Seeking Research (or Personal Experience) that is Anti-Homeschool - Page 3

[serenbat]

I agree with your opinion of teachers. My question is though, assuming a 6 hr school day, minus 1 hr for the non academics, that leaves 300 academic minutes/day with an average of 25 kids/class, if the teacher ONLY worked with each student individually, then each student would only receive 12 minutes of a "personalized education"/day. However, assuming whole class lessons each day, that might leave 8 minutes for each student. SOOOO.... although I am not a profession, I do wonder if by hsing I could spend 60 minutes on my childs academic needs, then they can have the rest of the "school day" to work on all the extra activities that the schools have cut out.

totally agree - that is a big factor for us plus the NON-school stuff -

structured learning in a "school" restricts our family and our ability to spend time as a family - no school near me would even know let alone let you do a "part-time" things- we travel and that can't just be confined to a break-the schedule is also not in-tune with our family-my child would never see his father in a typical school day--so many factors that factor into HS for us-not all academic 

[DariusMom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

totally agree - that is a big factor for us plus the NON-school stuff -

structured learning in a "school" restricts our family and our ability to spend time as a family - no school near me would even know let alone let you do a "part-time" things- we travel and that can't just be confined to a break-the schedule is also not in-tune with our family-my child would never see his father in a typical school day--so many factors that factor into HS for us-not all academic 

Why is school in quotes?

[serenbat]

meaning formal/traditional setting - my closest alternative type school is an hour plus form me - 

[meetoo]

Originally Posted by jeteaa 

I agree with your opinion of teachers. My question is though, assuming a 6 hr school day, minus 1 hr for the non academics, that leaves 300 academic minutes/day with an average of 25 kids/class, if the teacher ONLY worked with each student individually, then each student would only receive 12 minutes of a "personalized education"/day. However, assuming whole class lessons each day, that might leave 8 minutes for each student. SOOOO.... although I am not a profession, I do wonder if by hsing I could spend 60 minutes on my childs academic needs, then they can have the rest of the "school day" to work on all the extra activities that the schools have cut out.

While it is true kids get more 1-1 when they are home it's not always the best IMO.  In school they are learning from the other kids as well as the teachers.One of my children does really well with this model.  My kids school does reading clubs as part of their reading program,  the help each other edit their writing...they are constantly encouraged to work in groups.  They are also encouraged to edit their own writing several times (using checklist/word lists) before handing in the work to the teacher.  Somethings really don't require individual instruction from the teacher.  For example they learn new math concepts as a group on the smart board. Silent reading is also a daily part of their school day.  There are resource teachers available for kids who are struggling.........It's not like a child in school is only receiving 8 minutes of education a day. It really just doesn't work like that.

 One of the things I did really like about homeschooling is the free time my kids were able to have, but I am curious to know what you mean by "all the extra activites schools have cut out"  I think there are plenty of positives to homeschooling but I think in an effort to get homeschooling accepted many homeschoolers paint schools ( public schools especially) in a really bad light. Some families really shouldn't homeschool, some kids really do do better in school, just like some kids really do better at home. It's not so black and white like  homeschooling is the best choice for children and ps is inferior to that in some way. They are just both very different forms of education. For my family I'm not going ot rule out homeschooling again in the future. If school stops working for one of my kids I will absolutely consider homeschooling as a viable option. Right now it's best for all of us (my needs count too) to have them in a school. That is subject to change at anytime though.  

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by meetoo 

 One of the things I did really like about homeschooling is the free time my kids were able to have, but I am curious to know what you mean by "all the extra activites schools have cut out"  

On the matter of "extra activities", IME, they can be a big benefit of attending school. Particularly since a child may be exposed to  something s/he may never have tried otherwise. A child from a family that doesn't participate a lot in art or sports may discover a new passion. A teacher or coach may recognize talent and potential that a non-artistic/non-musical/non-sporting parent may have overlooked. I take the point that some schools don't offer a lot of extra-curriculars and co-curriculars. I think this is where parental choice and involvement can be crucial in finding, supporting and contributing to good schools with good programs. There are schools that have well-developed extra activities. 

