War between the Mom's - Page 2

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

 

Originally Posted by sewchris2642 

Unless your child is the "one in x" that the statistics talk about, it really doesn't matter in the long run, barring outright abuse/abject poverty, what parenting decisions parents decide on for their children.  And that is a very humbling thought.  (General) we want to believe that the decisions and sacrifices we make for our children will result in superior adults.  And it isn't necessarily so.  There have been successful adults who come from horrendous abuse/abject poverty, raised by nannies,etc. and the reverse is also true.  The 'mommy wars" will end when we all realize that we all are collectively doing the best we can with the resources and children we have.  And remember that expert advices changes as well as laws over the years as more information is discovered and old information is modified.

Im sorry, but I just dont believe that. There are A LOT of parents who are not doing the best they can. My mother was one of them. I remember several times when people at the grocery store or in other public places would tell my mom things like "dont pull her up by the arm like that" or "hey, dont smack her, she is just a baby" or "you know if you let your kids drink coke out of a bottle their teeth will rot out" or "gosh, you all are at McDonald's everytime Im here, do you ever eat at home?" along with many other remarks that embarrassed me and my four siblings. She always bitched the whole way home "Why do they think they have the right to tell me how to parent my kids? What the f---, mind your own business" and other nice things...

My brother and sister both have rotten teeth and have since they were little, and its because she fed them sugar and didnt force them to brush, not because they have "bad teeth".
My mother hit all of us all the time, including when we were as young as 6 months old.
My brother did have his shoulder pulled out of socket as a result of her yanking him up by the arm
We DID eat fast food every night and all of us struggle with weight

But god forbid you try to tell her anything, especially that breastmilk is better for a baby than formula. Because she will let you know that she's "got better things to do than sit around with a baby stuck to her tit all day long."

and she wasnt on drugs, she wasnt an alcoholic, she was married with 5 kids and came from an upper middle class background. She thought she knew it all, and she was a horrible parent. To this day, she cant take advice or criticism about her parenting styles.


I just dont believe everyone is doing the "best they can." There are a lot of people who put their own wants and needs above that of their children.

Okay, I think there is a huge difference between people who don't care (their needs above the child's needs when it comes to breastfeeding; basic child care; exhibit basic uninformed practices...and I mean uninformed) and people who either are forced to practice certain things (i.e. there was a point where I had to supplement because of low supply, etc.).  I'm not trying to do any one-upmanship here but my bio mom (who was married to my father) took off with another man when I was two, leaving my dad to raise me until he married my stepmom.  I wouldn't know her (bio-mom) from Adam if she were walking down the street but to this day I ask myself:  "How could a mom leave her two-year-old for a man?"  What matters to me in the end is not whether she breastfed me or held me close.  What matters to me is that her position as MOM didn't matter.  She opted to abandon us because she loved someone else more.  I guess the point with me being is that we place a lot of focus on practices when ultimately (and speaking only for myself) a child wants to be wanted and loved and respected.  I grew up knowing that I was not wanted by my own mother.  It had nothing to do with breastfeeding and babywearing, but with the idea that me, as a person, wasn't worth sticking around for.  It has shaped my parenting in a positive way.  I try to be careful about labeling people as bad parents.  My own parents (stepmom and dad) practiced corporal punishment because they thought it was the right thing to do.  I don't doubt that they love me, but I don't agree with their methods and to this day I have certain resentments against them for the physical abuse that they bestowed upon us (mostly out of anger).  That being said, I don't think they were evil, just misinformed.  

All you have to do is go on any mainstream  parenting forum and people acknowledge that corporal punishment is good.  The perspective needs to be changed, but not by telling people they are bad.  That only leads to defensiveness.  We need to change the perception that kids can be 'good' without physical punishment.  There are bad parents who don't love their children and cause them much pain.  I'm not sure what we can do with regard to them.  There are parents who love their children and cause them pain.  I think for those parents, we can educate by example.  Why? Because ultimately their hearts are in the right place, but they haven't found the proper tools.  

