Just got back from the ER - Am I questioning myself again???

[MsLondon]

Hi Everyone!

Its been a while since Ive been here.  DD is 4 in August and we just got back from the ER.

Basically, she was complaining her head hurt and was vomiting, she had fallen off the bed and I wanted to make sure she wasnt concussed.  Turns out she is ok and has a viral infection, the fall was incidental.

They asked if she was vaxed, I said no.  anyway when they knew she was ok, the ped comes in and heres the conversation:

'ok before you go I just want to give u my 2 cents ok?  (I thought oh here we go)  ''there has been an outbreak of measles and I really think you should think about this carefully ok?  are you going abroad soon?'

I said no.

'oh because there was an outbreak in Europe'. 

I told her we had just come back from the UK in April.

she said 'Oh thats actually where it happened'

I replied that i know alot of children there dont have the MMR. 

And she said 'yes because of that doctor who has now lost his license for falsifying information'

I just didnt get into it with her, she was actually quite nice and said

'ok Im stepping off my soap bo,x I just wanted to mention it to you ok?'

Honestly when I was going to the ER I was so worried about DD, I totally forgot that her vax status was going to come up!

Im not sure if Im 2nd guessing stuff now - Im pretty confident in my decsision not to vax but if DD was in there with some VPD, I dont think I would forgive myself - I know H wouldnt!

Maybe I need to look around these boards again for some reaffirmation

[Chloebelle]

That's why I come here ;)

It's tough, no matter what road you take. I personally am more afraid of the long term affects of vaccines than my kids catching VPD. I think if you look at each disease that we vaccinate against, it's a lot less scary. For instance, Measles was no more than a mild childhood illness when I was young, and in fact, I had it. So did my friends and family. So many untruths and fear mongering out there to get us to comply. It's no wonder we feel unsure at times.

There are some great threads on this page that have great info, so I hope you get a chance to read a few and feel better about your decision!

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by MsLondon 

Hi Everyone!

Its been a while since Ive been here.  DD is 4 in August and we just got back from the ER.

Basically, she was complaining her head hurt and was vomiting, she had fallen off the bed and I wanted to make sure she wasnt concussed.  Turns out she is ok and has a viral infection, the fall was incidental.

They asked if she was vaxed, I said no.  anyway when they knew she was ok, the ped comes in and heres the conversation:

'ok before you go I just want to give u my 2 cents ok?  (I thought oh here we go)  ''there has been an outbreak of measles and I really think you should think about this carefully ok?  are you going abroad soon?'

I said no.

'oh because there was an outbreak in Europe'. 

I told her we had just come back from the UK in April.

she said 'Oh thats actually where it happened'

I replied that i know alot of children there dont have the MMR. 

And she said 'yes because of that doctor who has now lost his license for falsifying information'

I just didnt get into it with her, she was actually quite nice and said

'ok Im stepping off my soap bo,x I just wanted to mention it to you ok?'

Honestly when I was going to the ER I was so worried about DD, I totally forgot that her vax status was going to come up!

Im not sure if Im 2nd guessing stuff now - Im pretty confident in my decsision not to vax but if DD was in there with some VPD, I dont think I would forgive myself - I know H wouldnt!

Maybe I need to look around these boards again for some reaffirmation

What if your dd was in there for a vax reaction? What if she had a permanent reaction?

What if she was hospitalized for a VAD? What if she got better after treatment? It seems a little off to not forgive yourself for getting your dd medical help if she needs it- especially if it helps her to get better!

Which do you feel more capable of handling- illness and its potential needs or vaccine damage and its potential needs?

[BenimBebek]

My DD is 4 and I have to review the numbers again every 6 months to remind myself why i dont vax the kids.  its scary, especially with scare tactics drs use.  i say just look at the case rates and the adverse events rates.  and the look up each vpd and re-familiarize yourself with the risks of complication.  remember, getting a vpd isnt a death sentence in fact many are totally fine and can help build good immune system function, its those pesky "complications" that are the problem and they are much more common in infants under 6 months of age.  so, even if your child gets a vpd, that isnt such a bad thing.

my dd has had rotavirus and a suspected case of pertussis.  they both sucked, but because i read all about them i knew for rota to take her to the er if she got dehydrated (which she did and we did and she got 2 hours of iv liquid and recovered super fast).  My friends baby who is totally vax'd also got rota recently and the only reason she knew what dehydration even looked like (ie no tears when crying) was because i told her.  her older son also infected her newborn with it.  my new born didnt get it because i got rota when dd was sick with it and so my breastmilk passed immunity to little ds.  no breastmilk immunity if your vaccinated.  

stay strong mama.  you made the right choice, but there is nothing wrong with questioning yourself.  in fact, its that quality that has given your dd such an advantage!!

