democratic household and whole life unschooling is there a difference?

[Stacey B]

DH and I have been playing around with vocabulary and I was trying to explain the difference, but I got so tangled in my explanation that I'm not sure any more if there is a difference? We consider ourselves a democratic household where we take everyone's needs and wants into account and work together to make it a peaceful place for all of us, that means that there are still things that we all have to do to have our lives continue to function happily (we joke and call it the bureaucrat work). What do you guys think about the differences.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Stacey B 

DH and I have been playing around with vocabulary and I was trying to explain the difference, but I got so tangled in my explanation that I'm not sure any more if there is a difference? We consider ourselves a democratic household where we take everyone's needs and wants into account and work together to make it a peaceful place for all of us, that means that there are still things that we all have to do to have our lives continue to function happily (we joke and call it the bureaucrat work). What do you guys think about the differences.

I think a household can be democratic in nature even if kids are in school. That's one main difference.

Secondly, the "whole-life," or "radical" unschoolers I have interacted with do not force their kids to do the bureaucrat work. The kids are in charge of their own lives.

[Cyllya]

I've never heard the term democratic household, but I notice the term itself doesn't imply any ideas about education.

I'm guessing both philosophies have a lot of flexibility as far as rules, there are still some things the child is required to achieve, e.g. refrain from punching baby sister in the face (just picking an extreme example to make sure it was something we all agreed on). I'm guessing democratic households could consider certain academic activities to be something a child "needs" to do, whereas unschoolers definitely wouldn't.

[Stacey B]

When we talk about things that need to get done we're talking more about cleaning the dishes and paying the bills, in terms of education our particular take is that if we are choosing to have him at home to live/learn then it is our responsibility to help him explore what he is interested in, at 5 he needs our help to find the resources, but beyond that we follow an unschooling philosophy for learning for all of us.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Stacey B 

When we talk about things that need to get done we're talking more about cleaning the dishes and paying the bills....

Yes, I know. Whole-life philosophy is, in a nutshell, that kids should not be made to do anything they don't want to do. Life should be happy. All the time. Always.

In case it's not obvious, I'm not a whole-life unschooler. We're regular unschoolers....in other words, we have a democratic household. I call it consensual living. Whole-life unschoolers tell me that my family is not a "real" unschooling family.

[moominmamma]

I'm not sure I like the term democratic in this context. Our family works more according to a consensus model, with a generous shake of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" rather than on a "majority rules" model, which is what democracy suggests. In our case, ability might include the ability to draw on the wisdom of experience, and need might include emotional neediness or degree of investment in a particular outcome. None of it is black and white, of course. But when we have disagreements in our family of six I very much prefer to work together to find a mutually agreeable alternative than to get into a process of negotiating coalitions to over-rule those who disagree with you.

I completely disagree that the "whole life unschooling philosophy" is about never doing anything you don't want to and always being happy. My kids do plenty of things in their educational lives that they don't particularly enjoy in the moment. They do those things because experience, and people they trust, have taught them that sometimes relatively disagreeable grunt-work has to be done in order to get to something longer-term that you really want. So my 8-year-old violinist daughter willingly practices the 3-octave scales she finds tedious because she knows that this will get her to the point where she can capably handle the advanced repertoire and orchestral experience she craves. And it goes the same way with non-educational things in our family too. My 8- and 12-year-olds spent the day cleaning out a long-neglected cabin full of mildew and dustbunnies and garbage and heaps of useless stored junk. It was horrid work, but they set to it purposefully and without being coerced. Why? Because it will allow us to re-assign room functions in our house over the course of the next 2 or 3 months, and will give all of us more useable space for the things we want to do. 

My kids wash dishes because they like to have clean dishes to eat off and a clean kitchen in which to cook. They studied grammar and punctuation (non-conventionally, but studied it nonetheless) because they wanted to have decent writing styles that would allow them to be taken seriously when communicating in writing with people about things that are important to them.

I think parents have an important job to do in helping our kids learn to see the connections between work now and results later -- and between individual actions and community repercussions. That's what maturity is about, and I don't think it's doing unschooled kids any favours to let them live life without a view to the larger picture. As adults we probably know a bit more than our children about the long-term and broad-scale effects of particular actions and choices. We need to pass that wisdom on to our kids. And I very much believe that we can pass that wisdom on in the unschooling way: through modeling, facilitation, strewing opportunities, authentic conversation, support and mentoring. Coercion is one possible way to get kids to learn proper punctuation, or to do the dishes. But there are definitely other ways!

Miranda

[2xy]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

I completely disagree that the "whole life unschooling philosophy" is about never doing anything you don't want to and always being happy. My kids do plenty of things in their educational lives that they don't particularly enjoy in the moment. They do those things because experience, and people they trust, have taught them that sometimes relatively disagreeable grunt-work has to be done in order to get to something longer-term that you really want. So my 8-year-old violinist daughter willingly practices the 3-octave scales she finds tedious because she knows that this will get her to the point where she can capably handle the advanced repertoire and orchestral experience she craves. And it goes the same way with non-educational things in our family too. My 8- and 12-year-olds spent the day cleaning out a long-neglected cabin full of mildew and dustbunnies and garbage and heaps of useless stored junk. It was horrid work, but they set to it purposefully and without being coerced. Why? Because it will allow us to re-assign room functions in our house over the course of the next 2 or 3 months, and will give all of us more useable space for the things we want to do. 

