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War between the Mom's - Page 4

post #61 of 289

This thread is sort of hilarious. Great demonstration, guys! thumb.gif

 

lol.gif

post #62 of 289

As far as dads being judgemental, exdp is judgemental and will speak his mind on certain things (mostly on how a child is treated- he doesn't give a hoot about cd'ing, wahm vs. wohm, bf'ing...none of that stuff) if the situation calls for it. But somehow, I think that he says it in a way that people don't perceive it as judgement. He's very personable, and is intuitive as far as how people feel. I don't think people get defensive in response to him speaking up. 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by petey44 View Post





That's the one most obvious judgment of WOHMs I've seen in this thread- but there have been more.  I find it interesting that you are able to skim past the points that you apparently don't want to see.

 



 

I stand corrected. I guess I was looking for things specifically stating "wohm" or something. But even that statement was "kids are better off with x" and not "I'm disgusted by people who do x." That was my main point, that hers was the "biggest" judgement I'd noticed in this thread.

 

I don't think it's that I skim past points that I don't want to see. I think that statements like that don't register that much to me. Even if it were something that I was doing, ie if someone said that "kids are better off learning at home" (my kid is public schooled). I don't think that would register that much to me as a judgement, and I'm not sure why. I'll try to be more aware of those types of comments.  

 

ftr, I don't think her statement "kids are better off at home" is necessarily true. It might be a better decision for some families, and daycare might be better for others. I had a friend who said she was a better mom, and happier, when she had a job and had regular time away from her kids. I believe her, and I can certainly see how that could be true for a lot of people (sometimes I think it would be true for me). 

 

 

post #63 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyllya View Post




According to the US Department of Women's Health (right here on their website), formula-fed babies are more likely to have diabetes (type 1 and 2), asthma, SIDS, childhood leukemia. I'd count those as "lasting damage."

 

Now, I'm in complete agreement with you guys on thinking it's silly to criticize someone for using a stroller, especially when both the baby and the parents seem happy with the stroller. But I don't think we should minimize the importance of life-and-potential-death things like human milk and car seats just so moms who don't feel like using those things won't feel bad.

 

 

 

 

I totally did not get that vibe from what she wrote. I think some people are so used to being judged that they start seeing judgment where it doesn't exist (hence the drama in the "You might be crunchy" topic).


Okay... I didn't even read anything after this post yet....  But really....  "But I don't think we should minimize the importance of life-and-potential-death things like human milk and car seats just so moms who don't feel like using those things won't feel bad."

 

For some Moms formula feeding, or say not feeding the baby is life or death.  Do you realize how hurtful, rude and damaging statements like that are to Moms who absolutely COULD NOT breastfeed their babies for whatever reason?

 

How do you know just by looking at a Mom feeding her baby from a bottle what her reasons/background is for having to bottle/formula feed?  This whole stupid argument about formula feeding is akin to abuse is a bunch of BS!  If you only have the choice of your baby starving, or feeding your baby formula... what choice are YOU going to make??!!!  And when you formula feed so your baby can THRIVE!  I hope someone comes up and tells you that you are abusing your baby because you chose to formula feed.

 

:rolleyes

 

 

 

 

 

post #64 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandybutter View Post

The differences between us all is fascinating! Seeing the differences gives me clarity on what I'm doing and why, giving me MORE confidence in the way I parent. Is it really possible to not be judgmental? I think discernment is healthy as long as your not being rude in confronting someone else.

Most of my friends are mainstream parents who use disposables, weaned before 1yr, have sleep trained their kids and basically have a parent-centered style. They know what I'm doing (the complete opposite!), but for some reason they choose to do what is popular advice from their Drs, hospital mom groups, or books. I do sense that these parents are not very confident and I do see developmental differences in our children. Again, this makes me feel like I'm on the right track and I would never dream of pointing these out. Yes, I guess I do feel some of my choices are better for children in general. Of course bf is better than formula, children are best raised by family - not daycare, etc. I bite my tongue a lot.

