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War between the Mom's - Page 6

post #101 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaMunchkin View Post




I'd rephrase that if I were you ... smile.gif ... it can be read to imply if you (general) don't care about the mommy wars, then you don't care about your children.  Or, if you don't care about your children, then you don't care about mommy wars.  There's something upstream about something similar.

 

Personally, in my own life, I happen to care very deeply about my children but don't care in the least about the mommy war (it doesn't bother me much but I read and follow to learn more).  I probably am not the only one.  No, I am not upset with what you said, but someone else might.  I think they can be mutually exclusive - no data to back it up, but I wouldn't discount all possiblities quite yet, which are:

- care about mommy wars, care about children

- don't care about wars, care about children

- care about wars, don't care about children

- don't care about wars, don't care about children

 

Another possible spin off?  What does it mean if you don't care about the mommy wars?  Are you a good/bad parent or something? This is getting fun ... lol.gif ...

 

 

The first part of your comment is a brain twister!  orngtongue.gif  I suppose it could mean that if you (general you) don't care about the mommy wars, then you must not care about your children?

 

To clarify, I didn't mean that.  I guess what I was inartfully trying to say is that in my observation, the people who don't give a flying hoot about parenting probably aren't as likely to be engaged in the mommy wars.  Just my take on it, but the mommy wars seem to be about parents desparately trying to justify their choices and defend their choices.  I think a lot of this arises out of insecurity on all sides.  People don't want to be in a position where they feel bad about their choices and about parenting, because let's face it, parenting is a huge and daunting task!  Joyful, yes.  Hard, you bet.  Even the most secure among us have the occassional doubt as to if what we are doing is right.

 

Regarding the question of people who don't care about the mommy wars and whether they are good parents?  Maybe that is a third group out there and they should be admired for ploughing ahead with proverbial blinders, confident in their choices, making a real effort to do what is best for their kids.  I'd like to count myself as one of those people because I'd like to think that whatever other people say doesn't really bother me, and that I feel secure in my choices.  I'll be the first to admit, however, that I can get caught up in the drama on certian issues.  I wish I could say with confidence that I don't care, and wish that any energy could be directed at real issues that hurt women and children and families. 

 

 

post #102 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.

 

Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war." About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do. 


I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're on.  I see so many comments on MDC about dumping kids in daycare, daycare raising your kids, and on and on.  I very rarely, at least on MDC, see wohm bashing on sahm.  I'm not a sahm, so obviously I don't hear the same comments that you probably do.  I do think saying someone is having daycare raise their children is one of the most insulting things I've ever heard as a working mom.

 

I've never stayed home with my kids, except for maternity leaves.  And I personally, have never said one word against sahms. 
 

 

post #103 of 289


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post

I do think saying someone is having daycare raise their children is one of the most insulting things I've ever heard as a working mom.

 

 



I think parents are responsible for their children and childcare choices.

 

I do think that almost everyone has help in raising their children.  It takes a village and all that.  Some of us use/need/want more help than others.  I know I have had help raising my children.

 

I think there is a line at which a parent can no longer said to be the primary rearer of their children.  I do think time spent with children and holding responsibility for their care comes into play.  I absolutely think almost all working parents are the primary raisers of their children.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #104 of 289


Just using this thread as an example.  SAHM slinging insults...7.  WOHM slinging insults....1. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

 Personally, I cant imagine being away from my kid for that many hours a week, but a lot of women make a lot of money and can afford to send their kids to good schools and provide a stable financial situation (which we also dont have).
 
My neighboor wants to raise a kid who can get a good job, afford a nice apartment in the city, marry a well off man (which is why she should not eat sweet rolls:eyesroll ) and have lots of little babies (as long as they arent with a black man) for her to tell they are getting too fat too. We have totally different priorities. She works outside the home, sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and sends them to grandma's on the weekend. She spends just enough time with them to tell them everything they are doing wrong.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by motherhendoula View Post

 by the 90's it was simply assumed Mom was going back to work as most couples need two incomes to pay their mortgage, two cars, retirement fund, college fund, student loan and credit card debts.  

