Any ideas for reducing amount of time to go to sleep?

[JMJ]

DD is almost 27 months old.  It takes an hour to an hour and a half to get her down for sleep every night, starting at the time that I start cuddling her and nursing her, not counting any earlier calming activities.  I would love to gently encourage her to go to sleep faster, but nothing seems to be working.  I would love any suggestions.  Here's what we've tried:

Our old bedtime routine:

-9:00 PM: Mom, Dad, and Toddler get into bed.  Toddler rolls around or throws herself around bed, often running into parents, many times painfully so.  She snuggles up to Mom to nurse, but not for very long before continuing to play around the bed.  Dad turns his back to try to ignore her, and he doesn't see her launching herself at his head.  Toddler notes hearing airplanes, helicopters, sirens, ice maker, birds, thunder, finding body parts, etc.

-9:15 PM: Toddler snuggles in to nurse but does not fall asleep but will roll away every several minutes and then roll back to nurse more.  This is sometimes accompanied by her wanting to talk about something that she heard, something that she wants to do, or somebody she wants to see.  If she is ignored, she will repeat what she said again and again.  Dad ignores her.  Mom says, "tomorrow," and the quiet continues.  She is generally quiet enough Dad is sometimes able to start settling for sleep, but he will get woken up several more times by a toddler rolling into him.

-Between 9:45 and 10:00 PM: Toddler finally dozes off.  This is often done by rolling over and wacking Daddy in the head such that he wakes up angry, often waking her up and getting her to nurse again.  If it's 10:00, she might sleep through.

-Between 10:00 and 10:15 PM: Mom is finally able to extract her nipple from a sleeping toddler's mouth, run to the restroom one more time, and start going to sleep herself.

Our new bedtime routine: started about 2 months ago

-8:30 PM: Lower the lights, Dad heads in the bedroom to read.  Mom sits at the computer nursing the toddler, holding creature of choice and blanket.  Toddler asks for each other creature that she could have chosen one by one, asks to hug and kiss Daddy (She did this before we got started), asks to go swimming with various friends and relatives, and various other things and is told that that she can have them/see them/do them another time.  Toddler is reminded several times that she must be gentle with Mommy, but it works out pretty well.  Mom and Toddler negotiate when to switch breasts based on what the Toddler really wants to have and when Mom really can't handle her sucking on that side/that arm going to sleep anymore.

-9:00 PM: Toddler is calm and relaxed.  Every once in a while, she will attempt to twiddle and be corrected, ask for something and be told that she can have it tomorrow, or we will need to negotiate a side change.

-9:30-9:45 PM: Toddler finally dozes off.  Mom waits until she is fully asleep and places her in bed, extracts her nipple while Dad does final inspection of house before bedtime.  Both parents use the restroom and head back to bed, often disturbing Toddler one more time so that she latches on to nurse for another minute before she is asleep enough for Mom to extract her nipple yet again.

-10:00 PM: Mom and Dad start going to sleep.

The last couple nights, we have experimented with moving to bed when she reaches the calm and relaxed stage.  This was followed by the entire previous routine.

When we go to bed later, it takes closer to an hour than an hour and a half, but rarely does she go under an hour.

When we wake her up in the morning and from naps several days in a row to make sure she is really tired, this is sometimes helpful and is usually followed by getting sick.  This does not reset her clock so that she is more ready to go to bed early.

When she chases children around for a long period of time, she usually goes down more quickly, but this is more true for nap time.  This is hard to make happen.  Just playing with children does not do it.  Going for a walk with parents, going to the park, dancing to music, etc does not do it.  It is only active play, usually with older children who she has to work to keep up with for quite a period of time (and I can't choose how they play or replicate it at home) will burn off enough energy that she might go to sleep quickly.

If she is going to take hours to fall asleep, I do prefer sitting at the computer instead of spending so much time lying in a dark room, trying to be quiet so that she will relax, but it takes even more time, and it is completely dependent on nursing.  In bed, she would at least roll over sometimes and let me rub her back, giving my breasts a little bit of a break during that time.  I would hope that we could eventually transition her to not needing to nurse to sleep, and I see the beginning of that happening, but not when she's going to sleep in my lap.  This is the time of day that I am most uncomfortable nursing her.  In my dream world, I would be able to nurse her, and then she could lay in bed, and I could rub her back for several minutes until she falls asleep.

At the same time, the time that she plays around the bed before settling is just dangerous.  She knocks into us, and it hurts.  I want her to associate getting into bed with being calm, not wild.  I just need ideas because I'm not seeing it.