My friendships are dear, and I'm finding that maintaining them with these differences is building tolerance, compassion, and making me a better role model for my son. These friends are likely doing the same with me! We all have our individual karma, parents and children. I will be an advocate for any child that I feel is abused or neglected, but that is where I draw the line.


 

 

And people honestly wonder why some Mom's get angry and hurt... with statments like that?  Your kids are so much better off because you get to raise them instead of daycare...   Wow, it must be INCREDIBLY NICE AND PRIVILAGED for you to have that as an option.  I guess my kids are just doomed because I'm a single mom and have no choice but to work and put my kids in the care of someone else, huh?!

 

Statements like that are what cause Mommy Wars... way to go.

 

post #65 of 289


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama View Post




 

 

And people honestly wonder why some Mom's get angry and hurt... with statments like that?  Your kids are so much better off because you get to raise them instead of daycare...   Wow, it must be INCREDIBLY NICE AND PRIVILAGED for you to have that as an option.  I guess my kids are just doomed because I'm a single mom and have no choice but to work and put my kids in the care of someone else, huh?!

 

Statements like that are what cause Mommy Wars... way to go.

 



And while we're at it, it even used the classic "Someone else is raising your children!" trope!    Because as soon as they cross the threshold of the childcare center, the daycare providers become more important to a child than their parents.    Yep, that one ALWAYS goes over well.   There's NEVER been an MDC flamewar about  the "raising" phrase, ever before.     Because we all agree that we have neglible influence over our child's development because they have other people caring for them some of the time.  In fact, the working husbands of SAHMs don't get to "raise" their children either!   They just provide the cash for the person doing the real work!

post #66 of 289
Hi moms, so I'm new to the MDC forums and was excited to participate in this thread. I think it's really weird that this topic on why there are wars between moms has become a big war between us. I am truly sorry if anyone took offense in my previous post. I think those of you who have quoted and responded harshly to it were completely missing my point. I was expressing my personal thoughts, which are judgements, because we all have them! Those of us who parent mindfully have chosen a certain parenting style for a reason and for some of us, that is counter culture. There is no need to become defensive. Like I said in my post, I appreciate the differences between us. We are all passionate about parenting and love our kids. All of us on here have that in common. Bless you...
post #67 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandybutter View Post

Hi moms, so I'm new to the MDC forums and was excited to participate in this thread. I think it's really weird that this topic on why there are wars between moms has become a big war between us. I am truly sorry if anyone took offense in my previous post. I think those of you who have quoted and responded harshly to it were completely missing my point. I was expressing my personal thoughts, which are judgements, because we all have them! Those of us who parent mindfully have chosen a certain parenting style for a reason and for some of us, that is counter culture. There is no need to become defensive. Like I said in my post, I appreciate the differences between us. We are all passionate about parenting and love our kids. All of us on here have that in common. Bless you...


To further illustrate how the debate gets going:  In the context of your previous posts, the bolded above?   It could carry the implication that those who don't choose SAHM are *not* "parenting mindfully."  Or those who are not parenting exactly the way *you* parent are not "Parenting mindfully."      

post #68 of 289
Savinthy, please, you are picking at every word in my post and making an issue out of it. I was referring to all of us here. We are all mindful of our parenting choices if we engage in parenting discussions. I have apologized and yet you persist. I am not antagonistic nor confrontational. Give me a break.
post #69 of 289

True- Brandybutter said "and for some of us, that is counter culture." as the rest of the line that you bolded. So, for "some of us" it's counter culture, for others it's not. Both are included in those who parent mindfully. (that's how I read it)

post #70 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandybutter View Post

Savinthy, please, you are picking at every word in my post and making an issue out of it. I was referring to all of us here. We are all mindful of our parenting choices if we engage in parenting discussions. I have apologized and yet you persist. I am not antagonistic nor confrontational. Give me a break.