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post



 I SAH because its my priority. I'd rather be with my kid than making money. I dont want to teach my child that money is super important. We have chosen to live with less money than most people. We are very frugal. I dont buy brand new clothing often, I dont drive a new car, I dont really go out often, so we dont spend a whole lot of money.I'd rather spend my time gardening, making things from scratch , thrift store shopping, and figuring out ways to be thrifty than going to work for someone else while someone else is watching my kid. I want my life to belong to me 100%, not to my employer or my childcare provider. Yes, we live month to month right now.


 

 



The one derogatory post towards sahms in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenushka View Post

I am not talking about people who are  having "rough time".   I am all for paying for it. Better than for bombs  I am talking about people who on purposely decide to go on welfare because they think that being a SAHM allows them to be a better parent.  Why should I pay for that? It is choice. 

 

 

There is not a shred of scientific evidence that shows that people raise by SAHM are any better than people raised by WAHMs

 

IN 1950, everyone was SAHMs and look at rampant substance abuse and unhappiness of the 1970.

 

As far as "My husband and I waited until we were financially secure enough for me to be a stay-at-home parent before we even tried to conceive.  It wasn't our background that allowed us to save; it was our career opportunities and choices along the way that allowed for that.  I "married well" in that my husband"

 

I do not know, maybe it is unknown fact, but pregnancy can happen without planning. Mother nature does not ask about size of one's bank account.

 

My points is, it is time to stop all of this and demand equal benefits for all. Mothers and fathers need parental leave which is paid and meaningfull. A year that can be split between partners. Universal health care that covers everyone.

 

 

Mommy Wars are product of ridiculous societal inequality and denail of one simple fact....money matters.  Things like paid parental leave, universal healthcare and high qulity availbale day care makes it a better life for all



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandybutter View Post

 Yes, I guess I do feel some of my choices are better for children in general. Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc. I bite my tongue a lot.

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandybutter View Post

 I was expressing my personal thoughts, which are judgements, because we all have them! Those of us who parent mindfully have chosen a certain parenting style for a reason and for some of us, that is counter culture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

 Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change! wink1.gif

wink1.gif


 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

 But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war."



 

 

post #105 of 289

Is some of the examples I agree with you, and in some I really just do not see it.  They are expressing an opinion/telling an anecdote  and using "I" statements.  

 

Do you think it is possible you are sensitive to seeing judgement where little is?  Or maybe I have blinders on, lol.

 

Either way - the bottom line is what to do about it.

 

The first step is seeking understanding.  People sometimes do not think before the write.

 

The second is trying to educate - it may work and it may not, but I do know I have had some ideas change through reading.  

 

On daycare for example (which I have used from time to time) , I absolutely felt like I was raising my children!  I was responsible for finding the daycare, paying the daycare, ensuring kids were dropped off and picked up at the right time and they had everything the daycare prescribed.  I was responsible if  anything went wrong (and things do) to either fix the situation or find a new care provider.  I was the one who had to stay home if my child got sick (and worried about said sick child).  Indeed everything parents do  in raising children- which goes well beyond just giving care, I did.  Oh, and I gave care to for the hours I was home.  

 

The last thing is some people really do hold different ideas than you.  Some of them may be insulting.  That is life and it happens IRL too.  I tend to think most insulting statements come down to:

 

a) perception of the hearer

b) speaking without thinking

c) ignorance/lack of life experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #106 of 289

Of course I'm sensitive to it.  There's only so many times you can be blasted for working and not raising your own kids before you do get sensitive to it.

 

I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare.  I do it." and it would offend sahms though I used all those "I" statements.

post #107 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post

Of course I'm sensitive to it.  There's only so many times you can be blasted for working and not raising your own kids before you do get sensitive to it.

 

I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare.  I do it." and it would offend sahms though I used all those "I" statements.