I was born out of a generation of parents who really didn't have good information available to them.  They did things because they believed advertisements and the medical establishment (I respect medicine but I also think that medical students are taught to err on the side of caution and doctors are sometimes influenced by big pharma).  I also recognize that I was born in  a generation where people were expected to have kids, and the problem was two-fold:  people had kids whether or not they wanted them, which opened up the possibility that in some cases kids were unwanted, but expected; and people were unequipped to deal with kids (whether the wanted them or not) which led to the practices that we find find uncomfortable or abhorrent.  I think there are very few "bad" people out there.  I do think there are a lot of people who are ill-equipped and misinformed.  Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I think that will change.  

Edited by CatsCradle - 6/25/11 at 4:05pm

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by CatsCradle 

Okay, I think there is a huge difference between people who don't care (their needs above the child's needs when it comes to breastfeeding; basic child care) and people who either are forced to practice certain things (i.e. there was a point where I had to supplement because of low supply, etc.).  I mean, I'm not trying to do any one-upmanship here but my bio mom (who was married to my father) took off with another man when I was two, leaving my dad to raise me until he married my stepmom.  I wouldn't know her (bio-mom) from Adam if she were walking down the street but to this day I ask myself:  "How could a mom leave her two-year-old for a man?"  What matters to me in the end is not whether she breastfed me or held me close.  What matters to me is that her position as MOM didn't matter.  She opted to abandon us because she loved someone else more.  I guess the point with me being is that we place a lot of focus on practices when ultimately (and speaking only for myself) a child wants to be wanted and loved and respected.  I grew up knowing that I was not wanted by my own mother.  It had nothing to do with breastfeeding and babywearing, but with the idea that me, as a person, wasn't worth sticking around for.  It has shaped my parenting in a positive way.  I try to be careful about labeling people as bad parents.  My own parents (stepmom and dad) practiced corporal punishment because they thought it was the right thing to do.  I don't doubt that they love me, but I don't agree with their methods and to this day I have certain resentments against them for the physical abuse that they bestowed upon us (mostly out of anger).  That being said, I don't think they were evil, just misinformed.  

All you have to do is go on any mainstream  parenting forum and people acknowledge that corporal punishment is good.  The perspective needs to be changed, but not by telling people they are bad.  That only leads to defensiveness.  We need to change the perception that kids can be 'good' without physical punishment.  There are bad parents who don't love their children and cause them much pain.  I'm not sure what we can do with regard to them.  There are parents who love their children and cause them pain.  I think for those parents, we can educate by example.  Why? Because ultimately their hearts are in the right place, but they haven't found the proper tools.  

The bolded is exactly what I mean. There are plenty of people to ACTUALLY disagree with, why do we waste our time arguing between ourselves. I think there is a huge difference between a mom who wants to bf and cant and a mom who just doesnt care. My mom had plenty of education about it, she njust couldnt be bothered. The OP wanted to kow why we bother fighting about parenting differences, and I was just trying to point out that she is right. Its stupid that we fight amongst ourselves when we mostly agree on things. There are people who parent in real ways that we disagree with, and it makes our arguments about small issues seem even smaller. I think we actually agree.

[Brandybutter]

The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.

Most of my friends are mainstream parents who use disposables, weaned before 1yr, have sleep trained their kids and basically have a parent-centered style. They know what I'm doing (the complete opposite!), but for some reason they choose to do what is popular advice from their Drs, hospital mom groups, or books. I do sense that these parents are not very confident and I do see developmental differences in our children. Again, this makes me feel like I'm on the right track and I would never dream of pointing these out. Yes, I guess I do feel some of my choices are better for children in general. Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc. I bite my tongue a lot.

My friendships are dear, and I'm finding that maintaining them with these differences is building tolerance, compassion, and making me a better role model for my son. These friends are likely doing the same with me! We all have our individual karma, parents and children. I will be an advocate for any child that I feel is abused or neglected, but that is where I draw the line.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by petey44 

For example, I don't know if the poster actually meant it like this, but a few posts above someone mentioned the neighbor who works outside the home, only sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and uses that time to tell her kids how everything they do is wrong.  Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that. 

