Seeking Research (or Personal Experience) that is Anti-Homeschool - Page 5

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

What annoys me about this thread is that, even though some of my experiences are unique because one of my kids has some special needs, some of my experiences are really common to homeschoolers. I know because I spent years talking to them back when I was one! At park days, field trips, homeschool girl scout troops, etc. -- many homeschool moms are tired; feel like they aren't doing enough; worry about the subjects their kids are struggling with; haven't a clue how their child writing compares to peers; would really like to find time to exercise; struggle to keep the house clean, the laundry done and dinner on the table, etc.

Homeschool moms at a park day can talk about the downsides of homeschooling, but it's like they have to put on this big mask when "outsiders" are around.

It's all a mixed bag, school or homeschool. Why is that so hard to admit?

LOL - did you actually read my posts?

Yes - homeschooling parents want to find a life/home balance, are tired, are careful about who they vent t o, sometimes worry about their kids' social interactions and academic progress - JUST LIKE PS parents do.   It's all a mixed bag. It's called parenting. The challenges aren't uniquely negative aspects of homeschooling. Take homeschooling out of the equation and the same amount of time, energy, money and concern will still be expended on the child. That is my point.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

It's all a mixed bag, school or homeschool. Why is that so hard to admit?

I will admit it's a mixed bag.

But, I also know that if I expressed any reservations about having ds1 in public school, people jumped all over me with all the reasons why it was best, even though there were clear problems with both the education he was receiving and the social environment. If I say one word to anyone about any issues I'm having with dd1 or ds2, I am immediately told that these problems would basically vanish if I put him in public school. DS2 hasn't yet been formally assessed, but I'm quite sure he has special needs of some kind - the schools may or may not be able to help him, but those needs aren't going to go away in public school. (I know another boy with very similar issues to ds2, who is a couple of years older, and in public school, and things are going steadily downhill.) If I sometimes paint an overly rosy picture, it's probably because I don't want lecture 355 about how dd1 wouldn't be socially anxious if she were in public school (yes, she would - she's a lot like I was in that respect, and public school was a nightmare!), and ds2's behavioural issues would just go away (they didn't in preschool) and all the rest of that crap. Yes - sometimes, I wish I could carve out more "me time". Sometimes, I wish I could get more sleep, although that has more to do with dd2 than the others! But, I don't want to hear about how great the public schools are and how they can solve all my problems. People seem to overlook that I've been there and doing that the entire time I've also been homeschooling.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by meetoo 

to karenwith4: the negatives I listed where not parenting problems.Not being able to spend enough time with my littlest child was a direct result of homeschooing.   Not knowing how to grade my oldest writing was a real negative (IMO) to homeschooling and a very common problem according to the people I talked to. This is not at all a parenting problem. Not having as large of a peer group to choose friends from was a negative (again this is all my opinion) it had nothing to do with my parenting. The stress of being 100% responsible for their education is not something that is an extention of parenting. It is something unique to homeschooling. Even my child that works best for the teacher wasn't a parenting problem. She is my easiest kid by far. lol   There really are pros and cons to everything in life. I don't know why it would be so hard to understand that? And nobody on this thread said school was always right about everything. I disagree with quite a few things about schools.....Enough to have homeschooled and to be open to doing it again.  lol  The OP asked for negatives of homeschooling so those who have done both gave them to her. Maybe homeschooling for you is all peaches and roses, but it is not like that for many people. Many homeschoolers struggle with doing it all, and the negative aspects of homeschooling. If we do go back to homeschooling it will be because the positives of it are out weighing the negatives. Not because homeschooling is a perfect form of education without any negatives.  

That's cool - we can agree to disagree although I am not sure we do disagree much. I'm not saying your concerns aren't valid. And just to clarify I didn't say that your concerns about homeschooling are caused by a parenting problem.  I just don't think worrying about a homeschooled child's social circle is dramatically different than worrying about a public schooled child's social interactions. It's part and parcel of parenting. I have the same big picture concerns as my girlfriends who send their kids to PS. Parenting isn't all peaches and roses regardless of how you educate your child.

Maybe my friends are unique, but my girlfriends who PS their kids spend time finding library books, hauling their kids to programs, organize activities and go on field trips,  struggle over what's appropriate for their kids education and wonder if they are keeping up, worry about social stuff and spending enough time with all their kids individually, don't have enough time/energy to do all the laundry/cook dinner/get to the gym/have date  nights with their husbands. None of that is unique to homeschoolers.  If as a PS parent you don't admit to any of that, then you are doing exactly what you and Linda are accusing homeschoolers of doing - not being honest.  These things aren't negatives, and they aren't about homeschooling. It's just the way parenting (not schooling) works.

