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War between the Mom's - Page 5

post #81 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

That is a great post, Hildare.  H

 

And, holy cow, who is trying to pass legislation regarding rape and miscarriage as mentioned in your post?  That's wacky/disturbing.  Are they special interest groups lobbying for such legislation?  I'm going to have to look that up. 

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion   this is US House (from Jan)-- it deals with abortion but the way that the legislators are doing it is also redefining what rape means.

and the article references both the rape redefinition and the miscarriage nonsense here an includes a link to the proposal to change the term 'victim' of rape to 'accuser.' http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/02/miscarriage-death-penalty-georgia  - they have since changed the wording of the miscarriage bit so that from what i can tell you just have to 'report' the miscarriage.. but it was much worse before.  they are some women haters in georgia, i tell you. 
 

 

post #82 of 289
Daycare is fine for many, many families. I even considered it before I met my DD. She's shy and most content in a small group. That's hard to come by daycare-wise where I live. Yes never say never, I get that, totally but, the funny thing is: daycare is very expensive (where I live), it's a huge industry. It's cheaper to live poor then to work part time and put DD in daycare! Crazy right? My entire salary would go toward care and I'd end up going to work for almost free! So that's another reason. Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change! wink1.gif

But... C'est la vie. wink1.gif
post #83 of 289


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

Daycare is fine for many, many families. I even considered it before I met my DD. She's shy and most content in a small group. That's hard to come by daycare-wise where I live. Yes never say never, I get that, totally but, the funny thing is: daycare is very expensive (where I live), it's a huge industry. It's cheaper to live poor then to work part time and put DD in daycare! Crazy right? My entire salary would go toward care and I'd end up going to work for almost free! So that's another reason. Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change! wink1.gif

But... C'est la vie. wink1.gif

 

Another thing not changing... snide remarks putting down mothers who WOH & put their children in a childcare situation.

 

Wow... I'm sorry but have you totally ignored the purpose of this thread & the recent posts?! This is exactly the sort of judgment-filled commentary that feeds the mommy wars.

 

It's wonderful that you've listened to & responded to your child's personality & needs. And that you've figured out what makes you happy & works for your family. But why is it so difficult to embrace & support other decisions, other approaches?

 

Guess what? I also had a child to be a mother (whatever that means...). And guess what? I'm raising him "myself" (again... whatever that means...) even though he's been in the care of some wonderful women other than myself (not to mention his father!). 

 

Like Hildare put it (so well) it's really not about my choices or your choices, it's about supporting women to be the best moms they can be. And being a good, even great, mom can happen in all sorts of wonderful, different ways.

 

Snarkiness aside & in all seriousness, what kind of conversation is needed to get through to moms like yourself who seem to not be able to help putting others down? Do you see how damaging a comment like that is?

 

post #84 of 289

Yeah, I'm raising my kid as well, despite the fact that he goes to daycare so his father and I can earn money to support our family. I'm still pretty involved in the overall process. 

 

So to answer the question, can moms stop fighting? Probably not on the internet. 

post #85 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannah32 View Post

Yeah, I'm raising my kid as well, despite the fact that he goes to daycare so his father and I can earn money to support our family. I'm still pretty involved in the overall process. 

 

So to answer the question, can moms stop fighting? Probably not on the internet. 

 

Clearly true!
 

 

post #86 of 289

Raising hand.  Yes, raising my own kid here, even though she spends certain hours a day with other people.  Just food for thought:  guess my mom (who was a SAHM) stopped raising me when I started kindergarten and first grade elementary, cause let's face it, I wasn't in her care for a certain number of hours a day.  

 

I'm only going to say this once and I'm not going to say it again:  I am responsible for my child's well being, education, spirituality, physical health and a myriad of other things that go into the development of a human being.  Does she have outside influences?  Yes she does.  Am I raising my child?  Yes I am.  End of story.  Daddy doesn't stop being a daddy because he goes to work...no one ever questions that.  Mommy doesn't stop being a mommy either.  

