Seeking Research (or Personal Experience) that is Anti-Homeschool - Page 2

[daisymama12]

I don't have any homeschool-negative stories, but a PS positive story.

I considered homeschooling because I was concerned about my quiet son fitting into a bustling, busy classroom.

Long story short, I decided to give kindergarten six weeks, and make a decision based on how he was doing at that point.

Fast forward a bit, he is finishing grade 4 today, and he has bloomed in the school environment. He has really gained a ton of confidence socially. The daily exposure to kids has allowed him to develop some positive friendships that mean a lot to him.

I by NO means think this applies to homeschoolers in general, but in hindsight I think my desire to homeschool was based on my anxiety that my son wouldn't fit into the school environment. I now trust his ability to adapt and succeed, and I think he feels that.

I continue to be interested in homeschooling, but I'm glad our little local public school has provided a community for our whole family.

[Alenushka]

I have HS friends and we seriously thought about when my son was not doing well. What I discovered is that our local school district had amazing resourse for him once we got IEP. HE was trasffered to private therapuetic school and bloomed tehre in 2 years. He is not in mainstream High School. A big HS where he made friends, found his own groups to hang out with etc with minimal support from his case worker.  The skills he learned in the alt 3 years  he would have not learned at home.  I really was anxious how he would cope with public high school and this is why I though of home schooling but ultimately, public school gave him what we would not give him at home ever.

[meetoo]

Linda on the move: 

 I think we all have mommy guilt about something. I think it's wonderful that you were able to realize homeschooling wasn't  working anymore and fix it! I have seen people who know deep down it isn't working any more but don't put their children in school for fear they will be behind, or not fit in socially, or mom will loose her homeschooling identity........or whatever. You seem like a wonderful mother to me. :) 

Edited by meetoo - 6/23/11 at 12:21pm

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

whatsnext mom and storm bride,

thank you for your kind words. This is a difficult subject for me to talk about because I feel like a fool, but I know other moms who've been through similar things (some who left Mothering.com). I hope that by being more open about my failings as a parent, it can help open honest dialogue.

I don't think you should feel like a fool. While I do think that, as parents, we know our children best, we also have built-in blinders, because we're so used to them. I know that I didn't realize just how bad ds1's time management skills are until after dh moved up here (dh is the type who says "we're late" if we're less than 10 minutes early). I haven't got good time management skills, and ds1's are worse than mine. I'd realized that, but I truly didn't realize just how bad they are, and they're bad. His future wife, if any, may actually shoot me for not teaching him better. :o

DD1 needed glasses. I knew she was somewhat nearsighted, but I was busy and tired and didn't get around to making her an appointment to have her eyes checked for almost a year. I didn't think it was that bad. She's extremely nearsighted, and she has quite severe astigmatisms in both eyes. The poor kid was trying so hard to read, but just couldn't make out the typefaces, and I had no idea. I just thought she wasn't ready to read yet. She wasn't, but she wasn't as resistant as she seemed to be, yk?

I think most of us have issues of this kind, to some degree or another. We get used to living with our children's quirks and it takes a certain amount of conscious effort to stop and think about them, and try to figure out what's really going on. In some cases, someone who knows children, in general, better, and our children, in particular, less well, is more likely to notice something. (On the flip side, ds2's preschool teacher still thinks he's completely normal/typical, and I'm 100% sure that he's not. So...you just never know.)

[whatsnextmom]

Yes, I pretty much tortured DS from 2 to 5. DS struggled with solids in the beginning so I just continued nursing him until he was 2-years-old. Every week we'd try a solid food and he'd throw-it-up and so we'd wait some more. I though he had an immature digestive track and since he was growing on target and very active, his doctors weren't stressed. Then, he started being able to eat SOME solids but was very particular. From birth he's been strong-willed in EVERYTHING. It never occured to me that he might have a real issue with eating. I just thought he was being picky and everyone seemed to agree. Every night, we started stressing about an hour before dinner in anticipation of the nightly torture. DS would fight and cry and eventually throw up on the table. I couldn't rectify how he could eat certain things so well and others that seemed similar not at all.  I mean, the kid could eat peanut butter sandwiches no problem but a sandwich with a slice of cheese and he'd flip out, gag, choke, and vomit. He couldn't express the problem fully... he could only say "I don't like it." I penalized him for years  for being a "picky eater" and it just got worse and more violent. I finally took him in for Occupational Therapy for other issues actually and they checked the food issues too. I was literally sobbing at the end of the session when they told me he has an over- active gag reflex. Instead of being at the back of his throat like other people, his gag reflex is way up in front. He literally feels like he's choking on most foods and I'd spent years making him feel terrible about it.