[EmmaJane]

No useful advice... but there must be a secret club for the just-turned-two's out there! I could have written this! Except I lie down with my iPhone instead of sitting at the computer... and we sent Dad to another room several months ago to stop them waking each other up... and DD2 (25 months) also likes to sing very loud off-key songs, in between hugging her stuffies, and switching sides. "That one is EMPTY, mama!"

Last week I tried taking her out for a stroller walk during the witching hour -- your 9:00 to 10:00 is our 8:00 to 9:00. The first two times it worked beatitifully; we chatted quietly as we walked around the neighborhood, and it only took about 15 minutes for her to settle to sleep once we got home. The third time she fell asleep in the stroller; she can't be moved without waking her up; and, once she was awake, it took 2 hours to get her down again. So I'm afraid to try it again.

I do wonder if the solstice/very late sunset is part of the problem?

[JMJ]

Yes, I do think that the longer days are a big part of the problem.  It got much worse as the days got longer, and I've noticed it's been easier when we travel North or on the East side of a time zone.  (though it could be that she's more engaged in activity when we travel)  That doesn't help me to know much what to do, though.  Maybe I just need to hear from moms of older toddlers who can tell us that it gets better...

[NZJMama]

My 4yo has always had a hard time settling down at night and unfortunately he still does. Our ped recommended giving him melatonin and it helped a lot, but also gave him diarrhea. I was also reluctant to use it on a regular basis because I didn't want him to think that he needed "medicine" to go to sleep. I have tried grinding up pumpkin seeds and mixing it with milk and honey and that seems to help some, but he really doesn't care for the texture of the pumpkin seeds so he won't drink it anymore.

I wish I had more advice, but I am curious to see what other suggestions people have. My 6yo and my 18 month old have a much easier time settling down and going to sleep. So, in my experience it just depends on the kid.

[JMJ]

Interesting, NZJMama.  I don't like the idea of giving my child medication to go to sleep, but I hadn't considered calming foods.  Could you tell me what the pumpkin seeds is supposed to do?  I haven't heard of that.

[CI Mama]

Longer days are affecting our household, too. We were able to get DD to sleep between 8:30-9:30 (most nights) during the winter; now it's mostly between 9:30-10:00.

JMJ, I love the detail with which you've described your nighttime routine! Sounds soooooo familiar. It has always taken us 1.5-2 hours to get DD to sleep. Her body just will. not. settle. down. It's so frustrating!

Having said that, around 27 months is when we started to see some hopeful improvements. We're always trying things to help DD sleep better, but around 27 months it started to actually work! She slept for 8 hours at a stretch for the first time ever. That was amazing...I can't even describe how amazing. Over the next few months, more new skills cropped up...for example, she started laying in bed while awake and letting us read and/or sing to her. She wasn't falling asleep that way...but previously she could not even lay still in bed for any amount of time, unless she was already asleep.

So, here we are...she's 33 months + a few weeks...and she still has a hard time settling down to sleep, and our routine takes a long time. But there have been a lot of positives:

1) She no longer nurses to sleep most nights. We do nurse at bedtime, but I'm not a hostage to her breastfeeding because it's the only way to get her to sleep. Sometimes she falls asleep while nursing, but usually not.

2) My partner is able to participate much more in getting DD to sleep. In fact, often DD prefers that DP put her down. It is good for all of us, and it means that DP & I can "tag team" so that we can actually get some things done while the other is working on the wind-down.

3) She will fall asleep while laying still in her own bed. I never thought this would be possible. It requires that someone read and/or sing to her, sometimes we rub her feet and/or she drinks milk from a bottle. But she does get to sleep that way, most nights. (True confessions: some nights we park her on the couch in front of the tv and play "Harold & the Purple Crayon" until she falls asleep. Sometimes that works as a last ditch effort, not always).

4) Here's the kicker...we've got her in pre-school and we just moved her to a schedule so that she's there during naptime. And she naps at school with no problem. Just lays down on her mat, closes her eyes, and goes to sleep. I've been trying her whole life to get her to do that! It reveals to me that sleep is possible for this child.

I wish I could say that all these positive developments are due to my outstanding parenting skills and my growing ability to give my child what she needs. Nope. I'm just doing what I have to do to survive, always trying new stuff in hopes that it will work, and waiting for her neurological growth to kick in.

Hang in there, mama. Change happens. Things do get better.