 

In total agreement with t2009 and Hannah above.  Can we stop this silly language that infers that raising kids requires a certain type of motherhood?  It..is...so...tiresome.

post #87 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post



http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion   this is US House (from Jan)-- it deals with abortion but the way that the legislators are doing it is also redefining what rape means.

and the article references both the rape redefinition and the miscarriage nonsense here an includes a link to the proposal to change the term 'victim' of rape to 'accuser.' http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/02/miscarriage-death-penalty-georgia  - they have since changed the wording of the miscarriage bit so that from what i can tell you just have to 'report' the miscarriage.. but it was much worse before.  they are some women haters in georgia, i tell you. 
 

 


Thanks Hildare.  The rape thing doesn't surprise me, since it is linked to termination of pregnancy, etc.  The miscarriage thing, though, blows my mind, in that that type of legislation was even on the table????  Basically it would be a law that would say you are guilty until proven innocent, which goes against the very core of our criminal justice system which requires that the accused be proven guilty, not that the accused him/herself prove their innocence.  The burden of proof would be on the woman to prove that she didn't murder her unborn child through miscarriage?  That really disturbs me in ways that I can't even begin to describe.  In addition, the idea that one would have to report a miscarriage is also troubling.  There have been many instances in my life where my period was a few weeks late and then I had a heavy, heavy period.  Was that a miscarriage?  Under that particular law, I would need to report it given the murky standard, since the proposed standard is "from conception" instead of from confirmation of pregnancy.  I've had two known miscarriages and they were devastating.  It really irks me that the criminalization of this would even be on anyone's radar.

 

Sorry everyone, to get off track of the thread, but this stuff really riles me...more than mommy wars and anything else.  greensad.gif

 


Edited by CatsCradle - 6/29/11 at 7:23pm
post #88 of 289

Amen! No one ever accuses dads of "not raising their kids" because they're off working. Why is it we get the "I want to raise my own kids" thing only for moms?

 

It's offensive and perpetuates the very mommy wars this thread was decrying.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

Raising hand.  Yes, raising my own kid here, even though she spends certain hours a day with other people.  Just food for thought:  guess my mom (who was a SAHM) stopped raising me when I started kindergarten and first grade elementary, cause let's face it, I wasn't in her care for a certain number of hours a day.  

 

I'm only going to say this once and I'm not going to say it again:  I am responsible for my child's well being, education, spirituality, physical health and a myriad of other things that go into the development of a human being.  Does she have outside influences?  Yes she does.  Am I raising my child?  Yes I am.  End of story.  Daddy doesn't stop being a daddy because he goes to work...no one ever questions that.  Mommy doesn't stop being a mommy either.  

 

In total agreement with t2009 and Hannah above.  Can we stop this silly language that infers that raising kids requires a certain type of motherhood?  It..is...so...tiresome.



 

post #89 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by t2009 View Post


 

 

Another thing not changing... snide remarks putting down mothers who WOH & put their children in a childcare situation.

 

Wow... I'm sorry but have you totally ignored the purpose of this thread & the recent posts?! This is exactly the sort of judgment-filled commentary that feeds the mommy wars.

 

It's wonderful that you've listened to & responded to your child's personality & needs. And that you've figured out what makes you happy & works for your family. But why is it so difficult to embrace & support other decisions, other approaches?

 

Guess what? I also had a child to be a mother (whatever that means...). And guess what? I'm raising him "myself" (again... whatever that means...) even though he's been in the care of some wonderful women other than myself (not to mention his father!). 

 

Like Hildare put it (so well) it's really not about my choices or your choices, it's about supporting women to be the best moms they can be. And being a good, even great, mom can happen in all sorts of wonderful, different ways.

 

Snarkiness aside & in all seriousness, what kind of conversation is needed to get through to moms like yourself who seem to not be able to help putting others down? Do you see how damaging a comment like that is?

 


Yes I have to agree with this...and I think it is making it so hard on yourself as a mother if you define that role only by what is largely a historical & class anomaly - an isolated woman at home with enough technology and leisure to focus on her child's development.

 

Not that it's not lovely to do that if you can, and you enjoy it - it is - but being a parent is so much more...solid than that. It is really amazing what attachment and love can produce. I fully support women who can and want to stay home, but I really wish they did not do it out of fear or concern that otherwise they are "not raising" their kids.