Looking back I just can't believe I didn't figure it out earlier. It seems so freakin' obvious now.  However, at the time, I just knew he was different from DD in all sorts of ways and that this must just be another aspect of his personality. The people around me could not phathom the extremes. They thought my tales of dinner woes were over-dramatizations.

I know so many parents who got hit with the "duh" stick years after issues should have been apparant. It's really hard to see when you are with someone daily. It's like when I got contacts in high school. I'd worn glasses from 3rd grade and yet NONE of my friends noticed I wasn't wearing them. It took some kid I never talked to to say "wow, you have contacts now?"

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

I don't think you should feel like a fool. While I do think that, as parents, we know our children best, we also have built-in blinders, because we're so used to them. I know that I didn't realize just how bad ds1's time management skills are until after dh moved up here (dh is the type who says "we're late" if we're less than 10 minutes early). I haven't got good time management skills, and ds1's are worse than mine. I'd realized that, but I truly didn't realize just how bad they are, and they're bad. His future wife, if any, may actually shoot me for not teaching him better. :o

DD1 needed glasses. I knew she was somewhat nearsighted, but I was busy and tired and didn't get around to making her an appointment to have her eyes checked for almost a year. I didn't think it was that bad. She's extremely nearsighted, and she has quite severe astigmatisms in both eyes. The poor kid was trying so hard to read, but just couldn't make out the typefaces, and I had no idea. I just thought she wasn't ready to read yet. She wasn't, but she wasn't as resistant as she seemed to be, yk?

I think most of us have issues of this kind, to some degree or another. We get used to living with our children's quirks and it takes a certain amount of conscious effort to stop and think about them, and try to figure out what's really going on. In some cases, someone who knows children, in general, better, and our children, in particular, less well, is more likely to notice something. (On the flip side, ds2's preschool teacher still thinks he's completely normal/typical, and I'm 100% sure that he's not. So...you just never know.)

[Alenushka]

I say, "When in doubt, get evaluation by a specialist" We live in the time and place when it is relatively easy to get access to PT, OP, LP and psyhological services. Get a second opinion.

[Linda on the move]

In the context that the thread has taken, I want to point out these comments:
 

Originally Posted by SaveTheWild 

If it provides any useful context, part of the reason I am interested in homeschooling is that my DD is academically advanced, but also still very much disinterested in being away from the home for extended periods.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaveTheWild 

Tiredx2:  Thank you so much for your very helpful response.  yes, very sensitive little one here at my house.  She has been in some kind of very part time preschool since 2 years old (in hindsight that was a huge mistake) and each year we have either missed a lot, pulled her out early (like this year when I pulled her out completely in January), or I have had to attend with her for many of the days.  She really just isn't ready to be away for long.

What you would be told by homeschoolers is that she isn't ready, and given time she will be. It's a maturity thing. Just give it time.

What if it isn't just *readiness*? What if there is a reason why your DD is unable to do simple things that other kids her age can -- like hang out at preschool for a few hours without mommy?

She is really little, and I don't know what the magic age when not being able separate from mommy becomes a red flag.

But looking at the facts from the point of view of someone who missed what was going on with my own child, one of the reasons you are thinking of homeschooling her is because she cannot do something that most kids her age can, and just hoping the problem goes away with time. It might. It might not.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

In the context that the thread has taken, I want to point out these comments:
 

Quote:

What you would be told by homeschoolers is that she isn't ready, and given time she will be. It's a maturity thing. Just give it time.

What if it isn't just *readiness*? What if there is a reason why your DD is unable to do simple things that other kids her age can -- like hang out at preschool for a few hours without mommy?

She is really little, and I don't know what the magic age when not being able separate from mommy becomes a red flag.