Exactly. It's sort of like "Well . . . I was just expressing my own personal opinion" is a get out of jail free card. Sure, we all have opinions and feelings. Not all of those are "nice" and many of them are judgmental. But just own the judgment rather than implying that the person who is offended shouldn't be because, after all, it's just your opinion. I mean, if I said, "Well . .. it's just my opinion, but you're a lazy slob who is wasting your education and not actively contributing to society except by raising brats who have no manners" the person would (and should) be offended.

 

post #108 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post

 

 

I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare.  I do it." and it would offend sahms though I used all those "I" statements.



People do say it - on MDC - all the time.  They sometimes leave out qualifying words like "all" though.  

 

I do think people should word things carefully and think before they write - but when it comes down to it, I am more interested in hearing others opinions and what works for them, than worrying about whether or not I inadvertantly offend someone.

 

I should be able to say "I use a a stroller rather than a baby carrier" and not worry about offending the baby carriers.  I should be able to say "I think breast is best in general" without offending those who use formula.

 

It would be sad if MDC became so concerned with offending people and being perceived as being judgmental that we were afraid of expressing opinions in a respectful way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #109 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post





People do say it - on MDC - all the time.  They sometimes leave out qualifying words like "all" though.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


Like I said above, it all depends on what side of the fence you're on.  I, personally, don't see that from wohms nearly as much as they daycare crap I hear from sahms.  On MDC, working moms are by far in the minority. 

 

And you can blame my perception of what was said all you want.  No matter how you say it, any insinuation that a mother, because she chooses to work, isn't raising her own kids is insulting. 

post #110 of 289


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post




Like I said above, it all depends on what side of the fence you're on.  I, personally, don't see that from wohms nearly as much as they daycare crap I hear from sahms.  On MDC, working moms are by far in the minority. 

 

 


Heck,  I hear it from SAHM  (Quote:  I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare)   Women are hard on each other across the board.  

 

 

 

 

 

post #111 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


 


Heck,  I hear it from SAHM  (Quote:  I could say things like "I think all sahms should have clean houses and cook dinner from scratch every night and raise their own food and not be on welfare)   Women are hard on each other across the board.  

 

 

 

 

 


I have to agree with this.  On here at least, I have seen a bit of judgment (and if not judgment, competition) between SAHMs themselves regarding orderly houses, cooking from scratch, welfare, etc.  I only observe this because I think these boards tend to be SAHM-heavy and I can't help but notice it.  But again, is it because women in general are hard on each other, no matter what the situation?  I think so.  Is it some kind of evolutionary / survival of the fittest trait that we can't rid ourselves of?

 

Back to the issue of "raising my own kids":  after reading some of the responses here, I have to ask myself, what does 'raise' mean?  I have my own definition of what raising a child is, and of course it is not going to mesh with someone's definition, so therein I think is the problem.  The definition itself.  I take a more broad approach:  DH and I brought this child into the world, we're responsible for her safety, well-being and path to adulthood.  I'm utlimately responsible for her every move and flub-up, for her health and for her emotional and spiritual well-being while she is a minor.  I'm more than open to outside influences and the time she spends with others, but at the end of the day, DH and I are the ones who are responsible for and need to provide her with the love, security and wherewithal to become a confident, and hopefully happy, adult.  I mean, I think there is a certain fear attached to the definition of raising kids, and that by relinquishing some control over your child, you fear that you are not raising them.  Just my take on it.
 

 

post #112 of 289
Quote:

Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post


Back to the issue of "raising my own kids":  after reading some of the responses here, I have to ask myself, what does 'raise' mean?  I have my own definition of what raising a child is, and of course it is not going to mesh with someone's definition, so therein I think is the problem.  The definition itself.

 

There's definitely some truth to that.

 

I'm more than open to outside influences and the time she spends with others, but at the end of the day, DH and I are the ones who are responsible for and need to provide her with the love, security and wherewithal to become a confident, and hopefully happy, adult.  I mean, I think there is a certain fear attached to the definition of raising kids, and that by relinquishing some control over your child, you fear that you are not raising them.  Just my take on it.

