War between the Mom's - Page 3

[katelove]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

breast is the best...in majority of cases

Formula is the best if mom has not milk, if mom has HIV or other transmissible infection, if mom is on meds that can harm the baby, if mom has mental illness that is made worse by nursing, if mom can't earn money if pumping is not possible at work, if baby is allergic to breast milk , if baby has some metabolic disorder.
 

See I disagree with this. Formula may be *necessary* in the circumstances you describe but that still doesn't imbue it with the qualities of breastmilk. It doesn't fill it with antibodies and phagocites and the perfect balance of easily absorbed nutrients or get rid of the excess sugar and salt. It is an adequate substitute and the baby will most likely thrive but necessity doesn't change the composition.

[Alenushka]

I am not talking about people who are  having "rough time".   I am all for paying for it. Better than for bombs  I am talking about people who on purposely decide to go on welfare because they think that being a SAHM allows them to be a better parent.  Why should I pay for that? It is choice. 

There is not a shred of scientific evidence that shows that people raise by SAHM are any better than people raised by WAHMs

IN 1950, everyone was SAHMs and look at rampant substance abuse and unhappiness of the 1970.

As far as "My husband and I waited until we were financially secure enough for me to be a stay-at-home parent before we even tried to conceive.  It wasn't our background that allowed us to save; it was our career opportunities and choices along the way that allowed for that.  I "married well" in that my husband"

I do not know, maybe it is unknown fact, but pregnancy can happen without planning. Mother nature does not ask about size of one's bank account.

My points is, it is time to stop all of this and demand equal benefits for all. Mothers and fathers need parental leave which is paid and meaningfull. A year that can be split between partners. Universal health care that covers everyone.

Mommy Wars are product of ridiculous societal inequality and denail of one simple fact....money matters.  Things like paid parental leave, universal healthcare and high qulity availbale day care makes it a better life for all

[katelove]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

What you elighten me on what developmental differences you see?

My older son is 15 now, I observe his friends and I can;t tell who was FF, who was BF, who was cloth diapers and who was not, whose mom had epidural and who was born in the pool, who was in daycare and who was not.

I can tell you whoss parents are educated middle class and whose are poor.  Thats about it.
 

Many of my reasons for making the parenting choices I do are not going to be obvious to the casual observer in the playground. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of many diseases in childhood and adulthood (probably more than we're aware of now). CIO increases the risk of stress-related conditions in adulthood - hypertension, depression, anxiety. Attachment/CC parenting is supposed to make children more likely to be confident, adults who feel comfortable in their own skin. You're not going to see any of that on the playground.

NB. These are by no means the only reasons I choose to BF, not CIO etc. I'm just trying to make the point that "I can't tell the difference in the playground" is, IMO, a really poor reason for making choices.

[Alenushka]

Under the conditions I describe formula is not a "maybe" but a must because the alternative is nothing. Before formula was available babies were given raw com milk and died.

Why is so hard to compute that now everyone can breastfeed? I could, but it did not make me a better mother, it just means I was very very lucky.
 

Originally Posted by katelove 

See I disagree with this. Formula may be *necessary* in the circumstances you describe but that still doesn't imbue it with the qualities of breastmilk. It doesn't fill it with antibodies and phagocites and the perfect balance of easily absorbed nutrients or get rid of the excess sugar and salt. It is an adequate substitute and the baby will most likely thrive but necessity doesn't change the composition.

[Alenushka]

Links to studies please.  I want to see scientific confrimation that doing every single AP thing produces confident child.

ACE score studies show that being abuse physically, exposed to violence  in childhood etc has a negative impact on adulthood, but those are extreme things.
 

Originally Posted by katelove 

Many of my reasons for making the parenting choices I do are not going to be obvious to the casual observer in the playground. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of many diseases in childhood and adulthood (probably more than we're aware of now). CIO increases the risk of stress-related conditions in adulthood - hypertension, depression, anxiety. Attachment/CC parenting is supposed to make children more likely to be confident, adults who feel comfortable in their own skin. You're not going to see any of that on the playground.