In a similar way, a child may get a chance to try on new social roles. The baby of the family gets a chance to develop leadership skills when they spend time outside of the family group. The over-looked middle child may shine for the first time. The firstborn can relinquish some of the responsibility and expectations for which they often bear the burden. Exploring these different roles happens best in new groups where they get regular, frequent contact with the other children - like in a school. 

I know a few children who blossomed in unexpected ways when they attended school. ETA: Throughout human history, it's been common to attend a place of learning with others outside the immediate family. Not necessarily a bricks and mortar school, since bricks and mortar may not have existed. Humans are social animals, though, and as much as some people like to portray formal schooling as an unnatural, artificial experience, it's actually a logical development of living in a community to learn together. I see a growing recognition of the importance of collaborative learning. 

Edited by ollyoxenfree - 6/30/11 at 7:48am

[aslyn]

I agree that the stuff cut out is not a great argument, Every ps I have dealt with has "specials"..art,music,pe,computer. Many people live in areas where they don't have access or cannot afford private lessons for these extras.Hs'ing takes a great deal of time,commitment,patience and cash..it can be a good thing for some kids, a disaster for others even in the same family.

[serenbat]

Every ps I have dealt with has "specials"..art,music,pe,computer. Many people live in areas where they don't have access or cannot afford private lessons for these extras.Hs'ing takes a great deal of time,commitment,patience and cash..

this is not at all true in my area- art teachers were the first to be fired, music cost $$- you are expected to do fund raiser after fund raiser and this goes for sport/cheerleading etc

field trips are cut out, you get none of these any more - it cost the PS parent lots of money for having a child do any activity (most no longer do sports because of this)

for HS in my area, they are organized and do many "specials" and it is far cheaper than going as a family because of the discounts

each area is different but for mine HS is far cheaper in the long run

my state just announced today the cuts to the local district- most districts are laying off over 100+ teachers- from special ed to general----it makes a big difference to us and HS is really the only option at this point- if things continue as they are now, no one wants taxes raised (yet some are doing this) I only see more cuts

[AllyRae]

Uh, not for most people.  During those 6 hours a day, group instruction counts for something too.  In homeschooling, you still have to teach that stuff that got taught in the group stuff.  I only have a 2nd grader, and it still takes us 5-6 hours a DAY to get our work done....pretty similar to what he had to do at school.  The only difference is that he doesn't have homework at night.  Homeschooling is hard work if you don't do an unschooling or low academics model (we use an actual curriculum for each subject area that the state of Ohio requires). There's just no way you can get by on 60 minutes a day if you are using curriculum and following state standards.  So, depending on the type of homeschooler you are, 1 hour a day is completely unrealistic.  Now, I'm sure there will be 200 people that pop in here and say that they only spend 60 minutes a day doing it, etc.  But, my own personal experience is that it's just not feasible if you are using a curriculum (we are NOT unschoolers.  Not at all.  We are montessori-based for our pre-elementary kids and then move to a hands on academic curriculum for elementary school).  The benefit of homeschooling?  He gets 1 on 1 instruction in those subjects, but there is still far more than 60 minutes--it has to include the instruction time, the work time, and any editing the work required.  We spend about 60 minutes per SUBJECT each day.  This does include art & piano plus a 10 minute exercise break between each subject, but it does not include his martial arts lessons, or the 90 minutes he gets off for lunch and outdoors play, or recreational silent reading.

So, the amount of time depends on the type of homeschooler you are.  But for those who do academic curriculum, we have heard that the average school day is 5 hours long, and that seems to be our experience as well--we have longer school days for a day or two if we want to throw a fun day or an extended field trip in on another day that week, but on average, we are doing about 5 hours a day of academics.  That isn't much different than the schools around here.  
 

Originally Posted by jeteaa 

I agree with your opinion of teachers. My question is though, assuming a 6 hr school day, minus 1 hr for the non academics, that leaves 300 academic minutes/day with an average of 25 kids/class, if the teacher ONLY worked with each student individually, then each student would only receive 12 minutes of a "personalized education"/day. However, assuming whole class lessons each day, that might leave 8 minutes for each student. SOOOO.... although I am not a profession, I do wonder if by hsing I could spend 60 minutes on my childs academic needs, then they can have the rest of the "school day" to work on all the extra activities that the schools have cut out.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by AllyRae 

There's just no way you can get by on 60 minutes a day if you are using curriculum and following state standards.  So, depending on the type of homeschooler you are, 1 hour a day is completely unrealistic.