 

Ugh. Just ugh. "Fear"? Why "fear"? I didn't "fear" that I wasn't raising ds1 when I was at work all day. I felt that I wasn't. I still feel that I wasn't. He spent more hours (if we don't count the time when both of us were asleep) in the care of other people than he did with me. Other people saw his first step, heard his first words, watched him figure out reading, did crafts with him, helped him navigate issues with his peers, etc. etc. By my definition of "raising" a child, I wasn't doing it, except on a very part-time basis. I've also heard the WOHD/SAHM dynamic described as "he works and she raises the kids" many times, in many places, so I don't think my definition of "raise" is the same as yours, yk?

 

And, yeah - I chose to SAH, now that I can do so, because I wanted to raise my own kids, as per my definition of "raise". That's the reality. I'm not going to call it something else, because someone else chooses to believe I'm talking about them when I say it. If your definition of "raise" is more big picture and broader in scope, then you're going to hear it differently than I meant it...but I'm not talking about you ("you" being whichever WOHM is getting bent about this at any given time). I'm talking about me. I don't get bent if a WOHM says she chose to WOH because she wanted to do something useful with her life (and yes, I've heard that many times, too), or whatever. That's them. I'm me. My choices are about me and my family, not about anybody else's family. I might refer to "dumping my child into daycare" - not because I think there's inherently anything wrong with daycare (I've seen some really wonderful ones), but because that's how I would feel about it if I had to put my own child in daycare...because I don't want to! It would be an unhappy choice for me. But, saying that I don't want to "dump my child into daycare" does not, in any way whatsoever, mean that I think all children in daycare have been "dumped" there.

 

 

I choose to bedshare for about a year (a little longer with dd2), then transition into a bed in our room for about another year (again, a little longer with dd2). That doesn't mean I think that's "better" than never bed-sharing, or having a family bed until a child is however-many-years old. This is what works for us.

 

I EBF for six months, unless the baby shows a strong desire for solid food before that (only one went all the way to 6, but two went to over 5.5), except with ds1, where I only went a little over four months. After that, I breastfeed to around age two, but dd2 will probably go longer than the others, except ds1 (again) where I weaned earlier. I don't do total child-led weaning, but I also try to breastfeed for two years. Again - that doesn't mean I think it's horrible to wean at a year, or to do child-led weaning and stop at age five. This is what works for us.

 

I wore ds1 (no slings or wraps or Ergos, but I had a lovely soft Snugli that he and I both enjoyed, and then a frame backpack that kept him up close) until he was...2.5? Maybe 3? I wore dd1 rarely after about six months, as she didn't like it much. I wore ds2 constantly for well over a year. I haven't worn dd2 more than a handful of times in the last year and a bit. Personally, I choose to wear my kids as long and as much as they like. But, that doesn't mean I think that's "better" than someone who babywears until their child is too heavy for every available carrier, or someone who uses a stroller from infancy. This is what works for us.

 

I had an unwanted c-section, after I verbally refused consent with ds1. I fully intended to VBAC and then VBA2C, but caved on the next two. My attempted HBA3C ended up with an emergency c-section and a stillborn son, for which I'll feel guilty for the rest of my life. I had a truly elective (maternal request), scheduled c-section with dd2...even though I didn't want it or think it was truly necessary, because it was the only realistic option for my family. That doesn't mean I think those choices are "better" than someone simply scheduling a repeat, because they feel the risks of VBAC are too high, or "better" than having a HBAC, or whatever. These choices were mine, and they didn't always work for me, but they were, at the time, the best choices for us.

 

I WOH when ds1 was a child, because I didn't want to live in subsidized housing - or on the streets. Welfare wouldn't have paid standard rent here, and my ex was a massive financial liability. I hated being away from ds1, and felt that I was missing out on too much of his life. I'm so, so grateful that dh makes enough money to support me being a SAHM now, with my other three. I, personally, felt a strong, strong need to be home with my kids, and involved in the little, daily details of childcare (that is "raising my own kids", to me). That doesn't mean I think I'm a "better" parent than a mom who needs to WOH (and when I say "needs", I don't just mean financially - I mean moms who feel the need to be financially independent, mentally challenged, work in a certain field...like a calling or vocation, maintain their skills in the job market....or even simply a need to not spend their entire days changing diapers, wiping snotty noses, fixing snacks, etc.), or a mom who was able to SAH all along (maybe by making more sacrifices than I was able or willing to make when ds1 was young). This is what works for us.