[SilverMoon010]

I think the below is a very important point when speaking about "VPDs."  I believe many complications from "VPDs" come from lack of education on that particular disease.  In the case of rotavirus, as mentioned below for example, a lot of parents don't even know what to look for in terms of dehydration.  Thus, not able to provide the adequate care to the child (i.e. adequate fluid intake at home or hospital) until it's too late. I think the problem is many people don't read up on these types of diseases since they feel they don't have to since the vaccines are supposed to protect their children from it.  When the vaccine fails, they are clueless on what to do.  Same with measles and other diseases.  After reading about the diseases themselves, you find out that they are not so horrible and there are ways to avoid complications by caring for the child properly.  It's all about continuously keeping yourself educated on these diseases so you can feel confident in how to care for them if they ever do arise.  Measles isn't scary to me now because I have spoken to my mom and many others who have had it and said it's no big deal, but I certainly do appreciate the fact that since I have never experienced it myself (given MMR when young), it seems to be so foreign to me so when I notice myself thinking twice about it, I then research some more on how it's just a normal childhood illness that many kids in the past have gotten and come out healthier from it. However, I did have the CP and I know that was no big deal.  I think it's crazy that people are all hyped up about the CP these days, and since I experienced it, I know for a fact it's no big deal. Kind of like the measles back in the day before there was a vaccine.  Same thing. It makes you realize how far the fear-mongering can travel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

 My friends baby who is totalIly vax'd also got rota recently and the only reason she knew what dehydration even looked like (ie no tears when crying) was because i told her. 

[ILoveMyBabyBird]

i am constantly questioning keeping dd unvaxed...Right now she is just 8 weeks, but since ds was partially vaxed because i didn't know much as a young new parent, i feel like he has some protection, it sucks because sometimes i feel i should just go with the crowd and not feel like an outsider and skirt past the vax talk, but then i think about all my research and there is a reason why i started researching when ds was a baby and decided to stop the vaccines until i came to a decision, maybe i never officially made that decision, maybe i am still debating some vaccines idk, but when in doubt, research again, if you come to a different decision, then you can go from there. As everyone says, you can alway vaccinate, but you cannot unvaccinate. I had a soap box moment when i had dd, a ped at the hospital was concerned i wasn't getting her the hep b. i just fibbed, hah, as he was concerned i was 'one of those parents' that doesn't vaccinate, why open up a can of worms with some random dr. I just shook my head and nodded, lol..When i took dd to the dr. i chose for her (unvax, selective vax friendly) he asked if she had gotten the hep b, we said 'no', he said, 'good', so it just all depends on the dr. in question and in the end it is your decision that you must live with, get the vaxes and live with possible side effects, or not, and live with possible 'outbreaks' that you children 'might' catch that are thousands of miles away many times...I hate to say it but you can always through out the religion word, it shuts many people up when it comes to vaccines... 

[milkybean]

Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 

I think the below is a very important point when speaking about "VPDs."  I believe many complications from "VPDs" come from lack of education on that particular disease.  In the case of rotavirus, as mentioned below for example, a lot of parents don't even know what to look for in terms of dehydration.  Thus, not able to provide the adequate care to the child (i.e. adequate fluid intake at home or hospital) until it's too late. I think the problem is many people don't read up on these types of diseases since they feel they don't have to since the vaccines are supposed to protect their children from it.  When the vaccine fails, they are clueless on what to do.  Same with measles and other diseases.  After reading about the diseases themselves, you find out that they are not so horrible and there are ways to avoid complications by caring for the child properly.  It's all about continuously keeping yourself educated on these diseases so you can feel confident in how to care for them if they ever do arise.

YES.