I don't see how it is realistic for any style of homeschooler, unless you are just ignoring your kids and forbidding them from playing with anything that might be messy (including all toys and art supplies!)

My kids got a lot out of their day when they went to traditional school, far more than an hour, and their school had a nice selection of "extras."  It was great because they had so many extra things in one place and at NO extra charge. Honestly, after homeschooling, it was a relief. It wasn't why we switched, but after the switch I felt that I had been a bit of a fool and bought into a line that wasn't actually true.  I didn't have to drive them to all these separate things, take a day out of our week for "park day" so they could socialize, etc. It was all a lot simplier, and they learned a great deal.

Now they attend an alternative school which is truly amazing. The kind of extras are very different -- backpack trips instead of chess team, writing retreat instead of sports teams, etc., but still, an amazing selection under one roof. A kiln, a greenhouse, a darkroom. And my kids are learning a ton.

I find the idea that homeschooling only takes an hour a day very foolish. If it is time you are with your kids, paying attention to them or cleaning up after them, then it counts. It's time that you aren't taking a class you want to take, reading a book you want to read, getting a job that you find interesting. If you love homeschooling, GREAT, but be honest about the fact that you spend your days doing it!

[AllyRae]

True enough Linda...it takes me far more than 60 minutes a day to help the kids clean up all the mess from their frequently messy hands on daily projects. :lol:  I can't see how anyone who is doing justice to their homeschool kids can spend only an hour a day...5 hours a WEEK on homeschooling.  And that wouldn't even pass muster here...in Ohio, you have to homeschool for 900 hours a  year.  Not quite sure there are 900 days. LOL!  I would imagine that even unschooling, done well, takes more than an hour a day.  But pretending that homeschooling takes an hour a day is part of the reason people think homeschoolers don't do anything but play.

[Storm Bride]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't consider the time we spend on craft projects, or out of the house at lessons, activities, etc. when I talk about how much time I spend on homeschooling. I don't - and wouldn't - spend any five hours at a desk with my kids. We spent four hours at the science museum day before yesterday. The "school" year is over, but that would count as learning to me, and to the BC government (and school kids often take field trips there). If I were talking about how many hours a week we homeschool, I wouldn't include that. I'd only count time I spent on actively working with my kids on reading, writing, math, science, or some aspects of social studies. When we're learning in the car, or on the road, or the kids are doing a self-directed activity, I don't consider that as time that I spend homeschooling, yk?

[AllyRae]

Still, how can you work on reading, writing, math, science, and social studies with only an hour a day?  Do you only do 1 subject a day for one hour and call it a day?  How on earth do you get through an entire year's worth of learning that way, especially since you don't appear to school the entire year?  The average school probably works on EACH of those subjects for at LEAST 45 minutes a DAY.  And what about the other subjects a state requires--foreign language, history (ancient, modern, US, and state), art (not crafts...fine art), music (not just beating on plastic drums...learning about the great composers), health/phys ed?  Our state requires all of that in addition to what you've already listed.  No way on this green earth it can be done in 5 hours a week.  It takes longer than 5 hours a week to prepare to teach those.  I do each of the subjects Ohio requires us to do, and it takes about 5-6 hours a day to get through them all.  Are we talking about kids who will prepare for, read, and do the lessons with absolutely no help from the homeschooling parent?  Because in many cases, a fully independent (but not unschooling) study homeschool is also not realistic, especially for children under high school age.
 

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't consider the time we spend on craft projects, or out of the house at lessons, activities, etc. when I talk about how much time I spend on homeschooling. I don't - and wouldn't - spend any five hours at a desk with my kids. We spent four hours at the science museum day before yesterday. The "school" year is over, but that would count as learning to me, and to the BC government (and school kids often take field trips there). If I were talking about how many hours a week we homeschool, I wouldn't include that. I'd only count time I spent on actively working with my kids on reading, writing, math, science, or some aspects of social studies. When we're learning in the car, or on the road, or the kids are doing a self-directed activity, I don't consider that as time that I spend homeschooling, yk?