 

The judgmentalism sucks. It really does. And, I get being over-sensitive to comments people make. I can remember a few as a WOHM that made me want to hit someone. But, I also think we need to be careful not to project people's comments about their own parenting decisions onto ours. Someone can feel that being a SAHM would be mind-numbing and unproductive for themselves, without necessarily thinking that SAHMs, in general, are braindead (here!) and unproductive. Someone can feel that being a WOHM means losing out on too much of their own children's lives, without thinking that WOHMs are all neglectful, emotionally absent parents. I think the asinine Mommy Wars would lose a lot of fuel if we could avoid thinking that other people's decisions about their own families are a judgment on our own choices or circumstances.

 

post #113 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post

Of course I'm sensitive to it.  There's only so many times you can be blasted for working and not raising your own kids before you do get sensitive to it.



i often wonder why WOHM means "not raising your own kids." doesn't it just mean "raising your kids in a system you choose?" working moms have to choose exactly what kind of child care they want, they have to set rules and boundaries ensuring the best care for their kids, they have to enforce them, and they have to be flexible and change things around whenever needed.

 

i'm stuck at home by disabilities but i still enlist the help of other people, not all of them mothers. i'm just really happy my daughter gets along so well with so many people. if i ever get a chance to part-time WOH and it pays enough over the child care costs, you better believe i am going to jump at it! i know myself, my self-esteem is not 100% tied up in my parenting skills, i want and need to achieve many other things in my life, i also feel a deep need to lead by example and teach my daughter a good work ethic. i absolutely loved going to work with my mom when she waitressed for a while. we didn't need the money, she just felt like working. i was so proud watching her! very happy memories, munching a PB&J and watching her move around with a loaded tray yet she was so graceful! i was just as proud when she worked doing insurance transcription when i was a teen, everyone in her office knew me and i adored making them stuff to decorate their work stations. the best part was that my mom always included me in her life as much as she could. she also included me in all her volunteer work from an early age, i learned a ton of skills i never would have learned in school. so many thanks to my mom! luxlove.gif

 

i took that experience with me, and when i was raising my 3 step-kids, i was the editor of a fairly large newspaper and i worked it out so they spent the last 30 minutes of every day with me at the office. 2 were in school and after-school care, one was in preschool. i'd go pick them up and bring them into the office with me. they got to meet so many interesting people, to see people concentrating on things, doing tasks, the way things were organized. it really helped them at home! i was also able to mix in some education as well by "assigning" them articles to make their own family newspaper. one of the best times of my life, looking back. they have SOs and kids and jobs now, and seem really happy.

 

that being said, if they were younger than 3 at the time i began parenting them, i would have had to work out a completely different style of working and parenting. i think i would have worked at the motel next to our apartment complex, cleaning rooms, so they could come with me and help out if they wanted. i never cared where i worked, the point is to do good work and find happiness in it! again, major thanks to my mom. i really worry how my daughter is going to learn to work when she grows up, so i make sure to engage people who are at work, get to know them, let her ask questions, etc. i'm trying desperately to finish a book, she watches me working, makes suggestions, i've shown her how hard it's going to be to get published, how i might have to publish it myself as an e-book, how would we get the word out about the book, etc. she's already thinking up all sorts of ideas! and she's working on a book of her own, grins.

 

if i worked i would have to change my parenting style , but it would still be my parenting style, just as carefully thought out and agonized over as my SAHM style. thank goodness i have MDC and many other sources to learn what i need to know to make informed decisions!

 

like i said before, MDC has this huge number of mamas who are intensely invested in their unique parenting skills, and i don't see the "wars" as a bad thing at all. (although individuals do get their feelings hurt and apologies are always nice.) i see it as more and more information getting out there for women to make more informed choices, and surely one of the benefits is all the kids involved are being intensely loved and cared for. i agonized just as hard over which formula i had to choose for my 12-hour pump-n-dump from medication that affected my girl (until i "doubled my production" *that still cracks me up!*) as i agonized over learning how to breastfeed comfortably, safely and effectively.