NB. These are by no means the only reasons I choose to BF, not CIO etc. I'm just trying to make the point that "I can't tell the difference in the playground" is, IMO, a really poor reason for making choices.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

IN 1950, everyone was SAHMs and look at rampant substance abuse and unhappiness of the 1970.

????

I thought correlation did not equal causation?

[Drummer's Wife]

Haven't we done this before?

[MsFortune]

Originally Posted by petey44 

For example, I don't know if the poster actually meant it like this, but a few posts above someone mentioned the neighbor who works outside the home, only sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and uses that time to tell her kids how everything they do is wrong.  Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that.  Which is, of course, not true.  

[savithny]

Originally Posted by katelove 

Many of my reasons for making the parenting choices I do are not going to be obvious to the casual observer in the playground. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of many diseases in childhood and adulthood (probably more than we're aware of now). CIO increases the risk of stress-related conditions in adulthood - hypertension, depression, anxiety. Attachment/CC parenting is supposed to make children more likely to be confident, adults who feel comfortable in their own skin. You're not going to see any of that on the playground.

NB. These are by no means the only reasons I choose to BF, not CIO etc. I'm just trying to make the point that "I can't tell the difference in the playground" is, IMO, a really poor reason for making choices.

The "Attachment" literature is referring to attachment styles, and there's actually little to no evidence that "AP" as it is sold by advocates produces higher rates of "securely attached" babies and children.  Across cultures and parenting styles, rates of attachment vs. avoidance are surprisingly stable.  It's not just that you cannot tell who was breastfed and who was carried in a sling once they're all running around the playground, its that as long as there is love and responsiveness, you can't suddenly magically tell who was breastfed and who wasn't around the water cooler at work (or in the back of the tractor, or in the bus, or wherever you might be with a group of adults).

Also, this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/how-to-land-your-kid-in-therapy/8555/

Modern social science backs her up on this. “Happiness as a byproduct of living your life is a great thing,” Barry Schwartz, a professor of social theory at Swarthmore College, told me. “But happiness as a goal is a recipe for disaster.” It’s precisely this goal, though, that many modern parents focus on obsessively—only to see it backfire. Observing this phenomenon, my colleagues and I began to wonder: Could it be that by protecting our kids from unhappiness as children, we’re depriving them of happiness as adults?

Paul Bohn, a psychiatrist at UCLA who came to speak at my clinic, says the answer may be yes. Based on what he sees in his practice, Bohn believes many parents will do anything to avoid having their kids experience even mild discomfort, anxiety, or disappointment—“anything less than pleasant,” as he puts it—with the result that when, as adults, they experience the normal frustrations of life, they think something must be terribly wrong.

[Adaline'sMama]

This thread is just proof that we cant have a decent conversation about anything without arguing about parenting styles. I rarely bow out of a thread, but I think this one has gotten way off topic and we were supposed to be talking about why these wars exist, not debating parenting styles.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

My points is, it is time to stop all of this and demand equal benefits for all. Mothers and fathers need parental leave which is paid and meaningfull. A year that can be split between partners. Universal health care that covers everyone.

That, at least, we agree on. Canada has it right in those areas, imo.

[katelove]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Under the conditions I describe formula is not a "maybe" but a must because the alternative is nothing. Before formula was available babies were given raw com milk and died.

Why is so hard to compute that now everyone can breastfeed? I could, but it did not make me a better mother, it just means I was very very lucky.
 

I wasn't suggesting that formula wasn't necessary in the cases you described. Nor did I in any way suggest that BFing makes you a better mother. My point, and I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear in my first post, is that even if formula is necessary it still doesn't have the immune and nutritional benefits of BM.