[ameliabedelia]

But, I also know that if I expressed any reservations about having ds1 in public school, people jumped all over me with all the reasons why it was best, even though there were clear problems with both the education he was receiving and the social environment. If I say one word to anyone about any issues I'm having with dd1 or ds2, I am immediately told that these problems would basically vanish if I put him in public school.

 Yes, I think this is an important point.  If  school isn't going well, it's not as though everyone starts suggesting that a child be homeschooled.   Everyone offers suggestions about working within the school system to better the experience.    Yet, when homeschooling isn't working, everyone seems to just immediately jump to the conclusion to put the child in school.   And, that may be the best option in some cases, just like it may be the best option for some schooled kids to be homeschooled.  But it isn't always, and oftentimes problems at home are still problems in school...the only difference is that now it is also the teacher's/school's problem. .

School is automatically seen as the "default" and homeschooling is only acceptable if it is going "well".  Which is why homeschoolers are hesitant to talk about the difficulties with non-homeschoolers.

Until homeschooling is seen on equal ground with non-homeschooling, homeschoolers with continue to only share their problems with people on the "inside"  because sometimes when things aren't going well, they want to solve the problem within the context of homeschooling and not be immediately told that they should put their kid in school.  For some homeschoolers that may not be an option, just like for many non-homeschoolers, homeschooling is not an option.  Each family makes their own choice based on many factors.

Yes - homeschooling parents want to find a life/home balance, are tired, are careful about who they vent t o, sometimes worry about their kids' social interactions and academic progress - JUST LIKE PS parents do.   It's all a mixed bag. It's called parenting. The challenges aren't uniquely negative aspects of homeschooling. Take homeschooling out of the equation and the same amount of time, energy, money and concern will still be expended on the child. That is my point.

Yes, I definitely agree. Parenting is hard no matter how you do it.  Homeschooling and non-homeschooling both have issues and problems.  Which is why each family needs to examine their values and decide what is right for them.  FWIW...I was more tired and had less time to exercise, etc.  when my kids were younger (before homeschooling) than I am now (with older kids and homeschooling).

[ameliabedelia]

Also, to the OP, I'm not sure what you wanted from this thread, but I wanted to say that I don't think you can't really decide to homeschool or not based on a list of pros and cons.  Homeschooling looks differently for each family, and each family does it a bit differently.  All you can do is examine your values and what is important to you and look for where your heart and gut is leading you.  If that is leading you to homeschool, then give it a try.  You can always change.  Just like if that is leading you to a B&M school, then give it a try and you can always try homeschooling later.   People always say "follow your gut" and I think in choosing an education choice, this is good advice.    Nothing is set in stone, and you can always change later.

[Linda on the move]

Stormbride,

I totally agree that people are quick to blame homeschooling for children's basic personalities. One of my kids is outgoing and bubbly, and when we were homeschooling, I was told repeatedly that the problem was that she wasn't around other kids enough, she wasn't getting enough socialization. My other child is extremely quiet, shy, and easily overwhelmed. I was repeatedly told that the problem was that she wasn't around other kids enough, she wasn't getting enough socialization. It drove me BATTY!

Kids are who they are. With my children having the same genes and being raised with the same basic parenting and yet being so opposite, I'm constantly amazed at people believing that our parenting choices determine what our kids are like. And homeschooling is just one of many choices that a parent makes.
 

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 
Maybe my friends are unique, but my girlfriends who PS their kids spend time finding library books, hauling their kids to programs, organize activities and go on field trips,  struggle over what's appropriate for their kids education and wonder if they are keeping up, worry about social stuff and spending enough time with all their kids individually, don't have enough time/energy to do all the laundry/cook dinner/get to the gym/have date  nights with their husbands. None of that is unique to homeschoolers.  If as a PS parent you don't admit to any of that, then you are doing exactly what you and Linda are accusing homeschoolers of doing - not being honest.  These things aren't negatives, and they aren't about homeschooling. It's just the way parenting (not schooling) works.

My kids spend 6.5 hours a day, 180 days of the year in a place where other highly qualified and caring adults do things like teach math lessons, led science experiments, facilitate discussions about literature, etc. Yes, I drive my kids to the library, but if you are not putting in more hours than I do on your kids education, then IMHO, your kids are getting short changed.  You really ought to be doing more than me to make up for what your kids aren't getting by going to a wonderful school like the one my kids go to. Why not own up to that?