 

i just can't see the warriors logging off and not caring about their kids, you know?


Edited by mandalamama - 7/1/11 at 3:00pm
post #114 of 289

I think that for me, the defensive/war-like attitude started out as a means of reassuring myself that I really could mother my child the way my heart told me to, and that no one else had the least bit of a right to pull the rug out from under my baby and me and force me to formula feed, go to work, put her in a crib, etcetera.

 

I still recall my best friend (who at that time had no kids) telling me while I was pregnant with dd1 that she really hoped that I'd be able to breastfeed like I wanted to, but it doesn't always work out for everyone...so I burrowed myself into the LLL book and told myself that it works out for all but a tiny fraction of a percent of the women who really want it "bad enough." This didn't start out as an attack on women who said they weren't able to breastfeed, it really just started out as a way to reassure myself that I could mother the way that I wanted to, in a world where it did indeed seem true that, as my friend said, so many of the women who want to breastfeed, or want natural child birth, or want to stay home with their children, just have the rug jerked out from under them and have to go with the mainstream flow...

 

The best way to stop the wars is to reach the place of feeling safe within ourselves. Our security doesn't come from having the perfect circumstances, but from being plugged into the Love that is the energy flowing through all of us and the whole universe. I do need to earn an income now, and my children and I are still attached. Although I was able to breastfeed my children until they weaned themselves, I'm sure we would have found a way to stay plugged into Love even if that particular rug had been pulled out from under us.

 

Let's just settle down into ourselves and find security (I mean, those who haven't already...I realize that some of you probably have, but of course it's a continual process). And then we'll be able to talk about all this stuff without attacking one another.

 

 

post #115 of 289

StormBride:   when I refer to fear about not raising your own kids, my experience and observations come from right here on MDC, where moms on the WOM forums fear that they are doing their kids a disservice in not being with their children 24/7.  I personally don't feel that fear, but I see it over and over again in comments and sometimes IRL and on other forums.  Some people feel guilty for working, and one of the elements of that guilt is that they are not raising their children according to accepted practices, whatever that may be.  They feel conflicted about their choices, rather real or perceived.  They enjoy their OHW and are validated by it, or they need to work and have no other choice.  Some people accept those conditions and are happy with them.  But, just because some people feel confident that they are raising or not raising their children, doesn't mean that there are people out there who have incredible doubts and are seeking validation for their choices.  People are bombarded with concepts of what is 'right' so it it is not a stretch that they have fear about if what they are doing is good or right.  Some of us may not feel it, but it doesn't mean that it isn't a real issue for others out there.  

 

We can personalize the issues as much as we want and provide all the subjective experiences that we want here, but there is a cultural acceptance, at least in the U.S., that if you work you are not raising your children.  I hear it over and over and over again.  A particular comment that was made on the NY Times parenting blog yesterday was:  "If you don't want to stay home and raise your children, why have them?"  That comment got a lot of thumbs-up.  I think there is an underlying religious bias in the U.S. that mothers have a duty to devout their whole selves to the raising of children, and anything beyond that is suspect.  Now maybe that is a minority view, but the minority view seems to get a lot of press here.  Unfortunately this is the fodder of talk show hosts and politicians seeking to solidify their base. It makes it hard for the rest of us who make other choices or who are forced to take other routes.  Despite our random personal feelings about certain issues, I think there is still a large portion of the population who have real doubts and fears, otherwise this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. It rubs off on WOMs who buy into the idea that because they work, they are not raising their kids and therefore are not doing the best they can.  They fear that their kids will suffer as a result.   

 

Sorry, I kept editing this post but kept getting off the computer.  winky.gif


Edited by CatsCradle - 7/1/11 at 7:18pm
post #116 of 289

Yes, I definitely feel also that there is a general tenor on MDC that suggests SAHMing is the ideal and WOHMs fall short.  Even a lot of the WOHMs on the board seem to buy into it.  There's a general acceptance of statements suggesting that any amount of care by others-than-mom is necessarily suboptimal.