[katelove]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

Links to studies please.  I want to see scientific confrimation that doing every single AP thing produces confident child.

ACE score studies show that being abuse physically, exposed to violence  in childhood etc has a negative impact on adulthood, but those are extreme things.
 

No studies and, again, I obviously haven't made myself clear. My point is not that AP is  necessarily better but that the benefits which I hope to gain are not ones which will be discernible by casual observation of my child in the playground.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

This thread is just proof that we cant have a decent conversation about anything without arguing about parenting styles. I rarely bow out of a thread, but I think this one has gotten way off topic and we were supposed to be talking about why these wars exist, not debating parenting styles.

Right, and you're bowing out because everyone else has debated parenting styles and you don't want to get involved. Because when you posted the quote below, you weren't making any judgements about parenting styles.  

You CERTAINLY didn't meant to imply that WOHMs are not going to be able to raise "bright inquisitive children" or that all working moms work so that their children can "Afford a nice apartment in the city and marry well."   Even though that is how your post most definitely comes across. 

For the record, you can work, and even use daycare, and still raise bright inquisitive children.   Mine question authority all the time, take responsibility for the care of their pets and the safety of their friends, and can find wild foods in the woods and know how to build a fire with a bow drill.    Even though they both went to daycare.   Maybe its because they only went part time?

There have been "mommy wars" since the end of world war two (many women worked outside the home before then, but they were mostly childless) when the men returned to work and women were expected to return to the home. Many women stayed in the workplace because they liked working outside the home and they got a lot of flack for it. Im not saying its right. Im a WAHM, but I think if you want to work outside the home that is your business. Personally, I cant imagine being away from my kid for that many hours a week, but a lot of women make a lot of money and can afford to send their kids to good schools and provide a stable financial situation (which we also dont have). Im just saying that its not like we created this war, its been going on for a long , long time.

Different people make different parenting choices, and have hopes of raising different types of children. I hope to raise a bright, inquisitive child who is sensitive but strong. Loving and kind. Always questioning authority and the state of the world in some hope of making it better. I want her to have the basic skills of how to live in this world, and how to survive in the woods for a few days. I hope she knows how to do trigonometry, bake, and build a decent fire.htb

My neighboor wants to raise a kid who can get a good job, afford a nice apartment in the city, marry a well off man (which is why she should not eat sweet rolls:eyesroll ) and have lots of little babies (as long as they arent with a black man) for her to tell they are getting too fat too. We have totally different priorities. She works outside the home, sees her kids 2-3 hours a day, and sends them to grandma's on the weekend. She spends just enough time with them to tell them everything they are doing wrong.

[petey44]

Originally Posted by DevaMajka 

Yes, I haven't seen any WOHM judgement in this thread.

Originally Posted by Brandybutter 

 Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc.

 

That's the one most obvious judgment of WOHMs I've seen in this thread- but there have been more.  I find it interesting that you are able to skim past the points that you apparently don't want to see.

And btw, brandybutter, it is simply not true that OF COURSE bf is better than formula, or that children are best raised by family, not daycare.  Think of all the examples of abusive parents that women here had to deal with, and just all the abuse in general in this world.  You think daycare wouldn't have been a better choice for a little girl who was getting raped by her father, beaten by her mother, fondled by her uncle, whipped by her grandmother?  You think the alcoholic mom should bf after drinking all day, instead of giving formula?  Really?

[GuildJenn]

You know, I clicked on this thread and read it (quickly), went away from it, and then I decided...maybe the fact that I was about to walk away is interesting enough to post in it.

My elder son is 6, and I have had the joy of having a group of "mom friends" as well as other friends with kids all about the same age. We're all pretty middle-class: Some hanging on by their fingernails, some with healthy slush funds. We're not all white or Canadian-born, but we are geographically close to each other (mostly) and that makes for some similarities.