[Linda on the move]

I think this thread has taken a very common thread -- many homeschoolers seem to believe that school is a big waste of time and that they can accomplish much more. They don't seem to realize that for those of us whose children are currently thriving in school, we see our kids getting a great deal of value out of their time at school.

What some of us who have children in school have said is that there is value in our kids having experienced teachers and being with their peers. I think that got really glossed over in the side conversation about how many hour it takes to homeschool, and what should count in those hours. If a child learns best with teachers other than mom or works harder when around their peers, it really doesn't matter if you count your homeschooling as 1 hour a day or 6 hours a day, they are missing out on how they learn best.

Part of the homeschooling rhetoric is that mom really can do everything if only she tries hard enough. Depending on the child,  that's just not true.

(And the argument that homeschooled children have lots of time with other teachers and peers because of all their activities doesn't hold water with me any more -- because I know how much time is just spent driving to all that stuff! When it's all consolidated under one roof, the children get to spend more time doing and lets time driving around. )

I've no doubt that homeschooling is the best option for some kids in some situations, but the OP asked for things that are anti-homeschool. 

[serenbat]

as with any thing - if you search you can find what suite your needs and the justification to meet your needs

the key word is "some"- some thrive in school, some do not

if you want to see only negatives you will miss the positives

some people are cut out for hsing their kids and others are not

[serenbat]

 It takes longer than 5 hours a week to prepare to teach those.  

this seems way too long - IMO unless you are making up your own curriculum -even that would be too large of time too me

my state only requires days not hours so it is less---180 days are required--out of 360 that is easy and "days" is up to what your evaluator deems it to be

same way my state only requires "progress" so that means no testing EACH year-we have no mandates either

[MJB]

We homeschooled my oldest for K after a few weeks of trying all day school. We got everything done in an hour a day-- it's kindergarten! He had lots of friends in the neighborhood to play with and all was fine. I'm glad I gave him the extra year at home. We did art and music in the public school. He went to public 1st grade, loved it, and did great. He started out ahead in some areas (math) and behind in others (reading and writing). He caught up quickly in reading, and is still struggling with handwriting a couple years down the line; we're pretty sure he has dysgraphia. After a bad school assignment for 2nd, we tried homeschooling again for 6 weeks. Homeschooling a 2nd+ grader is not like homeschooling a kindergartner. We were spending 3-4 hours a day on it and it was not fun. We were able to get him into a Montessori school so he is back in school now, a rising 3rd grader.

My 1st grader has been in school since 2.5 (yes, while I was homeschooling kid #1-- totally different personalities!) Personally, I don't *want* to spend 24 hours a day with my big kids. We all enjoy having separate lives for a few hours a day and coming together afterwards. I see my kids blossoming and becoming more independent-- they are happy to have sleepovers, go away to summer camp, etc. I get to have my own career and hobbies, and we still get plenty of time together. Last year, when I had recently had my third child, I got lots of one-on-one time with my new baby. She gets a chance to do her own things while the big kids are in school-- this year that'll be a lot of playgroups, toddler storytimes, swim lessons, etc. My boys are in separate schools that meet their individual needs, which would be hard for me to do if I homeschooled both of them. I think it is better for the sibling relationship, too. They have separate friends and interests and get time away from each other. They're pretty sick of each other already after a month of summer break! 

Schools also have gym, science labs, and other resources I don't have at home. They have enough kids to put on plays and holiday programs, to have chess teams, spelling bees, and all sorts of other big group projects. I think schools are awesome. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

some people are cut out for hsing their kids and others are not

  That's so funny because I read it like it was a response to what I wrote!  I homeschooled my kids until they were 10 and 12, so I have more years of homeschooling experience that many of the moms posting on the homeschooling board. *Most* of those years were successful.

Stating that one of the kids really does best with experienced teachers and the other really works harder when she sees what her peers are up to in core subjects doesn't have squat to do with me and whether or not I'm cut out for homeschooling. 