I understand.  I wouldn't go as far as calling myself counter culture, but because I WOHM, I think my family defies traditional 50s models of the mom stays at home while the dad wins the bread.  It is pretty awesome that my DH co-parents and co-bread wins.  To me, that used to be pretty counter culture but I think there is a whole new generation of dads who take stock in the raising of kids.  Under the old model, dads provided, and their contributions to parenting maybe consisted of rough housing with the kids for an hour or so at night (that was my own dad).  All of us here at MDC, and I would guess a lot of non-MDC types, parent in mindful ways.  I wouldn't expect SAHMs (who actually care) to be bonbon eaters any more than I would expect SAHPs to define me as as someone who farms out their kid for others to raise them.  My absolute opinion is that good kids are products of good parenting, which involves much more than the means and methods.  Means and methods (to use a construction phrase) are a segment of getting there.  

 

To me, parenting involves much more than the proverbial brick and mortal stuff, the time logged.  To me, there is a spiritual and emotional component that is just as important as the physical stuff.  I compare it to my own work (WOHM work):  people are paying me to produce a good product.  It is not gaged by the number of hours I do it, but by the quality of time and effort and care that I put into the end result.  Like that, parenting is a much philosophical pursuit.  It is not about clocking hours so much as the effort and love and hard work that you put into it.  Look, my own parents (whom I love) were the perfect American 1950s-1970s family.  Dad went off to work every day, mom stayed at home, kids ran wild in the woods.  Unfortunately, there was a dark underside to my family (which I won't get into here) but it is prime example that parenting is about so much more than outward method.  I learned a lot from how I was raised and how not to parent.  I don't blame my parents for the way that they raised us, but I do resent the idea that they bought into a plan on how to raise children.  My parents were victims of this and I feel bad that they didn't have the wherewithal to recognize that maybe certain things weren't right, or that maybe certain ways of connecting to their children were better.  They were doing everything right by their time's standards, yet it was all so very wrong for me.  Mindfulness ran much deeper than how they practiced their parenting, it was about how they viewed my siblings and I as human beings.  Shoot, I can't explain myself well here.  The whole thing is much more philosophical to me than hard methods.

 


Edited by CatsCradle - 6/27/11 at 7:27pm
post #71 of 289

 

Quote:
But for the rest of us, why the war?

 

Why the war?  I don't know, but I refuse to buy into it. 

 

I do think some people like to argue, regardless of what point they've chosen.  I think people enjoy getting self-righteous and sometimes the consequence is that fellow mamas get torn down.

 

I believe that this sort of acrimony is poison to a person's psyche.

 

 

post #72 of 289

So is it actually possible to talk about different parenting choices, to argue about them even, without entering into "the mommy wars"? 

post #73 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by t2009 View Post

So is it actually possible to talk about different parenting choices, to argue about them even, without entering into "the mommy wars"? 


It certainly is possible IRL. I've never heard anyone use the phrase "dump your children in daycare" in face to face conversation. It seems to be used a lot in MDC as people assume they are in an echo chamber and will not be called on it.

post #74 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post




It certainly is possible IRL. I've never heard anyone use the phrase "dump your children in daycare" in face to face conversation. It seems to be used a lot in MDC as people assume they are in an echo chamber and will not be called on it.

That's a good observation.  I think the wars are a result, in large part, of the open communication of the internet.  It is not to say that certain underhanded comments are not made in the supermarket or amongst extended family members or neighbors.  But all-out war IRL?  That hasn't been my experience.  I also think we're less delicate when espousing our feelings and opinions on the internet.  In real life, we have social and family relationships to maintain, and I think we pause before we speak. 

 

 

post #75 of 289


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post




It certainly is possible IRL. I've never heard anyone use the phrase "dump your children in daycare" in face to face conversation. It seems to be used a lot in MDC as people assume they are in an echo chamber and will not be called on it.


Yes, things are certainly amplified in the internet "echo chamber," but I do find a sort of awkwardness (if not open hostility) that has seeped into IRL conversations... As if everyone is reading the comments & commentary on the internet, the stuff that makes it into the media & into print, etc, & then closing up. I would love to talk about some of the things that are really interesting or important to me with friends, but I just don't for fear of being judged or for fear of my friends thinking I'm judging. So instead of talking out my dilemmas on discipline or sleep with people IRL (people who know my DS), I turn to the internet & make decisions on my own (meaning just DH & me)...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post



That's a good observation.  I think the wars are a result, in large part, of the open communication of the internet.  It is not to say that certain underhanded comments are not made in the supermarket or amongst extended family members or neighbors.  But all-out war IRL?  That hasn't been my experience.  I also think we're less delicate when espousing our feelings and opinions on the internet.  In real life, we have social and family relationships to maintain, and I think we pause before we speak. 