 

I honestly just don't feel this is true.  I actually think it is really good for my kid to experience a range of loving caregivers.  Yes, it is true that others (first my awesome MIL and now an awesome Montessori program) are helping me to raise my child.  That is totally fine with me.  My MIL is a baby whisperer - she is much more experienced, patient, and attuned than I am - and I love that my DD had an opportunity to develop a close and loving relationship with her.  The Montessori has taught her things that I would never have thought to teach her, or known how.  She would have been a total wild-child if it had been just her and me 24/7.  Montessori taught her to say please and thank you, be patient, negotiate politely with others for things that she needs, etc.  She comes home with exciting things to tell me about her day and her friends and teachers.  Even if I did not work, my ideal for her would still be for her to attend the Montessori - maybe more like 4 hours per day rather than the 6-7 she does now, but those extra 2-3 hours are a pretty minimal concession that allow me to draw a FT salary and benefits.  I certainly do not think she would be best off home alone with me all day.  She'd be bored out of her mind.

 

I feel this way about homeschooling also.  I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people view homeschooling as an ideal and public schooling as an inferior option.  I think it would be insulting to teachers who have made education their life's mission to suggest that I could do their job as well as they can.  Additionally, there is socialization to the culture to consider.  We live in a culture where the norm is for people to work and attend school outside the home, and I want her to be comfortable with that norm.  

 

I feel the Continuum Concept stuff has a lot of value but the fact is that we don't live in this 'ideal' culture where a tight community supports group childrearing.  We just don't, and I don't feel that mom-alone-with-kid(s)-all-day approximates that ideal at all.  I do feel that, given the constraints of modern Western society, some level of daily exposure to a stable group setting is better for my child than being alone with mom 24/7.

post #117 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by t2009 View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

Daycare is fine for many, many families. I even considered it before I met my DD. She's shy and most content in a small group. That's hard to come by daycare-wise where I live. Yes never say never, I get that, totally but, the funny thing is: daycare is very expensive (where I live), it's a huge industry. It's cheaper to live poor then to work part time and put DD in daycare! Crazy right? My entire salary would go toward care and I'd end up going to work for almost free! So that's another reason. Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change! wink1.gif

But... C'est la vie. wink1.gif

Another thing not changing... snide remarks putting down mothers who WOH & put their children in a childcare situation.

Wow... I'm sorry but have you totally ignored the purpose of this thread & the recent posts?! This is exactly the sort of judgment-filled commentary that feeds the mommy wars.

It's wonderful that you've listened to & responded to your child's personality & needs. And that you've figured out what makes you happy & works for your family. But why is it so difficult to embrace & support other decisions, other approaches?

Guess what? I also had a child to be a mother (whatever that means...). And guess what? I'm raising him "myself" (again... whatever that means...) even though he's been in the care of some wonderful women other than myself (not to mention his father!).

Like Hildare put it (so well) it's really not about my choices or your choices, it's about supporting women to be the best moms they can be. And being a good, even great, mom can happen in all sorts of wonderful, different ways.

Snarkiness aside & in all seriousness, what kind of conversation is needed to get through to moms like yourself who seem to not be able to help putting others down? Do you see how damaging a comment like that is?


Here we go again. I didn't tear down anyone with my posts. I didn't make snide comments, I stated reasons why what I do works for me. This forum is so chalk full of mean girls who grew up, I almost want to delete my very new account or simply stay away from threads like this. I am trying to commiserate with the OP because I relate to her circumstances. Oui vey.
post #118 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by mambera View Post

I feel this way about homeschooling also.  I'm actually kind of surprised that so many people view homeschooling as an ideal and public schooling as an inferior option.  I think it would be insulting to teachers who have made education their life's mission to suggest that I could do their job as well as they can.  Additionally, there is socialization to the culture to consider.  We live in a culture where the norm is for people to work and attend school outside the home, and I want her to be comfortable with that norm.  