 

If only I could download the positivity that came into my son's and my relationship when I went from being a bit burnt out by 4 pm every day - stressed out about naps, tired out with toddler woes - to picking him up at 4, he having had a day with people who love to nurture kids and me from my job, both of us incredibly joyful to get back together and to spend those three "burnout" hours together so much more happily. That's me of course -- I am not saying other people need to work, at all -- but what it taught me is that man, my son's and my relationship is fierce. It is there for life. And when I was hospitalized on bedrest this winter, it was so good to know that deep in my core-- and to know that whatever other bumps in the road come along, we're a family.

 

That's why I really laugh at the wars. We human beings are so much bigger than that. joy.gif

post #90 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by tillymonster View Post

Daycare is fine for many, many families. I even considered it before I met my DD. She's shy and most content in a small group. That's hard to come by daycare-wise where I live. Yes never say never, I get that, totally but, the funny thing is: daycare is very expensive (where I live), it's a huge industry. It's cheaper to live poor then to work part time and put DD in daycare! Crazy right? My entire salary would go toward care and I'd end up going to work for almost free! So that's another reason. Plus, I had kids to be a mother, to raise them myself. That shall never change! wink1.gif

But... C'est la vie. wink1.gif



Well you know those of us who put our kids in daycare only had them to support the daycare industry right? 

 

 

post #91 of 289

i don't have enough energy to participate in the "mama wars" but i read them with fascination, perhaps put in a short post like this one. a lot of things are said that validate my own opinions, which of course feels good. a lot of things are said that i vehemently disagree with, which causes me to both question and appreciate my own unique parenting skills. a lot of things are said make me feel clueless, so i need to google or wiki them and i end up learning a ton of valuable information.

 

i believe if you have a large group of concerned women arguing over every little thing concerning their body and their kids, it means there is a large group of children that are intensely loved and cared for.

post #92 of 289

 

Quote:
Sorry everyone, to get off track of the thread, but this stuff really riles me...more than mommy wars and anything else.  greensad.gif

 

No, you're right. That stuff is shocking and infuriating.

 

 

Quote:
i believe if you have a large group of concerned women arguing over every little thing concerning their body and their kids, it means there is a large group of children that are intensely loved and cared for.

 

Good take on it. 

post #93 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by DariusMom View Post

Amen! No one ever accuses dads of "not raising their kids" because they're off working. Why is it we get the "I want to raise my own kids" thing only for moms?

 

It's offensive and perpetuates the very mommy wars this thread was decrying.
 

 

I have heard that said about dads who are uninvolved, actually. Not simply because they're working at all, but when they work long hours/have weeks-long business trips, or go out doing leisure activities sans kids atop crazy work schedules. But you're right, 98% of that complaint falls on moms.

 

 

Anyway, I've worked, I've SAH. We eat some junk food and fast food, but we're also vegetarian. I had one kid with horrible childhood cavities and one without (the better teeth kid was born later and ate probably more junk food, actually. He didn't snack all day long, nurse all night long, and has different teeth structure though). I did delayed vaxes. I cloth diapered one her whole diapering life and one about half (he peed through everything I could put together, and with hospital/deaths in the extended family, it was too chaotic for me to continue trying to find a cloth solution). I left them for work with babysitters, at ages some people think are horrible (4 months)... and then overnight with relatives at ages some people think are way too long (3 years)... I yell, though I try not to. I negotiate sometimes but am more disciplinarian than most I see here. And yet, among my in laws, I get the attitude that I am too soft because I don't spank nor CIO. I don't circ. I do some pressured sports in a serious, structured way. I homeschool in a relaxed but structured fashion, and I expect excellent test scores and work. 

 

I am fairly confident in the choices I've made. I don't allow CIO in my home nor stay with people doing CIO. I don't particularly care if they do it, as that doesn't actually affect me or my kids. I don't care if they circ. I don't care if they cloth diaper. I don't care if they do pretty much anything with their own kids unless it directly affects my own. Otherwise, do what you want. I happen to think that what I'm doing is the best for my kids, or at least the best that I can do, but not only do I not have anyone else's kids, but I am not them with their own temperament and quirks. 

post #94 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by t2009 View Post


 

 

Another thing not changing... snide remarks putting down mothers who WOH & put their children in a childcare situation.