 

 

 

Yes, thankfully people are usually softer & kinder (& more thoughtful!) IRL!
 

 

post #76 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelownes View Post
When I tried to go back to work, I sat at my desk sobbing about my child being in a day care all day. I would call them all day to see how she was doing! I finally  marched into the owner of the firm's office and said, "i can't do this, I am sorry" and quit. But that is just my story. 

 

I believe that we are all different and do things differently. Now of course, I do not have tolerance for smoking in front of babies, or getting drunk and then trying to take care of little ones. There are limits and decorum. But for the rest of us, why the war? What are we saying about women here by starting this war?


I absolutely love your post mama! I hate the mom wars too even though I may have been guilty of judging here and there but have learned from these things. I will also say it may have been a bit of hormones and once they subsided, I was able to tolerate more. LOL. I was very successful in my career as you were in yours, I didn't even bother with the daycare because luckily, I was able to stay home and KNEW I'd NEVER be able to do the daycare thing. I also agree with your issues with smoking in front of babies and getting drunk while taking care of little ones. Being an ex-smoker and weekend drinker in my 20s, I really never thought much of how I would act once I had a baby. But I did have the sense to keep away from kids as much as possible. Now I find it INCREDIBLY strange how many people I know do that, even after babies, I find it quite unsettling. For me, becoming a mom was so much more fulfilling and I didn't need to do those things anymore or hang around people who do/did. But this is me.

 

I will say I am also SUPER tired of the mom wars and now really look for friends who don't judge. Family is family and you can't choose them, but you can at least see them as often (or not often) as you like. Have you posted to your tribal area to try and meet some moms in your area? I have and while it's slow going, I've had a few responses. ;)

 

Kudos to you, eelownes!

post #77 of 289

Quote:

Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

 I was very successful in my career as you were in yours, I didn't even bother with the daycare because luckily, I was able to stay home and KNEW I'd NEVER be able to do the daycare thing.

One thing I have learned as a parent is never to say NEVER as it is practically an invitation for a kharmic smackdown. Circumstances can change very radically, and "I could never" can turn very quickly to "I need to". That is when you really learn not to be judgemental.

post #78 of 289

you know.. daycare is not bad.  some children learn best in a group setting.  some children thrive at home.  some mamas thrive at home.  some mamas go to work and like it.  some mamas go to work and hate it but do it for a vast array of reasons.  some mamas, like my dear friend, have hepatitis and need to feed their happy, healthy babies formula.  some people like cloth diapers.  some don't.  some people don't have a washer and dryer. 

 

for me, the bottom line is: do you care about your babies and are you raising them to the best of your ability?  even if your best might vary from day to day.  on a suck day, your best might be to turn on the tv and plop a baby in front of it so that you don't begin to frantically scream.

 

i really really want to be kind.  to other mamas.  that's why i am on mdc.  if i wanted to be a jerk to somebody, there are some really really really good targets out there.  anybody see that kia ad?  did you know they were keeping 2 sets of books at the upper big branch mine to keep the regulating bodies from knowing they knew how dangerous conditions for the workers were before they died in a cave in?

you know?  they're trying to pass legislation in my state to make people report to physicians if they have a miscarriage, otherwise it's 'prenatal murder.'  trying to make rape victims not be called victims anymore, having to defend their sexual histories in court.  there's a bunch of crap going on in the world being done by some evil people, and some other mama, even if she makes an ignorant statement about daycare is NOT the problem.  i wish folks would be so energetic about fighting the REAL problems. 

post #79 of 289

Hildare, that's really well said.

post #80 of 289

That is a great post, Hildare.  H

 

And, holy cow, who is trying to pass legislation regarding rape and miscarriage as mentioned in your post?  That's wacky/disturbing.  Are they special interest groups lobbying for such legislation?  I'm going to have to look that up. 

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