I didn't read that in her post at all. I think that's a big jump from her saying that one wohm is like that, to interpreting it as her saying that all wohm are like that.

[Alenushka]

breast is the best...in majority of cases

Formula is the best if mom has not milk, if mom has HIV or other transmissible infection, if mom is on meds that can harm the baby, if mom has mental illness that is made worse by nursing, if mom can't earn money if pumping is not possible at work, if baby is allergic to breast milk , if baby has some metabolic disorder.
 

Originally Posted by habitat 

I just want to say that I was formula-fed and well-loved by a wonderful mother. I resent having her called an abusive parent. I have no illnesses, no deficiencies and I always tested well at school (not that that means anything at all), thankyouverymuch. What WHO says is probably true about correlation, but formula fed babies are, in general, also from a completely different background than many babies who are breastfed, which I strongly believe has a lot to do with the "lasting effects" statistics, more than the formula itself.

Do I believe that breastfeeding is best? Yes, absolutely, 100%. Would I ever recommend formula over the breast? Absolutely not.

But I do believe that when we start calling formula abusive *shudder*, then we're calling a lot of mothers from different class/cultural/life experiences abusive mothers. And that is a scary and dangerous line and says a lot about classism and racism and privilege, honestly. And I can't swallow that.

[Alenushka]

What you elighten me on what developmental differences you see?

My older son is 15 now, I observe his friends and I can;t tell who was FF, who was BF, who was cloth diapers and who was not, whose mom had epidural and who was born in the pool, who was in daycare and who was not.

I can tell you whoss parents are educated middle class and whose are poor.  Thats about it.
 

Originally Posted by Brandybutter 

The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.

Most of my friends are mainstream parents who use disposables, weaned before 1yr, have sleep trained their kids and basically have a parent-centered style. They know what I'm doing (the complete opposite!), but for some reason they choose to do what is popular advice from their Drs, hospital mom groups, or books. I do sense that these parents are not very confident and I do see developmental differences in our children. Again, this makes me feel like I'm on the right track and I would never dream of pointing these out. Yes, I guess I do feel some of my choices are better for children in general. Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc. I bite my tongue a lot.

My friendships are dear, and I'm finding that maintaining them with these differences is building tolerance, compassion, and making me a better role model for my son. These friends are likely doing the same with me! We all have our individual karma, parents and children. I will be an advocate for any child that I feel is abused or neglected, but that is where I draw the line.

[DevaMajka]

I was under the impression that it was virtually impossible for a baby to be allergic to breastmilk. It's very possible to be allergic to something that mom is eating that passes into breastmilk, though that can be removed from mom's diet. All in all, I agree with what you are saying. I'm really "laidback" on the bf vs ff issue. I don't think it's cool to tell any woman what she "should" do with her body. Education is super important, though.

Also as far as the middle class vs. poor, that seems a little classist. I have friends who are poor (and me- I have been on foodstamps, and we have definitely been poor since having kids), and they are fantastic parents, and I don't think you'd be able to see a difference in their kids compared to others who are more middle class. I don't think you'd see a difference in my son compared to his classmates, and we are probably on the bottom (income wise) in this upper class neighborhood. People can be poor/broke and not be stereotypically poor.

eta- I also don't understand how people think that saying, eg, "xyz activity is wrong" is saying "any parent who does xyz activity is a bad horrible parent." I have friends who spank, and it's never occurred to me to think they were bad parents. They are doing something that I consider wrong, sure. They happen to be great parents, who have fun with and care deeply for their kids. Me thinking that spanking is wrong doesn't change that they are good parents (even Imo), and that they are good parents doesn't change that I think that spanking is wrong.

Otoh, I have had a person say that they were worried about my child's wellbeing because I was gd'ing and not cio. I did take that as judgement on me as a parent vs. judgement about the specific things I was doing. She said she was worried about his wellbeing for crying out loud! If she had said that in her opinion, co-sleeping is harmful, I would not take that to mean that she thought I was a bad parent, just that she disagreed with that specific thing I was doing.