And it's why I would never want to have a doctor around my child that was merely tolerating us not vaxing.  Because a doc that believes strongly that vaccines save us all won't have paid attention in the classes that taught them how to HELP a person work through a disease, and therefore they are not a good doctor for my purposes.

I have lots of info (even have info about getting through diphtheria, as my great grandfather helped the ONE daughter that got it, out of SEVEN all at home, through the disease.  Didn't get much sleep, but he helped her through), and I want my health care providers to have the same info.

We dealt with rota twice with DS.  Oh what a pain.  But thank goodness I was nursing him.  I pretty much sat in a chair 24/7 with him either sleeping or nursing, the only respite being when he needed a diaper change (which I just tossed in the sink for hubby to deal with when he got home, because the smell was just too much for me).  Was it exhausting?  Yes.  Was it difficult for me to deal with his needs for fluids, especially when he was just getting rid of the fluids quickly?  Oh yes.  Did I keep an eye on him for signs that I wasn't meeting his needs?  of course.  Did ever even ONCE think "gosh I wish I'd gotten him vaxed for this"...no.  (though I'm not sure that there was a vaccine at the time, the one that was out having been stopped for doing hideous things to intestines...which of course only makes sense)

Originally Posted by MsLondon 

Basically, she was complaining her head hurt and was vomiting, she had fallen off the bed and I wanted to make sure she wasnt concussed.  Turns out she is ok and has a viral infection, the fall was incidental.

And she said 'yes because of that doctor who has now lost his license for falsifying information'

I'm not sure that she got that whole thing right.

But regardless, if I'm at the ER for something that was scary, and a doctor decided to take the focus off of the reason for the visit to go on about something not relevant in any way, shape, or form, I would leave immediately, or at the very least call for someone else. 

And, um, she had an infection and he wanted to give her a vaccination?  Uh...has he READ the inserts for the things he's jabbing people with?  Kinda NOT supposed to be sick when getting vaccines....

Stand strong!

Oh and I know they ask, even though it's ridiculous that they do.  I'm just against the soapbox thing, when you're in the ER.  As our kid's ER says, when the emergency is taken care of..."go home, there are sick people here!"

[alimac]

We were at the ER a couple of weeks ago with our 1yr old.  She had been having a low grade fever on and off for 4 weeks and had a runny nose.  We had taken her to the Dr. 3 times already and were prescribed antibiotics for a sinus infection.  The ER totally brushed us off and gave us a lecture about giving antibiotics when she probably just had a virus.  We were told she was catching something new every 4 weeks from daycare.  They said daycare = sick baby.  They were about to send us home when they asked about her vaccinations.  We told them she was not vaccinated and then we got another lecture.  They had to call the communical disease control because she was in the ER and not vax'd.  Communical disease control made them run extra tests to rule out meningitis.  They decided she didnt have meningitis but the blood test showed she did have a severe infection that was resistant to some antibiotics.  She was put on the correct medication and within 2 days was back to the baby we knew before she started getting sick.  If she was vax'd we would have been sent packing from the ER with no resolution.

[miriam]

Originally Posted by alimac 
  They had to call the communical disease control because she was in the ER and not vax'd.  Communical disease control made them run extra tests to rule out meningitis.  They decided she didnt have meningitis but the blood test showed she did have a severe infection that was resistant to some antibiotics.  She was put on the correct medication and within 2 days was back to the baby we knew before she started getting sick.  If she was vax'd we would have been sent packing from the ER with no resolution.

Did they do a spinal tap?  

This is why I tell parents to lie about vaxing in the ER.  Doctors lie to you plenty.  Return the favor.

Anecdotally, my BIL went to the ER for psycho-mental and prescription drug problems in an ambulance and then walked home (...yes, a real emergency, go figure).  

When he got home, his entire family, his son, a friend, his daughter, my sister included, developed terrible flu symptoms within 18 hours all together.  Apparently, he brought home a very bad germ from the ER and shared it with everyone.   

Therefore, not all germs go into an ER.  Many of them are sitting in the ER ready to go home with you. 

Edited by miriam - 7/17/11 at 8:58am

[SilverMoon010]

Originally Posted by miriam 

This is why I tell parents to lie about vaxing in the ER.  Doctors lie to you plenty.  Return the favor.