Not a darn thing.

It's not about me.

[Cynthia Mosher]

Linda on the move, I think serenbat's comment was a general one, not directed at you. Hopefully she'll clarify that when she gets a chance. 

[serenbat]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

some people are cut out for hsing their kids and others are not

  That's so funny because I read it like it was a response to what I wrote!  I homeschooled my kids until they were 10 and 12, so I have more years of homeschooling experience that many of the moms posting on the homeschooling board. *Most* of those years were successful.

Stating that one of the kids really does best with experienced teachers and the other really works harder when she sees what her peers are up to in core subjects doesn't have squat to do with me and whether or not I'm cut out for homeschooling. 

Not a darn thing.

It's not about me.

 

 

Cynthia was so correct-----------general statement---------nothing more, not like it hasn't been said

pure-general comment based on this thread-yet I get attacked for saying so-geezzzzzzzzzz

I wont bore you with the specifics, but if you look back I couldn't teach my DD to read or do basic math.

Not every teacher will be great at everything but...neither am I.

Some families really shouldn't homeschool, some kids really do do better in school, just like some kids really do better at home.

fact is some can't, some can--doesn't make a parent any less-making my comments is not directed at any one------seems just to be a general fact

can't cut it- doesn't work, not working out---meaning all the same - NOT that the parent (s) are failing 

as I posted, some can find the negative no matter what and disregard the positive 

Edited by serenbat - 7/1/11 at 2:39pm

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AllyRae 

Still, how can you work on reading, writing, math, science, and social studies with only an hour a day?  Do you only do 1 subject a day for one hour and call it a day?  How on earth do you get through an entire year's worth of learning that way, especially since you don't appear to school the entire year?  

Okay, to clarify about the "school year" thing. We do work on things year-round. I'm enrolled with a DL (Distributed Learning) program here in BC. My kids aren't, technically, considered to be homeschooled by the Province. However, the DL I'm with is very unschooling friendly, and focuses on child-led learning. I keep track of what we spend our time on (and it does have to be 25 hours a week), and submit weekly reports to a "Learning Consultant" (certified teacher) who puts them into what she calls "Ministry Speak" (the Ministry of Education) with respect to learning outcomes met, etc. My reports are generally long, because I'm wordy. However, they're also quite informal and chatty (stuff about dd1's questions while we're reading Little House, or about how ds2 coped with challenges with his friends, or how they liked the Body Worlds exhibit or whatever).

When I say that my "school year" is over, I mean that I don't have to log hours or submit any reports again until September. I'll make notes over the summer, and talk to the kids to begin preparing for writing up their Learning Plans for next year. And, we'll do lots of activities, work, etc. (dd1 was working on both math and spelling yesterday, actually, and we were at Science World for four hours on Wednesday). We just aren't formally schooling right now.

The average school probably works on EACH of those subjects for at LEAST 45 minutes a DAY.  And what about the other subjects a state requires--foreign language, history (ancient, modern, US, and state), art (not crafts...fine art), music (not just beating on plastic drums...learning about the great composers), health/phys ed?  

We don't require a foreign language yet (starts at...think it's grade four, but I'll have to check), but some comments about the other things you mention...

Fine arts: DD1 is in both ballet and piano. I don't count those when I'm talking about how many hours I homeschool. Aside from chauffeuring and paying, I'm not really involved. I lot dd1's piano practice (she practices daily, usually multiple times...but I don't count it as time I spend homeschooling - I'm often doing dishes or nursing dd2 or here on MDC while she plays). She's also just taken out a library book on post-impressionism, which is a new thing for her to be interested in. DS2 is a little shakier on the arts, but he did take some dance classes this year, and is asking about music lessons (can't decide if he wants to learn a horn or percussion, so I'm scouting out a general music class for him). He messes around a little on the piano and his harmonica, but doesn't have a strong interest yet.

History: My two "official" (ie. enrolled with the DL) homelearners have just finished grade two and kindergarten. History isn't actually a requirement, yet. Their social studies is more focused on the community level at this point. You know - what to police officers and firemen do, and where do they work, and what people fill what functions in the community. That, plus a bit of map work, is most of their social studies work, although we also have discussions about politics, the levels they operate on, how they work, etc. We've touched on ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, a little about WWII, and a few other things. This is all child-led (started asking about Greece after seeing The Lightning Thief, talked about WWII around Remembrance Day, etc.).