[motherhendoula]

I think the 'wars' got started because we are often put in the position of defending our choices to others.  What did the world at large say to the women in the 60's  who wanted to continue working outside the home ...even after they were married!    - those women had to defend their choices - and most likely did so well at it they convinced more women that it was a good thing to keep working outside the home after marriage -   women with children were rarely hired for work in the 70's - but by the 80's it was status quo.  By the mid 80's newspapers, magazines, talk shows abounded with articles and 'experts' telling us that day care was good for our children - it would make them strong and independent.....  by the 90's it was simply assumed Mom was going back to work as most couples need two incomes to pay their mortgage, two cars, retirement fund, college fund, student loan and credit card debts.  

  I really dont think there is a war going on here at all - we all know someone on a personal level who does things differently than we do - yet we still like them and respect them as a mother.  The 'War'  was created on TV, it was created to sell magazines,  to sell air time, to sell books by experts. 

[rubidoux]

I think I feel most defensive and bothered when I am worried that what I'm doing may not be the best.  For example, I'm not sure about how I want my children fed.  I don't think doctors or other health professionals have a very good grasp on what is a healthy diet for humans and I have, by a ton of painful trial and error, found what works for me  --  which no doctor in his right mind would agree with (I eat exactly 2.25 g of carbohydrate a day, I eat only once a day, normally, and I eat NO vegetables).  Of course all my friends are freaking vegans.  lol  I don't feed my children the same way I feed myself, but they sure as hell aren't vegan!  I almost always get defensive feeling when people talk about how best to feed themselves or their children  --  because I'm worried that I haven't hit on the right answer for my own kids.

There are other areas that I can see a lot of other people are very sensitive where I'm not at all.  And I think that must be because I am very happy and confident about how I've handled those things.  I had a c-section after induction the first time around and a scheduled c-section the second time.  First off, when I look back at my births, especially the first, they were just dreamy wonderful for me.  If I were terribly anti-c-section, I'm sure I would feel wounded, etc, but the truth of the matter is that I feel really freaking lucky to have birthed a child any-old-way (I'm a type I diabetic and believed for years I couldn't have children).  And I know that, the first time around, I did everything in my power to push my little one out the old fashioned way, and I'm quite proud of how well I did.  The fact that he came out by c-section on the end is pretty inconsequential to me.  I don't feel one iota bad about myself for not having him vaginally, and I can't even fathom why someone would feel that way.  (I do understand and agree that vaginally would be a great way to go, just not sure why I'd feel bad about myself for it not happening.)

So, in a way, I think it may be good for us to read those posts/threads that most upset us.  Those are probably the areas we need help in  --  not across the board, I'm sure, but for the most part.

[McGucks]

This is an interesting thread.  One quick point that DH and I have come across is this:  our neighbors parent differently than we in more ways than I could count.  And we think they are great parents and a great family.  Their children are healthy and happy.  Our child is healthy and happy.  Over the years, DH has helped me to be much less judgmental of others, which, in the end, has helped me be more accepting of myself.

In this MDC community, we are quick to get pissed at people who challenge our beliefs and practices, right?  So why are we inclined to judge other's actions?  Because it's human nature, and we have to catch ourselves when we get stuck in judgments.  Yes, there are some "rights" and "wrongs," but much of parenting is personal preference, habit, and innate instinct.

And why are there Mommy Wars?  Because we want to reassure ourselves that we are doing the best we can for our children.  Many women are very insecure, I think, and this adds fuel to the fire.  DH and I are very similar in our AP-ish parenting approaches, but it's outside of his radar to look at another dad in the same way I'd look at another mom.  I think it's a gender-based war, kind of.  Or something like that.  Or not.  But I'm being indecisive.  Or maybe not.

[t2009]

Originally Posted by Brandybutter 

The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.