Having done both, it's FAR easier to do all the other stuff (like shopping and taking care of myself) when I have regular breaks from my kids, other people teach them lots of stuff, and they have social options built right into their day. I have less total to do, and more time in which to do it.

Having kids in a school *that works for them* is easier and less time consuming that homeschooling.

The deal is that not every child has a school available that works for them, and some moms love homeschooling so much that they prefer it even if there is a wonderful school available for their child. That's all OK. I'm not saying school is the best option for every child or every mother. I'm saying that homeschooling takes time and effort to do it well.

As far as "struggling over my kids education,"  I have the privilege of having regular conferences with teachers who work my kids all the time and have worked with lots of other kids. I love parent teacher conferences so much. I love being part of a TEAM working on my kids education rather than going it alone.

[AllyRae]

YES YES YES!!!!  I agree with all of this!  As a homeschooler AND as a parent who used to have a child in school.  Seriously, I really can't believe people think they can put very very little time and effort into homeschooling and think that's ok.  If you think that's all they're getting at public schools, you really have a warped view of what school is.  And at public school, that responsibility is split between various teachers.  With homeschooling, the primary burden of coordinating and providing academic and art instruction, socialization, and enrichment is up to the parent.  That is a huge job.  And part of the reason I have to deal with inlaws that think homeschooling is a joke and is going to ruin our son is because as public school teachers, they were faced with tons of children re-entering the school system after sub-par homeschooling where they were literally given an hour or two a day of instruction and then were left to their own devices (or video games.)  When in reality, we have a very wonderful homeschooling community in our area, and judging from talking to other parents, at least 5 hours a day of teaching is the norm, on top of the tremendous amount of effort it takes to make sure you provide opportunities for a well-rounded enriching stimulating development.
 

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Stormbride,

I totally agree that people are quick to blame homeschooling for children's basic personalities. One of my kids is outgoing and bubbly, and when we were homeschooling, I was told repeatedly that the problem was that she wasn't around other kids enough, she wasn't getting enough socialization. My other child is extremely quiet, shy, and easily overwhelmed. I was repeatedly told that the problem was that she wasn't around other kids enough, she wasn't getting enough socialization. It drove me BATTY!

Kids are who they are. With my children having the same genes and being raised with the same basic parenting and yet being so opposite, I'm constantly amazed at people believing that our parenting choices determine what our kids are like. And homeschooling is just one of many choices that a parent makes.
 

My kids spend 6.5 hours a day, 180 days of the year in a place where other highly qualified and caring adults do things like teach math lessons, led science experiments, facilitate discussions about literature, etc. Yes, I drive my kids to the library, but if you are not putting in more hours than I do on your kids education, then IMHO, your kids are getting short changed.  You really ought to be doing more than me to make up for what your kids aren't getting by going to a wonderful school like the one my kids go to. Why not own up to that?

Having done both, it's FAR easier to do all the other stuff (like shopping and taking care of myself) when I have regular breaks from my kids, other people teach them lots of stuff, and they have social options built right into their day. I have less total to do, and more time in which to do it.

Having kids in a school *that works for them* is easier and less time consuming that homeschooling.

The deal is that not every child has a school available that works for them, and some moms love homeschooling so much that they prefer it even if there is a wonderful school available for their child. That's all OK. I'm not saying school is the best option for every child or every mother. I'm saying that homeschooling takes time and effort to do it well.

As far as "struggling over my kids education,"  I have the privilege of having regular conferences with teachers who work my kids all the time and have worked with lots of other kids. I love parent teacher conferences so much. I love being part of a TEAM working on my kids education rather than going it alone.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Stormbride,

I totally agree that people are quick to blame homeschooling for children's basic personalities. One of my kids is outgoing and bubbly, and when we were homeschooling, I was told repeatedly that the problem was that she wasn't around other kids enough, she wasn't getting enough socialization. My other child is extremely quiet, shy, and easily overwhelmed. I was repeatedly told that the problem was that she wasn't around other kids enough, she wasn't getting enough socialization. It drove me BATTY!

Kids are who they are. With my children having the same genes and being raised with the same basic parenting and yet being so opposite, I'm constantly amazed at people believing that our parenting choices determine what our kids are like. And homeschooling is just one of many choices that a parent makes.
 

My kids spend 6.5 hours a day, 180 days of the year in a place where other highly qualified and caring adults do things like teach math lessons, led science experiments, facilitate discussions about literature, etc. Yes, I drive my kids to the library, but if you are not putting in more hours than I do on your kids education, then IMHO, your kids are getting short changed.  You really ought to be doing more than me to make up for what your kids aren't getting by going to a wonderful school like the one my kids go to. Why not own up to that?