I've been wondering this in case I am ever in the situation (which I hope not to be).  If you lie about you or your child's vax status at the ER, do they ever follow up on it and can potentially find out the truth? I'm wondering if you tell them your child is fully vaxed (when in reality they aren't), do they probe for more questions like dates of last shots, etc? Also, does this apply to the hospital admissions as well or just ERs in general? 

In Alimac's case, why couldn't they find the severe infection (which obviously wasn't meningitis) BEFORE knowing her child's vax status and putting her child through all of that testing for meningitis and such? It's absurd. It's like they have no clue as to what to even look for or test for until they know your vax status to use as a guideline.

[Alenushka]

Of course, it is the right of any patient to not give any info they do not feel like giving to the provider.

However, I think lying to ER or doctors in general is bad idea. Providers base their diagnosis, testing and treatment on the based on information provided by he patient.   A child might be ill but doctor would not put Hib  or measles on top of his list of possible illness because the parent told him that child is vaccinated. Child might be tested first for something totally different.

There is nothing personal in the fact that doctor wanted to talk about vaccinations.  It would be simply the hospital or even Joint Commission regulation that requires doctor to talk about thing like vaccination, pain control or smoking.

Yes, it sounds like a doctor is using scare tactics but a while ago a family won lawsuit because the doctor told a patient about PAP Smear but did not explicitly stated and charted that if patient refused PAP Smear, she may develop undetected cancer and die.  So, because of lawsuits like this doctor feel posses to give info that may sound super scare to the patients.

I would just simply say "Thank you for your information but I made up my mind"  You can always ask, "what are the stat for my geographical area?"

[Marnica]

What you choose to divulge to ER staff is depdends entirely on WHY you are there IMO. Ive been to the ER once with DS when he was 18 motnhs old. He had fallen and banged his head pretty badly. That has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH VACCINES. when asked , I lied. it was not relevant and none of their business frankly. If I had been there for something else such as what a PP described, I would have been up front because I do think doctors rule out things based on vax status alone (which is crappy care IMO) Since it is a known fact that vaccines can fail in certain people - they should treat vaxed and non vaxed the same when doing differential daignosis and not assume because they are vaccinated they are protected.

[nia82]

I'm with Marnica. I hate to lie, but if I take my kid to the ER for something that is completely unrelated to any disease you could vaccinate for I lie. Like when DS opened the fridge and pulled a big Pyrex full of lasagna out and it fell on his toe which was then super swollen and blue and he wouldn't stop crying and refused to nurse, I was scared and took him in to see if it was broken (haha little did I know you can't do anything about a broken toe anyways). Why wait for a lecture when he has an injury that couldn't even give him tetanus, kwim?

When we took him for what we had no idea it was later on (it was croup) we did not lie. They didn't really bully us though and came quickly to a croup diagnoses, but later on when we were admitted for a little some residents tried to push us but I brushed them off. The ER doc was so rude though. It had nothing to do with vaccines though. DS was breathing heavily and she told us "you know they don't make it for long like this. we'll likely have to intubate him and take him to XYZ (bigger city closeby) to a children's hospital". DS 3 hours later ate like a horse and breathed just fine. Even if the situation had been dire, her choice of words showed quite some lack of bedside manners.

[SilverMoon010]

So, for those who have been through it already, when they asked if your child was up to date on your vaccines and you (casually lied) and said yes, they didn't ask you any more questions after that to gather more info about the vaccines your child supposedly had?  My luck I would say "yes" and then get a whole list of questions to be answered such as date of last shot, what doctor, etc. I'm just terrible when put on the spot like that.

[nia82]

Nope, they don't ask any further. It's a routine question by the admitting nurse and all they do is put a little checkmark. Nobody will require to see proof. :)

[alimac]

I am glad we did not lie. If we had told them she was vaccinated they would not have run the extra test. It was only a blood test to see if her white blood cell count was up.  They weren't going to do a spinal tap until they got the results of the blood test.  By the time the blood test came back the tylenol had kicked in and she was feeling better and was really social.  They ruled out meningitis based on her energy level after the tylenol.

[Shanesmom]

I would never lie, but then again I don't mind people getting on their soapboxes because I'm totally convinced I have made the right decision in not vaxing.

Don't let these "experts" discourage you. They have a lot to gain from you vaccinating your kids