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by CI Mama 

Longer days are affecting our household, too. We were able to get DD to sleep between 8:30-9:30 (most nights) during the winter; now it's mostly between 9:30-10:00.

JMJ, I love the detail with which you've described your nighttime routine! Sounds soooooo familiar. It has always taken us 1.5-2 hours to get DD to sleep. Her body just will. not. settle. down. It's so frustrating!

Having said that, around 27 months is when we started to see some hopeful improvements. We're always trying things to help DD sleep better, but around 27 months it started to actually work! She slept for 8 hours at a stretch for the first time ever. That was amazing...I can't even describe how amazing. Over the next few months, more new skills cropped up...for example, she started laying in bed while awake and letting us read and/or sing to her. She wasn't falling asleep that way...but previously she could not even lay still in bed for any amount of time, unless she was already asleep.

So, here we are...she's 33 months + a few weeks...and she still has a hard time settling down to sleep, and our routine takes a long time. But there have been a lot of positives:

1) She no longer nurses to sleep most nights. We do nurse at bedtime, but I'm not a hostage to her breastfeeding because it's the only way to get her to sleep. Sometimes she falls asleep while nursing, but usually not.

2) My partner is able to participate much more in getting DD to sleep. In fact, often DD prefers that DP put her down. It is good for all of us, and it means that DP & I can "tag team" so that we can actually get some things done while the other is working on the wind-down.

3) She will fall asleep while laying still in her own bed. I never thought this would be possible. It requires that someone read and/or sing to her, sometimes we rub her feet and/or she drinks milk from a bottle. But she does get to sleep that way, most nights. (True confessions: some nights we park her on the couch in front of the tv and play "Harold & the Purple Crayon" until she falls asleep. Sometimes that works as a last ditch effort, not always).

4) Here's the kicker...we've got her in pre-school and we just moved her to a schedule so that she's there during naptime. And she naps at school with no problem. Just lays down on her mat, closes her eyes, and goes to sleep. I've been trying her whole life to get her to do that! It reveals to me that sleep is possible for this child.

I wish I could say that all these positive developments are due to my outstanding parenting skills and my growing ability to give my child what she needs. Nope. I'm just doing what I have to do to survive, always trying new stuff in hopes that it will work, and waiting for her neurological growth to kick in.

Hang in there, mama. Change happens. Things do get better.

Thank you so much for your post.  It's good to hear that things get better and skills do develop.  DD has been sleeping longer stretches as well, more like 5 or 6 hours, but I'm excited about that.  The thing about pre-school gets me too.  I used to work at a daycare before I became a mom, and all of our 12-24 month olds would like down for a nap and be out within minutes, maybe with a bit of back rubbing.  It would take 3 of us 30-45 minutes to go from 6 toddlers at the table for lunch to 6 toddlers with fresh diapers, on their mats asleep.  There's a part of me that feels like a failure as a mom that I could gently and smoothly do that with every toddler who walked in my classroom and not with my own daughter.  sigh

[lifeguard]

27 months was when we made MAJOR changes to ds' bedtime routine, for a couple reasons. One was that I just could NOT handle spending so long lying with him any longer & two was that he was finally verbal enough to really understand what I was telling him & could verbalize to me what he was understanding or not understanding & his full needs.

We started by cutting out the nursing which took a few weeks.

Then we told him that in one week (which he didn't have much concept of but we kept telling him each day it was getting closer) that I would no longer be lying with him.

The night we started we did the first part of his routine (teeth, pj's, books, cuddles) & then I left the room & sat in the hall with a book. Over the course of several weeks we went from me being in the hall to dh being in his office (beside ds' bedroom) to neither of us being upstairs. The first few nights were a little bit bothersome (I think night 3 was the worst) but he adapted to the change really quickly.

While sitting in the hallway I basically ignored him unless he was really upset or trying to leave the room but I let him wander around the room, play with things, look at books whatever. If he got noisy I reminded him it was time to sleep & if he tried to leave his room I brought him back in. When he did get upset I would go in, "retuck" him in & give him lots of kisses & hugs. I also reiterated many times that I loved him & that I was proud of him for going to sleep on his own. I told him I knew it was hard to do something new but he was doing a great job.

I must admit things are SOOOOO much nicer now that he goes to sleep on his own. Yes, most nights he takes an hour - sometimes longer but we get a little bit of adult time & I think he actually enjoys his quiet time in his room. We are fairly lax about his activities as long as he is quiet & stays in his room.

And I'm sure people will say the bedtime is too late but we are fairly late here too (usually around 9:30) but trying to go earlier just turned things into more of a fight & this is working for us.