But looking at the facts from the point of view of someone who missed what was going on with my own child, one of the reasons you are thinking of homeschooling her is because she cannot do something that most kids her age can, and just hoping the problem goes away with time. It might. It might not.

To be fair I think the response she would get from most thoughtful parents is that it's a maturity thing - that advice is common across MDC and beyond and not limited to homeschoolers. It's likely the advice she's receive from most professionals, educators etc as well, given the age of the child. The vast majority of the things we worry about as parents never come to pass, and the vast majority of neurotypical kids develop in a normal way, so the advice to trust and wait is good solid time proven advice and can give a parent space to figure out if it is worry or instinct behind the concern.  It's also good advice to be aware and listen to our own instincts regarding our children rather assuming others who have only partial info know better than parents. This is true regardless of the type of schooling choices one makes.                              
 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

To be fair I think the response she would get from most thoughtful parents is that it's a maturity thing - that advice is common across MDC and beyond and not limited to homeschoolers. It's likely the advice she's receive from most professionals, educators etc as well, given the age of the child. 

I completely agree with you. When I am around 5 year olds, I'm amazed at how small they are and at all that our society expects of them (I'm also amazed at how cute they are!).

The vast majority of the things we worry about as parents never come to pass, and the vast majority of neurotypical kids develop in a normal way, so the advice to trust and wait is good solid time proven advice and can give a parent space to figure out if it is worry or instinct behind the concern. 

This sentence assumes that one can tell which kids are neutrotypical and which ones aren't. Sometimes it's really obvious, but sometimes it isn't. For kids with *mild* difference, it's hard to tell. Defining which kids are "neurotypical" and which one's aren't is partly about how they handle the demands put on them by our culture for their age. For non-mainstream parents who don't buy into the demands of our culture, this is a very complex. The line between not believing that the demands of the culture are appropriate for a small child and just *denial* is actually a lot harder to navigate than most of us, even those with typical kids, would care to realize.

Your sentence says that  "to trust and wait is good solid time proven advice,"  but my experience, and that of some other parents who choose not to talk about, is that was really bad advice that kept our children from getting the help they needed. 

For some kids who are on their own time table, rather than catching up with more time they get further behind because the demands for each age are a little more complex. The child is already behind and they are progressing more slowly, so they just keep falling further and further behind.

It's possible that the OPers little girl needs a couple of years, and then she'll seem more like the other kids and be able to do the things most kids can. It's also possible that something more is going on with her -- sensory issues, or anxiety issues, or something else. It's possible that figuring that out and getting her some help for it could make life happier for her. It's possible that OT or CBT or something else that I'm not aware could be very helpful for her.

And even if she were to see experts, it could be hard to figure it out. So strangers with no special training who've never met the child telling the mom over and over that just giving it time will cure it, are just..... talking out their arses.

 It's also good advice to be aware and listen to our own instincts regarding our children rather assuming others who have only partial info know better than parents. This is true regardless of the type of schooling choices one makes.    

yes, it's also possible that the OPers DD is best off with homeschooling even if something more significant is going on with her. I do think it's in the child's best interest for the mom to work on those independence skills and take them VERY seriously, rather than assuming they will go away with time. If she isn't going to go to school, then I think the more drop off programs she goes to, the better.

One of the problems with homeschooling is that it makes it VERY easy to ignore that one's child can't do something that most of their peers can do. It's just no longer a problem. Some homeschool advocates think that's a strength. I see it as denial.

Peace

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

To be fair I think the response she would get from most thoughtful parents is that it's a maturity thing - that advice is common across MDC and beyond and not limited to homeschoolers. It's likely the advice she's receive from most professionals, educators etc as well, given the age of the child. The vast majority of the things we worry about as parents never come to pass, and the vast majority of neurotypical kids develop in a normal way, so the advice to trust and wait is good solid time proven advice and can give a parent space to figure out if it is worry or instinct behind the concern.  It's also good advice to be aware and listen to our own instincts regarding our children rather assuming others who have only partial info know better than parents. This is true regardless of the type of schooling choices one makes.                              
 