Having done both, it's FAR easier to do all the other stuff (like shopping and taking care of myself) when I have regular breaks from my kids, other people teach them lots of stuff, and they have social options built right into their day. I have less total to do, and more time in which to do it.

Having kids in a school *that works for them* is easier and less time consuming that homeschooling.

The deal is that not every child has a school available that works for them, and some moms love homeschooling so much that they prefer it even if there is a wonderful school available for their child. That's all OK. I'm not saying school is the best option for every child or every mother. I'm saying that homeschooling takes time and effort to do it well.

As far as "struggling over my kids education,"  I have the privilege of having regular conferences with teachers who work my kids all the time and have worked with lots of other kids. I love parent teacher conferences so much. I love being part of a TEAM working on my kids education rather than going it alone.

Thanks for the thinly veiled insults and snark Linda.  Nice. We're talking past each other.  No one, including me, ever said homeschooling doesn't take time and energy and your comment that my kids, whom you know nothing about, are lacking is uncalled for. But rather typical.

I've started and erased a few responses to you about this. It's just not worth it. Every opportunity you can you rail against homeschooling and those who find it to be positve for their kids and personally enjoyable and fulfilling.  You seem unwilling or unable to accept that many of us don't experience the litany of negatives you did and that we all must be hiding something or lying. We're not. Our struggles are no different than those of all parents. That was my point which you seem determined to ignore.  I'm sorry homeschooling was such a bad experience for you and your kids. I'm glad your kids are now in a good place with people who care deeply about their education and who are willing and able to support them so that you don't have to struggle any longer.

[serenbat]

Having done both, it's FAR easier to do all the other stuff (like shopping and taking care of myself) when I have regular breaks from my kids, other people teach them lots of stuff, and they have social options built right into their day. I have less total to do, and more time in which to do it.

As far as "struggling over my kids education,"  I have the privilege of having regular conferences with teachers who work my kids all the time and have worked with lots of other kids. I love parent teacher conferences so much. I love being part of a TEAM working on my kids education rather than going it alone.

Stating that one of the kids really does best with experienced teachers and the other really works harder when she sees what her peers are up to in core subjects doesn't have squat to do with me and whether or not I'm cut out for homeschooling. 

Not a darn thing.

It's not about me.

From your own words it really does come across that it is about you.

It seems that you are better able to parent when you are not faced with the tasks of HSing----it does not seem that HS in it self (as I read what the OP wanted) was the issue, more so you had an issue with different aspects and seem not to equate your inability as not the cause here. I'm really baffled by your lack of owing up when you are requesting it from others.

I certainly understand how some years things do work and other times they don't. One post you state how great it was yet your children are now better off---comes across as quite a contradiction. 

It seems unfortunate to lay so much blame on HS the way you are and the push you are asserting that school is far better, when the reality appears that you had trouble (not HS for what it is) and you are the one that is better off. Less to do, more free time, etc.

 You keep railing and railing against those that do have a positive experience. I understand it didn't keep working out for you but why keep bashing the way you are?

The use of certain words (highly qualified, real teachers, experienced teachers, etc.) that you use come across as extremely demeaning to those who HS.   

I find "spit" offensive & immature--           that's just me------anti-SPIT!

Edited by serenbat - 7/4/11 at 7:45am

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AllyRae 

YES YES YES!!!!  I agree with all of this!  As a homeschooler AND as a parent who used to have a child in school.  Seriously, I really can't believe people think they can put very very little time and effort into homeschooling and think that's ok.  If you think that's all they're getting at public schools, you really have a warped view of what school is.  And at public school, that responsibility is split between various teachers.  

How so? Maybe your system is different, but ds1 had one teacher per year, until 8th grade. That teacher handled all subjects.

In any case, I went through the public school system myself, and have had a son in the public school system for the past 13 years. I don't have a warped idea of what that system is. Obviously, it varies from school to school, but I've been profoundly unimpressed. I'm not the best homeschooling parent, but dd1 is getting every bit as good an education as ds1 did, and spending a fraction of the time that he spent on formal studies.

With homeschooling, the primary burden of coordinating and providing academic and art instruction, socialization, and enrichment is up to the parent.  That is a huge job.  And part of the reason I have to deal with inlaws that think homeschooling is a joke and is going to ruin our son is because as public school teachers, they were faced with tons of children re-entering the school system after sub-par homeschooling where they were literally given an hour or two a day of instruction and then were left to their own devices (or video games.)  