[crunchy_mommy]

We deal with long bedtimes too... One thing that helped us a few months ago to go from 3+ hours to about an hour (sometimes less!), was not nursing to sleep any more. We do his last nursing session about an hour before bedtime, and then read, play, etc. until he's ready to go into the bedroom & try sleeping. It was an adjustment at first (him screaming that he wanted more milk!) but it was such a huge difference once he got used to it. It's almost like he was staying awake specifically to nurse. (As a bonus, he actually started sleeping longer stretches when he stopped nursing to sleep!)

I also discovered DS is one of those kids that needs active play just before settling down, so a bunch of quiet, calming activities didn't work for him. We read a book or two, then he needs to jump on the bed, do a little yoga, pretend to climb up the walls, play hide & seek, etc. then I can turn off the light & he'll very often go to sleep almost immediately. It's hard because I'm the opposite, I need a lot of wind-down time, so after all that playing with him, it often takes ME an extra hour to go to sleep!

So I guess my suggestion would be to try something that is totally opposite to what you're doing now -- something totally counter-intuitive, even. Give her a few days to adjust & see what happens...

Also, DS's bedtime is usually 11/11:30pm. Yup, very late, but after tons of experimenting, that's when he falls asleep best, sleeps the longest, and keeps him happiest throughout the day. I feel comfortable doing this because I'm able to arrange our days around it so he can sleep in very late. So you might try a much earlier or much later bedtime...

[LadyCatherine185]

My DS started taking a long time to go to sleep when he was ready to cut his nap. It sounds like she just isn't tired enough for sleep until 10 pm. Can you have her play until 9:30, and then start nursing/bedtime routine? Or, have you tried cutting out her nap and putting her to bed earlier at night? When my DS1 cut his nap, his bedtime went from taking an hour to get to sleep and finally asleep at 10-10:30 to going to bed at 7:00 and taking about 5 minutes to get him to sleep.

[MadiMamacita]

DS takes longer to fall asleep when he isn't really tired yet. On days when he has had lots of tiring activity he is out almost immediately.

We used to have a much longer bedtime ritual, but these days we do pjs, brush teeth, lay in bed and read 4 books, then lights out for a few songs or cuddles and we both end up falling asleep. On nights when he isn't really tired yet, the lights out part gets prolonged and there is much more whining.

[JMJ]

Wow!  Thank you ladies for all the wonderful ideas.  I was sure I had thought of them all, but you ladies are helping me to think outside the box.  I do think we need to make a drastic change.  DH and I just have to figure out how that will work for our family.  Lifeguard, your routine sounds heavenly to me right now.  I read your response just as DD dozed off in my arms last night, and I was processing it in my dreams all night.  I was trying to pinpoint what is going on that is really bothering me, and I was realizing that it's not so much the time that it takes her to fall asleep or the time she goes to sleep as much as I care that I don't want to spend hours getting her down every night, and DH needs to be able to go to sleep around 9:30 because he has to get up early for work.

Probably for the first time ever, I'm open to working toward not nursing her to sleep, but I'd like to do it very slowly and gently.  Lifeguard, could you tell me more about what you did there?

I could be open to putting her in her own room, but we've got a lot of decluttering to do before we could make that wok.  Having DH sleep in a different place is also not possible right now.  We live on  650 square feet, so that complicates things.  There's just nowhere to go.  I'm wondering, though, if we could work towards having her go to read books in bed, go to sleep if she wants, and then we join her at 9 or a little after.

The difficulty with moving the time is that DH usually gets home between 8 and 8:30 most nights, and no matter what I've done to get her down at that point, I have to start all over.  Last night, he got home at 8:50, and DD fell asleep at almost exactly 10.  I wonder if she was alone in our room when he got home, if he would be able to just come in and quietly say goodnight.

I'm still working out the details of this in my mind, so I'd still appreciate more help with my brainstorm.  Thank you so much, mamas, for helping me keep an open mind about this.  I want to figure out all the details before we try implementing a new routine.  I think that a lot of making this work is to choose what to do and let her get used to it.  Going back and forth on where the boundaries are is not helpful.