The problem with instinct is that it has it's limitations. It often isn't helpful if there is a problem beyond a person's knowledge and experience. In fact, it can be harmful. Instinct often tells us to keep doing what we are comfortable doing and to continue using past problem-solving techniques. Unfortunately, if the problem is outside our knowledge and past experience, those problem-solving techniques may not work. In addition, sadly, some people will confuse blind adherence to ideology with instinct.  

I don't think instinct should be ignored. That doesn't mean that a parent shouldn't question whether those instincts are reliable. It would be wrong to dismiss the insights of others who have wider or different knowledge and experience, based on instinct and the law of averages. 

I wanted to thank Linda and Whatsnextmom and StormBride for sharing their stories. I think they have done a huge service by providing very moving testimonies about how a parent can miss or mistake the signs that a child needs help beyond a parent's immediate purview.      

[Alenushka]

I had an instinct that something was wrong with my kid at age 7. My HS friend kept telling me it was school's fault and that HS would fix everything. Hmmm. he has real biochemical problem with his brain. Bipolar disorder requires melds not just therapy. So, yes, I am glad I consulted a specialist who took his time and provided his expertise to diagnose and treat my son.

Waiting for thing to just mature and get better would have exposed his growing brain to even more manic episodes that are very brain damaging.

[SaveTheWild]

Since my DDs "separation" issues have now become a bit of a topic of discussions for folks ... 

I agree that homeschooling seems like it could hide/mask/etc. real issues that would be caught in a school setting where there are periodic evaluations, professional expertise, etc.  Certainly a real cause for concern when something that shouldn't be ignored, is.

As for my own daughter, I am not worried at this time.  She is only 4 (early fall birthday).  She is able to separate and do lots of things without me, including drop-off classes, play dates, etc.  She even has been somewhat willingly going to preschool since 2.  By somewhat willingly I mean this -- She starts off the year fine.  Then each year (of the three years she has gone), usually after the holidays, she has a period of time when she has a really hard time separating.  I either have to go with her, keep her home until it passes, or pull her out early.  This year is became such a huge issue that we just pulled her out completely in January.  (In hindsight it was a great decision, because I realized that the particular preschool and teaching style she was in this year was not at all good for her).  I think it is seasonal (we live in a place with cold winters).  But I also think it is because she is young and has a baby sister she adores and would rather play with us than the kids at school.

If she can't separate better when she is 6, that is a different story.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by SaveTheWild 
 (In hindsight it was a great decision, because I realized that the particular preschool and teaching style she was in this year was not at all good for her).  I think it is seasonal (we live in a place with cold winters).  But I also think it is because she is young and has a baby sister she adores and would rather play with us than the kids at school.

If she can't separate better when she is 6, that is a different story.

I agree. I don't see any red flags, and you haven't mentioned any other issues.

Can I ask when her birthday is? I'm curious if she would even be old enough for K in many states. Cutoffs vary so much. A lot of kids who are 4 right now who will be attending school won't be starting K for another year.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

I wanted to thank Linda and Whatsnextmom and StormBride for sharing their stories. I think they have done a huge service by providing very moving testimonies about how a parent can miss or mistake the signs that a child needs help beyond a parent's immediate purview.      

I do want to point out that it can go the other way, too. I put ds2 in preschool, even though I was planning to homeschool, for two reasons. First, he was (and still is, although not quite so much) incredibly disruptive and it was very hard to work with dd1, or even answer her questions properly. Secondly, I was beginning to feel that there was something "wrong" (off, non-typical, however you want to phrase it), but the people around me, except for ds1, disagreed with me, and felt it was a parenting/discipline issue. I thought it would be beneficial to put him in preschool and get some feedback from people who were used to working with kids in his age group.

The net result of this was that I became even more uncertain and have put off having him assessed for at least a year, maybe a year and a half, longer than I otherwise would have. Since then, I've made a new friend, who works with children on the autism spectrum, and she says she thinks there's "something" (and believes, because of his age that the diagnosis, for now, will be PPD:NOS). I've discussed his issues at length with an old friend who has a severely autistic daughter (she's now 20, and he's been dealing with these issues for a long time), who says that ASD is the new trendy diagnosis, just like ADHD was when ds1 was little...and that he thinks it sounds as though ds2 is on the spectrum. DS1 is more sure than ever that there's "something wrong" with his little brother. One of the naysayers ("you just need to be more firm with him!") has completely changed her tune. So, now...it's a year or year and a half later, and I'm finally starting to get the ball rolling (his first appointment, with a pediatrician, is next month). I have no idea how long it will take to complete the assessment. And, I have no idea how many months of being hit, choked, kicked, spit on, etc. - and breaking it up when he does these things to his sisters - I may have been spared if I hadn't been lulled into a false sense of complacency - but it wasn't the homeschooling community, in my case.