Most of my friends are mainstream parents who use disposables, weaned before 1yr, have sleep trained their kids and basically have a parent-centered style. They know what I'm doing (the complete opposite!), but for some reason they choose to do what is popular advice from their Drs, hospital mom groups, or books. I do sense that these parents are not very confident and I do see developmental differences in our children. Again, this makes me feel like I'm on the right track and I would never dream of pointing these out. Yes, I guess I do feel some of my choices are better for children in general. Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc. I bite my tongue a lot.

My friendships are dear, and I'm finding that maintaining them with these differences is building tolerance, compassion, and making me a better role model for my son. These friends are likely doing the same with me! We all have our individual karma, parents and children. I will be an advocate for any child that I feel is abused or neglected, but that is where I draw the line.

Bolded above is what I've also encountered... People basically following bad advice because they don't have any other sources of information. This is why I don't judge other parents, but I DO judge the institutions that push CIO, formula, subpar childcare, etc. on families. There is this machine of bad advice & bad policy going around & it becomes a cycle because those who follow the bad advice become entrenched & resistant to other options/approaches.

That said, being a little judgmental can actually be healthy if it helps you to reevaluate the choices you're making. Call it constructive judgment, maybe? But that's definitely not what the "mommy wars" are about... definitely that's unproductive.  

Otherwise, I simply can't judge my friends who choose not to breastfeed or give up on it early... I just don't know what their experiences have been. Maybe they got bad advice? A bad pediatrician? No access to a LC? Sometimes we talk about these things, but always in a gentle way. When I feel I can't talk without judging (as in when CIO comes up in the conversation), I just politely walk away -- I can't see the use in making my friends feel bad about decisions they've made long ago but I also know that I'm just human & not capable of putting on a smile & reassuring them they've done the right thing. If they really want to talk about approaches to sleep in an open way, then I engage.

[Alenushka]

NO one is pushing sub-par day care on anyone. This is truly classist. What is so difficult to understand? For many women neither there is not choice. some women would like to stay home but they can;t because the only way to afford rent, food and get health care is too work. Other women would like to work but stay home because daycare is so expensive.

Unless you marry well or come from a background that allowed you to have savings, there is not choice.

Reason we have sub par daycare is because moms spend times on stupid Mommy Wars instead of forming a lobby like an AARP and lobby for what women in many civlized countireshave, affordability and subsides daycare.

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

Originally Posted by CatsCradle 

Okay, I think there is a huge difference between people who don't care (their needs above the child's needs when it comes to breastfeeding; basic child care) and people who either are forced to practice certain things (i.e. there was a point where I had to supplement because of low supply, etc.).  I mean, I'm not trying to do any one-upmanship here but my bio mom (who was married to my father) took off with another man when I was two, leaving my dad to raise me until he married my stepmom.  I wouldn't know her (bio-mom) from Adam if she were walking down the street but to this day I ask myself:  "How could a mom leave her two-year-old for a man?"  What matters to me in the end is not whether she breastfed me or held me close.  What matters to me is that her position as MOM didn't matter.  She opted to abandon us because she loved someone else more.  I guess the point with me being is that we place a lot of focus on practices when ultimately (and speaking only for myself) a child wants to be wanted and loved and respected.  I grew up knowing that I was not wanted by my own mother.  It had nothing to do with breastfeeding and babywearing, but with the idea that me, as a person, wasn't worth sticking around for.  It has shaped my parenting in a positive way.  I try to be careful about labeling people as bad parents.  My own parents (stepmom and dad) practiced corporal punishment because they thought it was the right thing to do.  I don't doubt that they love me, but I don't agree with their methods and to this day I have certain resentments against them for the physical abuse that they bestowed upon us (mostly out of anger).  That being said, I don't think they were evil, just misinformed.  

All you have to do is go on any mainstream  parenting forum and people acknowledge that corporal punishment is good.  The perspective needs to be changed, but not by telling people they are bad.  That only leads to defensiveness.  We need to change the perception that kids can be 'good' without physical punishment.  There are bad parents who don't love their children and cause them much pain.  I'm not sure what we can do with regard to them.  There are parents who love their children and cause them pain.  I think for those parents, we can educate by example.  Why? Because ultimately their hearts are in the right place, but they haven't found the proper tools.  

