

That said, I think the medical climate is hideous, and the answer lies in education. I don't know this woman's history or the birth climate where she lives (unless you lived with her I don't think anyone here can say so either), but am certainly not one to say she's less of a mother for her choices.

[Lucky Charm]

DH: "Now that's 'Taking Charge of Your Fertility.'"

:

My conversation with my husband goes like this:
me: a woman performed a c-section at home on herself!
dh:are you serious? (he is eating an apple)
me: yes!
dh: Is she a friend of yours?

[Susu]

:LOL

thank you sweetbaby. this thread needed that!