Well I hold a California Teaching Credential so I'm pretty sure I can do the job as well as the other people who went through the same program as me. ;)

 

I'm only three years into this parenting journey but I find that a lot of my positions have radically changed.  I have spent a lot of money and effort trying to woo my second child into drinking formula because I loathe nursing with the fire of a thousand suns.  But I nursed my older daughter till she was three and tandem nursed through a pregnancy.  In retrospect that was a very bad decision for me.  But I bought into guilt that I would harm my kids if I weaned prematurely. eyesroll.gif  I kind of feel like I am doing a lot more damage to all of us by having to sit here gritting my teeth (I've cracked two so far and my dentist is very upset with me) because I hate nursing so much I want to be violent.  But Breast Is Best!  Why don't I care about my babies enough to LOVE NURSING?!?!  Real life is more complicated than just whether or not breast milk is "better" than formula.  From a physiological standpoint it is healthier.  Is it really better that when my daughter wants to snuggle me I grit my teeth and wince and try to pull away from her because I'm afraid she will want to nurse again?  Really?

 

My personal favorite is when people say that people get upset because they aren't secure in their decisions.  If they were really secure they wouldn't care about the judgment.  I wish that were true.  I'm nursing and I @#$@#$#@ hate it.  I'm not secure in this decision.  I wish she would drink formula.  Yet I know it is the healthiest food choice.  So?

 

And oh man stay at home moms are harsh on other stay at home moms.  I'm a stay at home mom.  I'm moving my best friend in because I just can't do this 100% of the time child raising thing.  I am literally suicidal.  But I wouldn't be able to be a better mom if I had a job and sent them to daycare.  I would be a much worse mother.  It's interesting how sometimes parenting feels like just trying to get through every nightmarish day.  I truly didn't understand that it would be this hard.  And I am so privileged it isn't funny.  I can't participate in the Mommy Wars because if someone gets through the day without her kids being abused in any way, everyone has enough* to eat (I'm not going to quibble about what), and the mom can kiss her kids on the heads and say "I love you" with sincerity... that's a good mom.  

 

 

*There are some mothers living in poverty who are not able to feed their children adequately for a wide variety of reasons.  For all of them, I wish we had a better safety net.  I don't know many mothers with hungry children who are happy about it.  If you are struggling as hard as possible and your kids still know hunger, send me a PM.  I will mail you giftcards for grocery stores.  I am absolutely serious.  If your village has failed you I want to help.

post #119 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post



Here we go again. I didn't tear down anyone with my posts. I didn't make snide comments, I stated reasons why what I do works for me. This forum is so chalk full of mean girls who grew up, I almost want to delete my very new account or simply stay away from threads like this. I am trying to commiserate with the OP because I relate to her circumstances. Oui vey.

 

Here's the deal.   The phrase "Raising my own children" is often thrown at working mothers by SAHMs -- who are often in those very same "Mean girls who grew up" cliques.   And you usually hear it with a little more venom, as in "Daycare?  *I* could never do THAT.   WHY did you even have CHILDREN if you didn't want to raise them YOURSELF?"   

 

I was once told I couldn't join a local moms group.  Because I worked part time.   Because I could make friends at work and besides, *they* were a child-focused group and felt working moms were insufficiently child-focused.  THAT is "Mean Girls who Grew Up."
 

 

post #120 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post



Here we go again. I didn't tear down anyone with my posts. I didn't make snide comments, I stated reasons why what I do works for me. This forum is so chalk full of mean girls who grew up, I almost want to delete my very new account or simply stay away from threads like this. I am trying to commiserate with the OP because I relate to her circumstances. Oui vey.


fwiw - MDC, for a very long time, had fairly strict moderation.  I think a lot of people got their feelings hurt over legitimate slights, but were afraid to say anything for fear of getting warnings, etc.

 

The moderation has lessened in the last 6 weeks or so - so a lot of people are working out issues at the moment (like more mainstream ideas being judged).  I think MDC is in a bit of a transition period and we will see what the vibe is like in a little bit.  It is good people are now able to express thing they felt they could not before.  

 

 

 

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