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by JMJ 

Thank you so much for your post.  It's good to hear that things get better and skills do develop.  DD has been sleeping longer stretches as well, more like 5 or 6 hours, but I'm excited about that.  The thing about pre-school gets me too.  I used to work at a daycare before I became a mom, and all of our 12-24 month olds would like down for a nap and be out within minutes, maybe with a bit of back rubbing.  It would take 3 of us 30-45 minutes to go from 6 toddlers at the table for lunch to 6 toddlers with fresh diapers, on their mats asleep.  There's a part of me that feels like a failure as a mom that I could gently and smoothly do that with every toddler who walked in my classroom and not with my own daughter.  sigh

I used to work in a daycare, too, and I was also a nanny for 2 years. I've worked with kids of all ages in lots of different settings, and I just knew that all that experience was going to make me a great parent! Well, maybe it is helping, but parenting is whole different ball of wax. Kids behave differently when they are in a group setting. Even being a nanny is not like being a mom. It has been humbling to realize how much and how little I know.

One other thought...I spent a night away from home a couple of months ago (to visit a friend) and although I was super worried that DD would have a horrible time without me, it was a pleasant surprise for all of us that she did just fine. In fact, that marked the beginning of her sleeping all night in her own bed most of the time (she has a mattress on the floor next to our bed). It certainly adjusted my estimation of what she was capable of. I have to keep reminding myself that I can expect more of my toddler now. She's not the baby she used to be! She responds to structure in ways that she didn't previously.

Keep us posted on your progress...

[mamacolleen]

DD will be 2 next month. We have worked a lot on making bedtime mangeable for me over the past few months.

A couple things that I know have worked for us:

1) I still nurse in the bed (it's the last part of our routine) but I put clear limits on nursing at that time. She is allowed 2 sides only, no switching back and forth. Once she's done both sides, that's it, the babas go to sleep and she has to also. Like you, the bedtime nursing used to be my least favourite with all the latching on and off and dragging the process out. She didn't really like the new rules in the beginning but she totally gets it now and tells me "2 sides mama and then sleep".

2) Only one parent in the room at any time. She really needs decreased stimulation to allow her little body to physically relax. Extra people (bodies to roll into or  talk to), singing, talking, etc just wind her up. Once the nursing is done, I give her a kiss and say good-night, close my eyes and lie beside her and don't engage in any way. She's free to roll around and talk to herself (quietly) and do whatever she needs to do but I don't respond verbally to her. If she's working herself up too much than I might gently remind her in minimal words that it's time to sleep and be quiet. But this I keep to a minimum. Sometimes it feels like I'm ignoring her, but it really helps speed the process along. If she's sitting up too much or kicking me or whatever, I just gently move her body away from me slightly and help her lie down again. I try not to talk at all while doing this anymore. I focus on allowing myself to relax.

3) We fiddled a lot with bedtimes to find  the one that works for her and helps her to sleep quickly. I tried for a long time to make that earlier (like 7/7:30) but she wouldn't go to sleep for an hour +, even with the changes above. So now, I take her up at 8:30 and she's asleep by 9pm. It may take some fiddling to determine what's the best bedtime for her.

Good luck!

[Kedrosami]

No advice, but for a moment of comic relief...have you read this book? http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1617750255/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1308777192&sr=8-1

If you search for the title and "Samuel L. Jackson" on YouTube you may be able to find the audio version read by him.

[lifeguard]

The way we stopped nursing him to sleep was:

1. warned him ahead it was coming

2. I changed nursing him in bed to nursing him downstairs (which he lost interest in within 2 weeks)

3. We kept the rest of the routine the same (we didn't stop lying with him for a couple months after I stopped nursing him down)

4. I worked really hard at my patience. Dh helped with this 'cause he could come in & lie with him for awhile when I needed a break.

5. We were consistent but gentle about it, lots of reassurance & praise.

[NZJMama]

Originally Posted by JMJ 

Interesting, NZJMama.  I don't like the idea of giving my child medication to go to sleep, but I hadn't considered calming foods.  Could you tell me what the pumpkin seeds is supposed to do?  I haven't heard of that.

Yeah, the melatonin is not technically medication, but when he began asking for it to help him go to sleep it made me nervous. I heard about the pumpkin seeds on Dr. Oz (I never wach TV, but I was at my Mom's and it was on). Apparently, they have something in them that is supposed to help sleep. I think it's similar to chamomile, but more potent. Sorry, I'm not sure of the details. I figured it couldn't hurt since it was only pumpkin seeds. So I ground up some pumpkin seeds and mixed it with milk and honey. He drank about half of it and fell asleep much quicker than normal. Unfortunately he didn't really care for the taste and texture and I can't get him to drink it again. I believe that the seeds have to actually be ground up for the greatest benefit. Anyway, good luck, you've had some great suggestions here.