I know homeschooling parents who were public school teachers themselves, and still only spend an hour or so a day on actual instruction. Mind you, most of the homeschooling parents that I've met IRL are very unlikely to leave their kids to video games when they're not being instructed. After being through school myself, and knowing how much of my time was wasted while I was supposedly receiving instruction, I can't even fathom how five hours a day of one-on-one would be close to necessary. (I'm not criticizing. It just boggles my mind. If I could keep my kids focused that long, they'd learn a minimum of twice what I did in any given school day.)

When in reality, we have a very wonderful homeschooling community in our area, and judging from talking to other parents, at least 5 hours a day of teaching is the norm, on top of the tremendous amount of effort it takes to make sure you provide opportunities for a well-rounded enriching stimulating development.
 

I think I'll talk about this with some of my local homeschooling friends. We've never discussed actual time spent on instruction, but I don't think any of them come close to five hours a day.

[ameliabedelia]

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

YES YES YES!!!!  I agree with all of this!  As a homeschooler AND as a parent who used to have a child in school.  Seriously, I really can't believe people think they can put very very little time and effort into homeschooling and think that's ok.  If you think that's all they're getting at public schools, you really have a warped view of what school is.  And at public school, that responsibility is split between various teachers.  With homeschooling, the primary burden of coordinating and providing academic and art instruction, socialization, and enrichment is up to the parent.  That is a huge job.  And part of the reason I have to deal with inlaws that think homeschooling is a joke and is going to ruin our son is because as public school teachers, they were faced with tons of children re-entering the school system after sub-par homeschooling where they were literally given an hour or two a day of instruction and then were left to their own devices (or video games.)  When in reality, we have a very wonderful homeschooling community in our area, and judging from talking to other parents, at least 5 hours a day of teaching is the norm, on top of the tremendous amount of effort it takes to make sure you provide opportunities for a well-rounded enriching stimulating development.

 Some kids pick up on things a lot faster than other kids. It make take one child 10 minutes to grasp a concept that another child takes 2 weeks to get. Some children are more self-motivated than others.   Some children are better at working independently than others.  All children are different.  Plus, some parents are more efficient than others.   It's crazy to say that all homeschoolers need to do x minutes of instruction per day.  That is school stuff.  The whole point of homeschooling is so you can tailor your instruction to your child.   If you child gets x math concept in 10 minutes, there is no point on harping on it for 30, just so they get their "30 minutes" of instruction in.

I'm one of those parents who only does 1 to  1 1/2 hours with my K/1 student and she is doing just fine.  A year ago she couldn't read, and now she reads rather well.  I think that is pretty darn good.  I mean, the whole goal of K is to teach reading right, and lots of public schooled kids aren't reading at the starts of 1st grade.  Her math skills and knowledge have increased.  A year ago, she couldn't write all her letters and now she can.   A year ago she couldn't write sentences and spell simple words, and now she can all on her own.   So, yes it is definitely possible for a younger child anyway to get everything they need in 1 hour of parent instruction.

My older child does do more school, but i would say 5-6 hours is a "bad" day.  A, "good" day (and typical day) would be 4 hours, and her skills have all improved.  She is learning.  In some subjects she knows more than I do (ie. history, she loves history and spends a lot of time reading history books on her own, she is more knowledgable about that than *I* am).  She spends hours a day reading on her own.  A year ago she didn't know cursive, or her multiplication tables or what direct object is, or what the word "kinesis" means or that "contemporary" means "with time" or who Booker T Washington is, or who Rembrant was, or the difference between whales and dolphins and now she knows all that (and more).   And, I bet a lot of public schooled kids going into 4th grade may not know all that.

Just because YOU can't imagine doing less than 5 hours of school a day, doesn't mean that other parents (with different children) can't do it in less.

I don't struggle and worry about my kids education.  I see almost every day that they know more than i thought, that they are learning new things, that they are taking initiative.  Every day I see them growing and maturing and improving in their skills.   Plus, I like teaching my kids and I see value in them learning something *from their mother and father*.  To this day, I remember the things my mothers and father taught me (how to cook, how to sew, how to take care of a car) more than I remember things that a teacher taught me.  I think in our society we are so used to outsourcing all instruction of our kids to experts (not just school, but swimming lessons, music lessons, art lessons, etc.) that I think we forget that as parents we are capable of teaching more than we think.  Of course, my kids do take lessons from an expert in subjects I am not skilled at (ie. like music/piano)..but other things like swimming, my daughter had becomes a much better instructor from working with me than she ever did during her swimming lessons.

[Callimom]

I agree ameliabedelia. I think so much depends on the kids, on the style of homeschooling and on the parent's perceptions of what is "work".