The bolded is exactly what I mean. There are plenty of people to ACTUALLY disagree with, why do we waste our time arguing between ourselves. I think there is a huge difference between a mom who wants to bf and cant and a mom who just doesnt care. My mom had plenty of education about it, she njust couldnt be bothered. The OP wanted to kow why we bother fighting about parenting differences, and I was just trying to point out that she is right. Its stupid that we fight amongst ourselves when we mostly agree on things. There are people who parent in real ways that we disagree with, and it makes our arguments about small issues seem even smaller. I think we actually agree.

You're right, we actually do agree!  

I've read some of the subsequent posts and it reminds me that we are still caught up in practices which we think results in better children (i.e. AP stuff results in developmentally superior children; people who utilize daycare are not raising their children but people who don't will have awesome children).  I feel if we get past these misconceptions we can have relevant discussions about how to help parents be the best parents they can, despite their circumstances or choices.  Again, I'm not talking about stuff like corporal punishment, with which I think rises to a different level than the non-breastfed baby.  I think everyone needs to take a step back and start recognizing how you communicate what you do and why you do it (something I touched on in my first post).  It would go a long way in helping new parents come to the realization that maybe there is an alternative and perhaps beneficial way to do things.  You don't win people to your side by telling them that your child is superior because of it or that they are not raising their children.  JMHO.
 

[t2009]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

NO one is pushing sub-par day care on anyone. This is truly classist. What is so difficult to understand? For many women neither there is not choice. some women would like to stay home but they can;t because the only way to afford rent, food and get health care is too work. Other women would like to work but stay home because daycare is so expensive.

Unless you marry well or come from a background that allowed you to have savings, there is not choice.

Reason we have sub par daycare is because moms spend times on stupid Mommy Wars instead of forming a lobby like an AARP and lobby for what women in many civlized countireshave, affordability and subsides daycare.

I think you totally misunderstood me. Sub-par daycare is "pushed" on families in the sense that there's no other affordable choice for many, many families. Of course it's not a choice... that's my whole point. Yet families are judged all the time (part of the mommy wars) for sending their children to such places.

I think maybe the context of the other things I was listing made my post less clear: Yes, we have doctors & corporations literally pushing formula & we have "experts" & doctors literally pushing CIO. In a less literal (but no less real) sense, the government & many (most?) jobs "push" sub-par daycare by not offering enough subsidies, not offering adequate oversight, not offering enough options, not offering enough pay to employees, not offering adequate maternity leave, .... I could on & on. Anyway, that's what I was getting at.

If you still think that's classist, then so be it.

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

NO one is pushing sub-par day care on anyone. This is truly classist. What is so difficult to understand? For many women neither there is not choice. some women would like to stay home but they can;t because the only way to afford rent, food and get health care is too work. Other women would like to work but stay home because daycare is so expensive.

Unless you marry well or come from a background that allowed you to have savings, there is not choice.

Reason we have sub par daycare is because moms spend times on stupid Mommy Wars instead of forming a lobby like an AARP and lobby for what women in many civlized countireshave, affordability and subsides daycare.

This is simply not true. I didnt marry "well" (well, I did, he is a wonderful man, but not wealthy or even above poverty level) and I have NO savings. I SAH because its my priority. I'd rather be with my kid than making money. I dont want to teach my child that money is super important. We have chosen to live with less money than most people. We are very frugal. I dont buy brand new clothing often, I dont drive a new car, I dont really go out often, so we dont spend a whole lot of money.I'd rather spend my time gardening, making things from scratch , thrift store shopping, and figuring out ways to be thrifty than going to work for someone else while someone else is watching my kid. I want my life to belong to me 100%, not to my employer or my childcare provider. Yes, we live month to month right now.

I chose to be self employed and figure out other ways to make money so that I could stay home with my kid. I dont judge mom's who chose to go to work. I think there are a lot of people who have no choice, but saying that unless you marry well or were born with money you HAVE to put your kids in subpar childcare is ridiculous.