Lots of us have made very different decisions in our parenting. I have to say all our kids are amazing and attached...no word of a lie. (It's like Lake Wobegon. :)) There is no way you could pick out who made which decisions. Some of the healthiest-living parents' kids have had major health issues. Some of the worst's kids have never even needed antibiotics.

I am sure as they grow, some of them will have trouble - at school, at home, with drugs, socially - and some will not remain okay, and I don't think I am able to predict at all which ones those will be. What I can predict though, is that if we continue to be as tight as group as we are - we will all get together at wine night and try to problem-solve together, and show up on each other's doorsteps with help. Trust me, that help listening to me vent from my *gasp* formula feeding friend, or the ability of the *gasp* WOHMs (I am a proud member) to buy someone's child a round of swim lessons is a critical difference for all our kids.

Variety is strength. Being willing to try out new things when what you're doing now is not working for you is strength. Being ready to flex what you thought you would do to what you need to do is strength. Sometimes holding to your ideals is strength. And sometimes, our strength or our understanding fails, or reality - job loss, illness etc. - intervenes...and then we have to depend on our own and our kids' resilience. And that's okay.

When we make wars, our kids are the casualties. When we give our kids the idea that our neighbours are not doing it right, we are teaching them to be harsh judges of themselves. When we focus on minute details of parenting rather than focusing on the village - yes, the vaunted village to raise the child, which means your formula-feeding, CIO-advocating woman who really does want to work in order to go to an exploitative resort for a week in the winter and get her nails done every week because she is a human being and a parent too - we really miss out on the point, I think.

I support you all in your choices.

[Honey693]

You know what I've noticed?  You never see dad's doing this?  Ever.  Why is that?  Why do mom's get so wrapped up in the drama?

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by Honey693 

You know what I've noticed?  You never see dad's doing this?  Ever.  Why is that?  Why do mom's get so wrapped up in the drama?

'Cause dads know that grandpas will make up for it!  LOL.  Seriously, my DH is the most laid back person I've ever met.  He's confident in the way he handles things and I never hear him talking about other people and the way they choose to do things (aside from things that he thinks are in his opinion, morally wrong).

My father and mother, though (especially my father) butts in on everyone's business...and have many comments about how everyone else is running their households.  They're gravely concerned about how their grandchildren are going to turn out.  They think that our co-sleeping with DD will result in big problems for DD in her adult life.  Whatever, Mom & Dad.  The grandparent wars are much more on my radar than the mommy wars.  At least with the mommy wars, I can just turn off the computer.  My parents are in my face about everything! 

[Laurski]

GuildJenn--I think your post is really excellent and thoughtfully articulated!

I started reading this thread last night and have been mulling it over since.  What I've been disheartened to see here is the potentially very interesting question devolve into a bit of myopia.  A discussion of individual parenting styles doesn't really get us to the heart of the issue, because the I think the larger question is: who benefits from the so-called "Mommy Wars"?  Certainly moms don't, for all such "wars" do is estrange us from each other and distract our attention from the more important issues. 

Although I don't necessarily agree with everything Alenushka has written, I think she does make a very important point with the following:

My points is, it is time to stop all of this and demand equal benefits for all. Mothers and fathers need parental leave which is paid and meaningfull. A year that can be split between partners. Universal health care that covers everyone.

Mommy Wars are product of ridiculous societal inequality and denail of one simple fact....money matters.  Things like paid parental leave, universal healthcare and high qulity availbale day care makes it a better life for all

Patriarchy, institutionalized sexism, and the status quo all win when we become so invested in criticizing the parenting styles of others, rather than criticizing a system (at least in the US) that doesn't guarantee the health, safety, and well-being of all children through the availability of universal health care and quality day care.  If those two things were available, the ability of parents to have choices as to how they want to structure their family relationships (both parents WOH, one parent SAH, one or both parents WAH, etc.) would increase in ways that would, hopefully, not require people to make extraordinary personal or financial sacrifices to do so.  An extended parental leave for the first year of a child's life (or, in the case of adoption, the first year a child is at home with the parents), would also help support families in raising their children, which is another area in which the US is severely lacking.