My oldest works very independently. He needs some support from me but no where near 5 hours a day. And while we certainly talk about what he is learning and I am somewhat responsible for putting resources and opportunities in his path, when we watch DVDs together, go on field trips, share interesting links or books or have discussions and debates, etc I don't separate that into parenting and homeschooling. It's all the same thing to me. And for for the record AllyRae he's far above grade level in all subjects with the possible exception of penmanship (he has dysgraphia) and a second language which he was scared off by a hideous french teacher when he was in school. You would probably be appalled at how little time I spend planning his education but it's not mine to orchestate. He learns independently at a phenomenal rate.

My younger three because of learning differences and age/stage need something slightly different from me. We work at the table doing skills work for about 60-90 minutes a day x 4 or 5 days a week - so I guess that would make me a subpar neglectful homeschooler .  The prep work for that is minimal - it's an "open the book and  do the next thing kind of work". We also have independent reading time and family reading time after lunch most days for about an hour or so depending on what else we have on the go, the weather, how people are feeling etc.  The rest they learn more organically or in ways that we don't separate from parenting (like playing games, reading to them, joining them in exploring their interests, taking them interesting places, watching DVDs together,  gardening, drawing or hiking together, answering their questions, and participating in opportunities like sports, lessons, co-ops, science or geography fairs, writing or robotics competitions.)  These are things our PS friends do as well. We do more of them because we have the time and because my kids haven't learned to shut down their curiousity so they are thrilled to visit museums, galleries, watch documentaries etc. Much of that isn't planned either. We take advantage of opportunities as they come up and build on them. It's not a "huge job" to me. Its what parenting and living is IMO.

Perhaps our definitions of "teaching" are different. Really I can't imagine the need for 5 hours of desk time a day. Even kids in school don't get that. And neither my sister or BIL who are both teachers don't spend 1-2 hours a every day planning (marking maybe but not planning). The most structured homeschoolers I know in our 100+ family homeschool group don't spend 5 hours a day on instruction or table time unless the kids are in their last years of highschool. Maybe it is our different locations that affect what we "count" as homeschooling.  My province has no reporting requirements.

[AllyRae]

Stormbride...

Around here, even elementary kids have a primary teacher, and then one for art, one for foreign language, one for PE, and one for music.  DS, before he was homeschooled, had 4 primary teachers, plus one for art, one that did spanish, and the PE/Music teacher (she did both).  

And 5 hours goes by fast...we're doing experiments together, reading the lessons together, etc.  And I'm not yapping at him for 5 hours straight...when he's doing art or writing an assignment, I work with his siblings.  But, he does get a lot of focused one on one time...longer than an hour.  Mainly because at his age and ability level, most everything has to be taught to him and he needs me to work with him on it, instead of letting him go at it alone.  And he really likes having me work with him as well because he likes the interaction.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

Perhaps our definitions of "teaching" are different. Really I can't imagine the need for 5 hours of desk time a day. Even kids in school don't get that. And neither my sister or BIL who are both teachers don't spend 1-2 hours a every day planning (marking maybe but not planning). The most structured homeschoolers I know in our 100+ family homeschool group don't spend 5 hours a day on instruction or table time unless the kids are in their last years of highschool. Maybe it is our different locations that affect what we "count" as homeschooling.  My province has no reporting requirements.

He's not at a desk for 5 hours a day.  Some times, he's outside painting a picture, or we're reading lessons on the porch swing, or we're in the kitchen doing science experiements, or we're at the piano playing it.  

And yes, my son got that in school.  He went to a Montessori school where he did a 3 hour work block in the morning, had lunch and recess, and had a 2 hour work block in the afternoon, followed by art/music/pe.  And that was in preschool, kindy, AND 1st grade.  Kids don't just sit around in public schools or in private schools picking their butts and texting their friends...most of the time, they are engaged in educational work. ;-)

[ameliabedelia]

and on the parent's perceptions of what is "work".

I think this is true as well.  I consider my child's sports activities or running around the playground, or swimming at the pool or our daily walks as "PE" (for purposes of reporting to the school dept) but I don't count that as part of school time.  I just count it as parenting,   I don't count her piano lessons or practice time as part of "homeschool" since she would do that anyway. even if she went to regular school. I don't count our game of "trivia" that we play on our daily walks as "school", (but it is learning).  I don't count all the art projects and stuff they do on their own as "school", even though it is educational.  Yesterday (a Sunday, (a day we don't traditionally do school) my girls all on their own made a castle and a house out of cardboard boxes, decorated them, cut out windows, made towers, etc.  They did this all on their own. Pretty good art project, yet, it wasn't traditional "school" and was totally self-directed and self-initiated. I don't consider the 1,000,000,000 drawings they make each day as "school", though it is certainly "art".  I don't consider all the historical books my daughter reads on her own volition as "school" but it certainly is learning.   That's the thing with homeschooling.  The lines between what is "school" and what isn't become blurred.