Health/phys ed: They walk, ride bikes, go to the playground, plus...this year, there was rock climbing, dance and ds2 is taking Tae Kwon Do. We'll be doing some other things next year...not sure what, but some options include ice skating, more swimming lessons (dd1 has a terror of putting her face in the water, so we've let that lapse, which is not okay with me, as we live on the coast, my stepdad owns a sailboat, etc.), and circus classes. We also have extensive discussions about nutrition, the role of rest/sleep, exercise, etc. in maintaining health.

Our state requires all of that in addition to what you've already listed.  No way on this green earth it can be done in 5 hours a week.  It takes longer than 5 hours a week to prepare to teach those.  I do each of the subjects Ohio requires us to do, and it takes about 5-6 hours a day to get through them all.  Are we talking about kids who will prepare for, read, and do the lessons with absolutely no help from the homeschooling parent?  Because in many cases, a fully independent (but not unschooling) study homeschool is also not realistic, especially for children under high school age.
 

We're semi-unschooling, but not fully. We don't use much curriculum (a litlte for language arts, and a little for math)  So...let's see:

Reading and writing. DD1 does either one page of spelling a day, or a full lesson (four pages) a week. There are several variables that affect that. She's constantly writing things, and checking her spelling, etc. She is behind on reading, but is catching up quick, now that she's reached a point where she's ready (she's advanced fully a grade level this year, after not even really taking off until about January or February). She does all this on her own, unless she needs help figuring something out. When we tackle a new concept or format, I'm briefly more involved, but then she just goes on her own. DS2 I don't even worry about. He's already reading at about a grade two level, and I'm not sure where he even learned a lot of it. He reads Boynton board books to his little sister, reads "We Both Read" books (love them!) with me, and happily does pages and pages of workbooks whenever the mood strikes. Neither of them spends a full hour on this each day, but if you factor in the time I spend reading to them, it comes out pretty close. (We're currently working through the Percy Jackson series, and the Little House series, and they get a chapter of each most nights.) My reading "counts", but I don't think of it as homeschooling time, either.

Math: Lots of discussions, which I don't really count as my homeschooling time. They happen at home, in the car, etc. The kids log a lot more math time than I do! I log our discussions, their play with manipulatives, etc. But, I mostly just let them mess around and keep my ears open. If they run into confusion or can't sort something out, I help out. DD1 is close to grade level now (I need to track more of the time they spend on non-number math, as I forget to report measurement, basic geometry, etc.), and ds2 is above grade level.

Science: This is almost totally free form around here. I have a few science kits, but we're about 99% child-led. DD1 is a serious expert on spiders. She understands phases of matter. She has a good grasp on how animals are clasified, with specific knowledge of multiple categories (she especially loves arachnids, insects, mammals, reptiles and birds). She understands basic astonomical ideas. She has an impressive understanding of human anatomy, with special focus on the immune system, circulatory system and skeleton. She's learning about light, colour and magnetism. DS2 is all about the dinosaurs right now, but also likes insects and space. This is all child driven, and from a combination of library books, DVDs (Magic School Bus, Eyewitness, etc.) and lots and lots of conversation. I consider the time I spend reading library books to/with them as time I spend homeschooling, but I don't consider the constant discussions to fit under that umbrella.
 

The kids spend a lot of time learning. I don't spend anywhere near as much time teaching. I've found that if I wait until they're ready, they mostly suck things up like little sponges. And, dd1 learns as much in her 10 minutes with a spelling book as ds1 was learning in an entire English class at the same age. I've had one foot in each world for the last three years, and the public school foot has been there for 13 (ds1 just graduated). The public school stuff involved a lot of wasted time - a whole lot. DS1 was reasonably self-motivated (until the last term, when he finally got tired of jumping stupid hoops), so he did okay...but there was a ton of wasted time. I really can't imagine what I'd spend 5-6 hours a day doing as a homeschooling parent.