Please note, this is NOT a slam against WOHM's, this is why I do things the way that I do them and it has nothing to do with anyone else's choices about why they do things the way that they want. It is only MY opinion about why the bolded statement above is not true, and in my own opinon, classist. To me it says, "Unless you were rich or you got a man to take care of you, you have no choices in life." Well, I'm poor, was raised poor, and I am perfectly capable of figuring out ways to get by without my husband and without daycare. Although he does help, I could do the same thing without him. It makes me wonder what income bracket you are in to be running around saying what poor women can and cant do.

[Alenushka]

Whatever.  All those dicussions about Mommy Wars only lead to one thing, increase in blood pressure on my side.  As lsot as people are divided by stupid arguments over thing that are meangless in the long runs, politicians get to opress women in this country in every which way possibale

Edited by Alenushka - 6/26/11 at 6:30pm

[DevaMajka]

Wait, I thought we weren't judging parents based on specific decisions in this thread?

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Have you read the studies? Despite all the anecdotal evidence  such as, the cousing of my welfare cousin did so well etc, family income is the biggest predictor of how well child does in life. It is ridiculous to deny that money matters.

I shop at Godwill and I cook from scratch etc etc etc, and I work. And wihout my work there would be no braces, no therapy , no computer camps and many of those thing that made my children's life better.

>I am also digusted with people who choose to be on welfare to they can stay home. They CHOOSE it, I PAY for it with my taxes, and they they JUDGE me for working and sending my child to preshool.  Lovely.

poor you, poor you. You and your taxes. I bet you'd rather them be spent on our military "defense," huh?

I have food stamps, this is a rough time for us, I dont care for your "disgust". I have paid for it with MY taxes for the past ten years and my DH is still paying for it with his. Be disgusted with me all you want, you cant do a damn thing about it. In fact, I hope you get your ass handed to you by a whole bunch of "welfare moms" who are doing their best. I live 60 miles from the nearest city, making it a $20 round trip commute, plus $50 (for the cheap daycare) a day for childcare brings me to a grand total of $70 a day just to GO to work. Why would I spend $70 so that I could make (maybe?) $70 more? That is insane. And working for half of minimum wage. I work from home, I still qualify for food stamps and medicaid. Healthcare for me, DH, and DD would cost us over $500 a month. If you feel judged that is your own problem. No one has judged you for having a job, but you are sure throwing judgment around all over the place. Studies show a lot of things that I also dont believe in or agree with. I cant believe that earlier in this thread you were calling people classist.Seriously.

[DevaMajka]

Yes, I haven't seen any WOHM judgement in this thread. Personally, I think women should work if they want to, and wish women could sah if they wanted to. No one has to justify their decision to me. My only opinion on it is that it's sad when a mom (or dad) HAS to work if they'd prefer to stay home (or I suppose, if they have to stay home if they'd prefer to work, though that seems less likely).

For us, the system is different in Canada. We get a child tax benefit, which is not welfare, but is income based (people with incomes up to almost $100,000/year get some, but only $10/month). With that benefit, and other government benefits (again, not welfare but income based) that I would lose if I worked, plus having to pay for daycare, I would end up working full time and bringing home about $200-$300 per month. Sorry, not gonna happen, no matter how disgusted someone is with me.

"Disgust" is a strong word, with obviously negative connotations. Your statement is the most judgemental that I remember seeing in any of the recent crunchy/mainstream/"don't judge me for being different" threads.

Money might matter, but it's almost as if you were saying that it ALWAYS matters, and everything else never does. That makes very little logical sense.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Unless you marry well or come from a background that allowed you to have savings, there is not choice.

Seriously, this is just ridiculous.  

My husband and I waited until we were financially secure enough for me to be a stay-at-home parent before we even tried to conceive.  It wasn't our background that allowed us to save; it was our career opportunities and choices along the way that allowed for that.  I "married well" in that my husband makes a good salary.  We have not gotten, nor needed, assistance from our parents or anyone else.

I know many other SAHMs IRL who have similar stories, and I live in a very high cost of living area.