And, all kids are different. Some parents might call reading time as "school".  My kids are both voracious readers, I never have to "encourage" them to read so I never count their independent reading as school.  I suppose if they weren't so inclined to do it on their own, I might.   My kids also love arts and crafts.  They love making arts and crafts and frequently initiate those projects all on their own.  I don't consider that "school.". 

THe only things I consider school or things which are parent-initiated and directed and out of our school books.   Not all the fun, educational stuff they do on their own or stuff they would do anyway, even if they did go to regular school.

[serenbat]

I just don't get this whole "hour" thing!

in states that you are required to record/report hours-how is this done? (I have "days" not hours so this is new to me)--when you state has a "snow-day" it is made up-do you have only x amount of hours within 360 or within state dates (school year time)?

just really wondering how this is--sorry to get off topic (I do get that some just school longer hours, that is not what I am interested in - I want to know how this is documented and what counts-thank you)

again to the OP I suppose this could factor into a discussion but I don't know what your state regs are

Edited by serenbat - 7/4/11 at 8:18am

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

I think that the "negatives" around homeschooling are often the same as the negatives around parenting and would for the most part be experienced regardless of the choice of schooling because so much of it is a function of the parent-child dynamic, personalities and relationship. Homeschooling may amplify them - or not.  Kids - regardless of education choice - require money, time, attention, chauffering. Parents will spend time reserving library books, organizing programs, volunteering, coaching, assisting with academics etc .  There will be money spent on lessons, curriculum/school supplies, books, sports, etc. There will be parenting struggles, academic struggles, missed cues, social issues to navigate, things to worry about regardless of educational choice etc. Parents get burned out - that's not homeschool dependent - I have plenty of schooling parent friends who are burnt out.

All of this is the nature of parenting for some parents and some kids.

To lay these out as negatives of homeschooling is IMO misleading because it assumes that none of this would happen without homeschooling and that's just not the case. Our experience of parenting our kids has a lot in common regardless of our educational choices, and our differences often have more to do with our own personal perspectives and thresholds, rather than our educational choices.

I'm not saying that there aren't challenges for homeschooling parents or that for some people, some of these challenges may be mitigated by using public school. (For other families their challenges would be amplified by sending kids to public school).  I think it is admirable to look to the experience of others to help us weigh our own options,  but I'd like to suggest to the OP that much of what is laid out here as negatives of homeschooling may have more connection to the experience of parenting in general than to educational choice. 

While I personally don't consider them negatives (or wholly negative) the differences for my family btn our homeschooling and public schooling come down to a few key ones:

~ responsibility - I feel far more responsible for my children's education as a homeschooler than I did as a public school parent. For the most part this is a positive but there are times that it can weigh on me.

~ cost - I think this one is a wash for us as far as lessons, curriculum etc go but homeschooling does mean that I forego the income I probably could have been earning if I could work full time in the workforce in my former field. The flip side of this is that homeschooling has lead to a couple of part time business opportunities, and has in many ways decreased our cost of living.

~ time/work-life balance - I like spending time with my kids and have found ways to pursue my own interests and passions while homeschooling. For me personally homeschooling has lead to personal growth and a wider world. It hasn't meant losing myself. But I can see how that could happen for others and it is something I am mindful of for myself.

As far as my kids go I think that for them homeschooling has been overwhelmingly positive. We'll see what they say when they are adults. :)

This focuses on the parents and the negatives they face. To consider homeschooling negatives only from the parent's perspective misses the point. 

I think it's important to consider the homeschooled child's perspective:  

- S/he may have a different learning style than the homeschooling parent is familiar with and the parent may not be able or willing to adjust. Over the course of school life, a child will encounter many teachers who will use different methods and approaches.  

- S/he may accept a parent's bias (even unspoken) about certain subjects and decide that s/he can't perform well in the subject or that the subject isn't important e.g. the math-phobic parent who avoids numbers. In school, s/he will meet teachers and classmates who can encourage and motivate her/him in these areas. 

- S/he may be stereotyped into a certain role in the family ("the responsible one", "the baby", "the peacemaker who always compromises") with few or no opportunities to explore other roles

- S/he may miss out on the inspiration and motivation from other students. People often talk about negative peer pressure/influence, but it can be hugely positive too. 