I definitely don't have all the answers. I think all we can do, as parents, is try to keep our eyes and ears open, and be as honest as we can about our chldren's challenges and competencies...and accept that, as much as it hurts, we are going to screw up and fall on our faces sometimes. Our kids will pay for it when we screw up in these areas...and there's no way around that - it's true in many areas (how much has my ds1 paid for my screw-up in choosing his dad??), and it's a big part of why parenting is such a humbling experience.

[SaveTheWild]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Can I ask when her birthday is? I'm curious if she would even be old enough for K in many states. Cutoffs vary so much. A lot of kids who are 4 right now who will be attending school won't be starting K for another year.

Her birthday is within a couple of days of the cutoff.  So she will always either be the very youngest or oldest in the class (excluding red-shirted kids, I guess).  Waiting a year would make sense from the emotional/separation side. The problem is that she is already at a more advanced academic level, so waiting even longer will mean she is even more ahead.  So, homeschooling really seems to be the best option until I feel she is excited to go to school, then I would put her in with the class that makes the most sense at that time.  Hopefully a "gifted" program of some kind if that is available to her.

[GuildJenn]

This is an awesome thread.

I just wanted to share my own thoughts around not homeschooling, besides the fact that I love my non-teaching job.

When I was a young thing, I really thought I could figure everything out. And the truth is of course that as a mother no one other than my husband will love and know our kids the way I do. I also was an ed assistant in an elementary school for a couple of years. I thought that would be a great homeschooling background.

As I've gotten older I've come to recognize expertise - the kind that doesn't get put into words or even always thought consciously by the person doing it. (I know your kid can read, this is just an example.) I might know two ways to teach reading, and I can read up on several more. But what I don't have is the experience of a 5-year teacher having taught 100 different kids (or 90, if we include a failure rate) to read. She will have the same techniques, but will have internalized them and often will switch strategies for different kids without really consciously thinking about it, or even for the same kids on different days.That'll leave her the energy to deal with the math, the social studies, etc. 

She just has a completely different level of understanding, the kind that comes from really teaching a wide variety of kids, in a professional environment with supervision (not always great, but still) for years. I've seen bad teachers and good teachers and bad teachers are really not good...but good ones, wow, they can catch that kid's struggle from across the room and step in so easily, because they've done it before.

Not every teacher will be great at everything but...neither am I.

So what I asked myself straight-up honestly was this: Did my loving care balance out the fact that for the rest of my son's life I was going to be the equivalent of a first-year teacher (or not even): One step ahead, making all my mistakes on him, and probably perpetuating the ones I couldn't see rather than him switching teachers and blind spots every year? And FOR ME the answer was: Nope.

Now we've been in a Montessori up 'til now and my son is entering PS grade one in Sept, so we'll see how well this holds. But that was my thought process. Whatever your path I hope it's useful to you.

[Linda on the move]

An odd thing I noticed after my kids started school is that I have about the same amount of quality time with them as I did homeschooling, because I'm much more *on* during the afternoons, evenings, and weekends. May be other moms are different, but being *on* during all my children's waking hours just didn't work for me year after year. They didn't loose me at all when they started school, but they gained real teachers and lots more time with peers. May be it's because they were a bit older when they started school, so they were staying up later. May be it's just me.

I'm curious how this played out for other former homeschooling families.

[jeteaa]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn 

This is an awesome thread.

I just wanted to share my own thoughts around not homeschooling, besides the fact that I love my non-teaching job.

When I was a young thing, I really thought I could figure everything out. And the truth is of course that as a mother no one other than my husband will love and know our kids the way I do. I also was an ed assistant in an elementary school for a couple of years. I thought that would be a great homeschooling background.