So, to sum up, I think we need to step back from our personal preferences and defensiveness over our choices and instead question who benefits from "Mommy Wars" and why they benefit.  I think it's safe to say, based on the direction this thread has taken, that none of us do.

[sewchris2642]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

Originally Posted by petey44 

Again, don't know if the OP meant it like this, but it sounded like she was saying that most if not all WOHMs are at least somewhat like that.  Which is, of course, not true.  But we can only make our judgments based on what we have experienced, and if a person has limited experience with another subgroup, and that experience has been negative, the person is more than likely going to extend that judgment to everyone in that subgroup. 

 for an argument. 

That's not what I meant, I was only explaining that there are people in this world whose parenting view differ GREATLY from most of ours, but we tend to focus on our differences. Its like playing against people who are on your same team.

Originally Posted by sewchris2642 

Unless your child is the "one in x" that the statistics talk about, it really doesn't matter in the long run, barring outright abuse/abject poverty, what parenting decisions parents decide on for their children.  And that is a very humbling thought.  (General) we want to believe that the decisions and sacrifices we make for our children will result in superior adults.  And it isn't necessarily so.  There have been successful adults who come from horrendous abuse/abject poverty, raised by nannies,etc. and the reverse is also true.  The 'mommy wars" will end when we all realize that we all are collectively doing the best we can with the resources and children we have.  And remember that expert advices changes as well as laws over the years as more information is discovered and old information is modified.

Im sorry, but I just dont believe that. There are A LOT of parents who are not doing the best they can. My mother was one of them. I remember several times when people at the grocery store or in other public places would tell my mom things like "dont pull her up by the arm like that" or "hey, dont smack her, she is just a baby" or "you know if you let your kids drink coke out of a bottle their teeth will rot out" or "gosh, you all are at McDonald's everytime Im here, do you ever eat at home?" along with many other remarks that embarrassed me and my four siblings. She always bitched the whole way home "Why do they think they have the right to tell me how to parent my kids? What the f---, mind your own business" and other nice things...

My brother and sister both have rotten teeth and have since they were little, and its because she fed them sugar and didnt force them to brush, not because they have "bad teeth".
My mother hit all of us all the time, including when we were as young as 6 months old.
My brother did have his shoulder pulled out of socket as a result of her yanking him up by the arm
We DID eat fast food every night and all of us struggle with weight

But god forbid you try to tell her anything, especially that breastmilk is better for a baby than formula. Because she will let you know that she's "got better things to do than sit around with a baby stuck to her tit all day long."

and she wasnt on drugs, she wasnt an alcoholic, she was married with 5 kids and came from an upper middle class background. She thought she knew it all, and she was a horrible parent. To this day, she cant take advice or criticism about her parenting styles.


I just dont believe everyone is doing the "best they can." There are a lot of people who put their own wants and needs above that of their children.

Not exactly what I'm talking about.  Although I personally know of a child will lots of cavities, not because he drank formula or had soda in his bottle, but because his mother had morning sickness almost her entire pregnancy.  He was breastfed until he self-weaned when his mother was pregnant with his sister when he was 15 months old.

I'm talking about families who care about their children, make the best choices they can for their children.  One family uses disposables, formula, kids sleep in their own rooms from day one, go to public school, etc.  All the things that are considered "mainstream" here.  Another family, living next door, does the whole AP route--breastfeed, co-sleep, maybe even birth at home, cloth diapers, home school, etc.  As the kids grow up what differences, if any, get smaller and smaller until they become non-existent.  Anot they all grow up to become happy, well-adjusted (whatever adjectives you want to insert) adults.

Whether or not I used cloth diapers, made or bought babyfood, put my kids in cribs or co-slept, etc. doesn't mean much 18-20 years later.