It sounds as though they realize the reason for doing those things and willingly did them. That is different than being forced or coerced into doing something one is unwilling to do.

Look, I'm just going by what I've been told by whole-life/radical unschoolers over the years, and what I read in blogs and articles on the subject. So please, if you disagree....tell me what the difference is between unschooling and whole-life unschooling. Why does the latter need the "whole-life" qualifier if there is no difference?
 

[Attila the Honey]

Originally Posted by 2xy 

Yes, I know. Whole-life philosophy is, in a nutshell, that kids should not be made to do anything they don't want to do. Life should be happy. All the time. Always.

In case it's not obvious, I'm not a whole-life unschooler. We're regular unschoolers....in other words, we have a democratic household. I call it consensual living. Whole-life unschoolers tell me that my family is not a "real" unschooling family.

I've never heard it described that way, and I would whole-heartedly disagree with that description.  How can life be happy all the time?  If that were the case,'whole life unschooling' most assuredly does not work.

I think Moominmama described it well - there are things that kids dislike doing, things they do that don't make them happy, but they do it on their own accord because they know the result is something they want to happen.

[Stacey B]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

I'm not sure I like the term democratic in this context. Our family works more according to a consensus model, with a generous shake of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" rather than on a "majority rules" model, which is what democracy suggests. In our case, ability might include the ability to draw on the wisdom of experience, and need might include emotional neediness or degree of investment in a particular outcome. None of it is black and white, of course. But when we have disagreements in our family of six I very much prefer to work together to find a mutually agreeable alternative than to get into a process of negotiating coalitions to over-rule those who disagree with you.

This is why I am bringing this up here, I am not sure democratic is the right word for how we live. We don't use a majority rules method, but we sometimes think of ourselves as a small country  where we all have to work together to make it the place that we want it to be. We've also used it to express that we don't make rules for DS but we have understandings about what we all need for our lives to run smoothly, for example DH has a hard time when the main area of the house is very messy, so we try to respect this and keep it straitened.

On the educational end of this DS is interested in making architectural models so I am helping him to understand scale and beginning geometry, which is hard for him but he wants to make a model similar to the ones he sees in the window of the near-by architects office (yes I know he isn't 5 quite but buildings and design fascinate him). In this "country" model of the family I understand that it is my role to make available tools, information and other such "things" for him to explore his interests.

I suppose we don't need to have a single word to describe what we are doing, but as a writer I am drawn to creating/finding precise vocabulary for things.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by 2xy 

Look, I'm just going by what I've been told by whole-life/radical unschoolers over the years, and what I read in blogs and articles on the subject. So please, if you disagree....tell me what the difference is between unschooling and whole-life unschooling. Why does the latter need the "whole-life" qualifier if there is no difference?

Whole-life unschooling takes what unschooling is to the body of academic learning and applies it to the rest of life: learning about chores, family relationships and responsibilities, community action and involvement, nutrition, exercise, sleep, hygeine and so on, things not normally thought of as part of the realm of 'schooling.'

• If your kid doesn't want to learn the timestables by drilling them at age 8, you don't force her. Instead you encourage her to learn what she's interested in and trust that by living a rich, varied life in proximity to caring, involved adults and mentors she will eventually discover her own reasons and methods for learning them. That's unschooling. 
• If your kid doesn't want to go to bed every night at 8:15, you don't force her. Instead you encourage her to go to bed when she feels the time is right, and trust that eventually by living her life in a caring family she'll discover the reasons and the rhythms that work well for her sleep-wake cycle and for her participation in family and community life. That's whole-life unschooling ... because it takes the principles of unschooling and applies them to non-academic areas of learning.

Yes, you're correct that my kids did that grammar/punctuation learning, or their music scale practice, willingly. But my point was that it didn't necessarily make them happy to do that work. It wasn't intrinsically enjoyable. It got them something they valued, so it was worth doing, but they didn't honestly enjoy it much. You had suggested that unschooling, or whole-life unschooling, meant doing just what makes you happy, always, all the time. That's the part I was disagreeing with. I think the key point is that unschooling means doing what has meaning for you whether in an immediate pleasurable sense or, quite often, in the big-picture sense of contributing to the greater good or to your long-term achievement of goals and aspirations. 

Miranda

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Stacey B 

I suppose we don't need to have a single word to describe what we are doing, but as a writer I am drawn to creating/finding precise vocabulary for things.

I'm a writer by inclination if not by profession, and I feel the same way: it helps me to have words to embody concepts. Does "consensual living" work for you? For me at this point in my parenting lfe it feels like a good fit.

Miranda

[Stacey B]

I like consensual living but if I am honest I know that as parents we still have certain rules that we give our son, usually due to our own sanity (as in please stop taking the furniture apart because I'm the one who has to put it back together). So am not sure that it would fit with us.