As I've gotten older I've come to recognize expertise - the kind that doesn't get put into words or even always thought consciously by the person doing it. (I know your kid can read, this is just an example.) I might know two ways to teach reading, and I can read up on several more. But what I don't have is the experience of a 5-year teacher having taught 100 different kids (or 90, if we include a failure rate) to read. She will have the same techniques, but will have internalized them and often will switch strategies for different kids without really consciously thinking about it, or even for the same kids on different days.That'll leave her the energy to deal with the math, the social studies, etc. 

She just has a completely different level of understanding, the kind that comes from really teaching a wide variety of kids, in a professional environment with supervision (not always great, but still) for years. I've seen bad teachers and good teachers and bad teachers are really not good...but good ones, wow, they can catch that kid's struggle from across the room and step in so easily, because they've done it before.

Not every teacher will be great at everything but...neither am I.

So what I asked myself straight-up honestly was this: Did my loving care balance out the fact that for the rest of my son's life I was going to be the equivalent of a first-year teacher (or not even): One step ahead, making all my mistakes on him, and probably perpetuating the ones I couldn't see rather than him switching teachers and blind spots every year? And FOR ME the answer was: Nope.

Now we've been in a Montessori up 'til now and my son is entering PS grade one in Sept, so we'll see how well this holds. But that was my thought process. Whatever your path I hope it's useful to you.

I agree with your opinion of teachers. My question is though, assuming a 6 hr school day, minus 1 hr for the non academics, that leaves 300 academic minutes/day with an average of 25 kids/class, if the teacher ONLY worked with each student individually, then each student would only receive 12 minutes of a "personalized education"/day. However, assuming whole class lessons each day, that might leave 8 minutes for each student. SOOOO.... although I am not a profession, I do wonder if by hsing I could spend 60 minutes on my childs academic needs, then they can have the rest of the "school day" to work on all the extra activities that the schools have cut out.

[aslyn]

*I* would wait a year before making any determination. She is a young 4 so it will not be a huge thing for her not to be formally schooled at this point. My little guy made huge leaps from 4-5 in his maturity levels.

I was one of the parents who homeschooled and "missed" special needs. I wont bore you with the specifics, but if you look back I couldn't teach my DD to read or do basic math. I got alot of "try this & that" and "give it time". She is now in ps in a multi-resource room all day, 10 years old and works on 1st grade level.

Otoh my 8 yr old is also in ps and 1 of the top readers in the school-he is not gifted; reading is just his thing. So I think it can go both ways, but for us burnout coupled with masked disabilites (she has several) was a very bad mix.

Also, I will admit that since they are in school all day I'm a much nicer person. I spend more quality time with them now that I'm not begging them to do schoolwork.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by jeteaa 

I agree with your opinion of teachers. My question is though, assuming a 6 hr school day, minus 1 hr for the non academics, that leaves 300 academic minutes/day with an average of 25 kids/class, if the teacher ONLY worked with each student individually, then each student would only receive 12 minutes of a "personalized education"/day. However, assuming whole class lessons each day, that might leave 8 minutes for each student. SOOOO.... although I am not a profession, I do wonder if by hsing I could spend 60 minutes on my childs academic needs, then they can have the rest of the "school day" to work on all the extra activities that the schools have cut out.

Well, you know, I think this goes to your philosophy of learning.

What I've learned in watching my son thrive in Montessori is that kids learn from watching other kids learn, from other kids, from hearing the teacher teach the kids around them, from the learning environment itself and so on.  Although I'm sure it's true that direct instruction to individuals is about 8 minutes (if that), I don't personally believe that really reflects the opportunities to learn. And that's what it's all about for me.

My son is particularly like this; he's an observer and watching another child do something is pretty golden. He gets a little defensive by personality at direct correction, but if he hears something like someone else being reminded to capitalize "I" he'll go and capitalize his own.

So I'm not really worried about the "MY child will ONLY get 8 minutes a day to learn." No; as with most kids he is wired to learn all day. As long as the classroom is generally positive and engaged I'm fine with that.

I totally get that it does not work for every child - or every family - but that's my thought on that. It really, at this point, is not a concern - as long as the teacher is experienced and engaged enough to know when to engage with my child, it's good.