- Learning alone or with just a few siblings, s/he may miss out on exposure to different perspectives, ideas, and problem-solving methods that occurs when working in groups with diverse members. Group work nurtures critical thinking skills. In a group, s/he is more likely to be confronted with an idea that conflicts with her/his understanding. S/he'll seek new information to clarify the issues, consider dissenting or different ideas, and have to justify her own conclusions. Studies show that group work can result in better achievement, engagement, more developed critical thinking skills and better problem solving than independent work. 

Of course, these challenges are not inevitable nor insurmountable for a homeschooling family. They do occur, though, and need to be acknowledged. 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 



- S/he may have a different learning style than the homeschooling parent is familiar with and the parent may not be able or willing to adjust. Over the course of school life, a child will encounter many teachers who will use different methods and approaches.  

- S/he may accept a parent's bias (even unspoken) about certain subjects and decide that s/he can't perform well in the subject or that the subject isn't important e.g. the math-phobic parent who avoids numbers. In school, s/he will meet teachers and classmates who can encourage and motivate her/him in these areas. 

- S/he may be stereotyped into a certain role in the family ("the responsible one", "the baby", "the peacemaker who always compromises") with few or no opportunities to explore other roles

I've run into all three of these in the school system, as well. They're not negatives, or potential negatives, of homeschooling. They're potential negatives of education, in general.

- S/he may miss out on the inspiration and motivation from other students. People often talk about negative peer pressure/influence, but it can be hugely positive too. 

I've heard that, and ds1 is proof ot it. I honestly can't recall more than a handful of positive peer interactions, at least in class, in all of high school. It was a little better in elementary, but the negative peer interactions still outweighed the positives.

- Learning alone or with just a few siblings, s/he may miss out on exposure to different perspectives, ideas, and problem-solving methods that occurs when working in groups with diverse members. Group work nurtures critical thinking skills. In a group, s/he is more likely to be confronted with an idea that conflicts with her/his understanding. S/he'll seek new information to clarify the issues, consider dissenting or different ideas, and have to justify her own conclusions. Studies show that group work can result in better achievement, engagement, more developed critical thinking skills and better problem solving than independent work. 

I'd honestly never thought of this, but that's probably because I didn't participate in group work - ever. I hated it with ever fiber of my being, and simply didn't do anything. Mind you, I still don't understand how anybody goes through life without being confronted with ideas that conflict with their own understanding. It's happened to me with family members, friends, my husband, multiple books, movies, etc. I definitely didn't need an assigned group to be exposed to different perspectives, ideas, etc. That's what happens in life - at home, at work, etc.

Edited by Storm Bride - 7/4/11 at 1:26pm

[GuildJenn]

Storm Bride, that's so sad about the negative interactions. At my son's Montessori the kids are so lovely together. We were out at a classmate's this weekend and they spent about 5 minutes saying "I love you" at the end of the evening, which isn't that uncommon for the end of the day.
 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn 

Storm Bride, that's so sad about the negative interactions. At my son's Montessori the kids are so lovely together. We were out at a classmate's this weekend and they spent about 5 minutes saying "I love you" at the end of the evening, which isn't that uncommon for the end of the day.
 

DS1 had a bit more of this kind of experience (mind you, he's never been socially challenged, and I am - very much so). I remember almost every kid in his 3rd grade class offering him special treats and stuff for a couple days after his dad went to jail, and that was really sweet. He also had a lot of positive interactions in high school, to the point that, when asked to write a short essay on his sources of inspiration, he chose his friends. But, ds1 is one of those people who is just naturally good with other people, and gets along well with others. The very first thing I heard about him at a parent-teacher (way back in kindy!) was "he's such a kind boy - he's always trying to help out the other kids". The first girl who had a crush on him was a kindy classmate, because he always got down her water glass for her at snack time (she was tiny, and couldn't reach). He was, and is, very self-assured, and rolled with things very well. But, we're not all like that. Homeschooling can have its downsides, for sure. But, I find a lot of the things people cite as downsides of homeschooling can also be very much present in the school systems. I didn't like the academic side of school - it was amazingly boring and soooo repetitive - but the social side was a living hell. (To put it in context...losing Aaron was the worst experience of my life, followed by my c-sections and my miscarriages, which were each about as bad as the other. Right after that comes high school, roughly tied with the last two years of my emotionally abusive first marriage. It was bad. I'm 43, and I still occasionally come across issues and reactions that date back to the "other kids" at school...even 15 years after most of them apologized to me.)