 

Wow... I'm sorry but have you totally ignored the purpose of this thread & the recent posts?! This is exactly the sort of judgment-filled commentary that feeds the mommy wars.

 

It's wonderful that you've listened to & responded to your child's personality & needs. And that you've figured out what makes you happy & works for your family. But why is it so difficult to embrace & support other decisions, other approaches?

 

Guess what? I also had a child to be a mother (whatever that means...). And guess what? I'm raising him "myself" (again... whatever that means...) even though he's been in the care of some wonderful women other than myself (not to mention his father!). 

 

Like Hildare put it (so well) it's really not about my choices or your choices, it's about supporting women to be the best moms they can be. And being a good, even great, mom can happen in all sorts of wonderful, different ways.

 

Snarkiness aside & in all seriousness, what kind of conversation is needed to get through to moms like yourself who seem to not be able to help putting others down? Do you see how damaging a comment like that is?

 


I agree with you that her statement was offensive, but I think what SAHMs are trying to say when they say this is "I love spending all day with my children and meeting their daily needs myself." Honestly, some women would love to do this and can't, and some would hate to do it and would prefer to work at something else. (SAHMs are doing work too, despite not getting paid for their efforts.)

 

post #95 of 289

When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.

 

Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war." About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do. 

post #96 of 289


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post




I agree with you that her statement was offensive, but I think what SAHMs are trying to say when they say this is "I love spending all day with my children and meeting their daily needs myself." Honestly, some women would love to do this and can't, and some would hate to do it and would prefer to work at something else. (SAHMs are doing work too, despite not getting paid for their efforts.)

 


That's totally fine & good (& I made the point in my prior post that I thought it was great that Tillymonster has figured out how to make her situation work for her & her family) but that's not what she said. Yes, maybe that's what she meant but the fact is that putting it the way she did has a certain cultural relevance in this context that makes it condescending & insulting.

 

(And there's no doubt -- I don't think anyone's even hinted at it -- that SAHMs are doing real work.)

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.

 

Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war." About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do. 


I'm sorry your mother was so terrible & judgmental of others. And I'm sorry that you've felt judged yourself. But I disagree with the bolded above -- It's been (at least one) SAHM here who's been slinging the insults & I haven't noticed one WOHM doing so. Of course the insults go both ways. But it doesn't really matter who started it -- it matters more that we can figure out how to speak on the same level & support each other. As PPs have said there's so many other things worth fighting over & this isn't one of them.

 

Someone upstream said that the mommy wars at least show that all these women care about all these children. That may be true to a point, but it's also a sort of petty war that doesn't really require much of an investment in children (individual or as a group). If women joined forces to fight the real fights (things like Hildare pointed out, real maternity leave for all WOHMs, some tax credit or other monetary recognition for the work SAHMs do every day, etc.) it would be a better place for families. The divisions create a fatal disconnect (politically) so that WOHMs don't care much what happens to SAHMs & vice versa & nothing changes. And everyone's stretched thin, so the only way to institute changes is to work together. I'm still trying to figure this piece out IRL.

 

post #97 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

When I was growing up, my mother, who worked, made it clear that she hated stay at home moms. But, my mother was an awful mother too. I mean, awful. It was not because she worked, but I do think anyone who hates their kids as much as my mother does and did would probably not be able to tolerate being home with her children. Regardless, my mother said the nastiest and most hateful things about the rare at home parent she knew of.

 

Then, when I ended up a stay at home mom, I found I was working harder than I ever did as a working mom. But I never insulted or criticized working moms. But I did find myself on the receiving end of insults from people who have never stayed home with their children. I have done both so I know what both are like and all about. But the ones who sling insults seem to be the working moms who have never stayed home. I really think that is what "started that war." About the other issues, like breastfeeding vs bottle feeding, etc..I just have never cared about. I do what I do and don't really care what others do. 

I tend to disagree with the bolded part.  While I feel embarrassed that there may have been working moms in your life who disparaged your choice to SAH, I don't think working moms can be blamed for starting the so-called war.  I agree with what Mandalamama said above, that the mommy wars are really about moms who actually care about their children (WOH or SAH) and I think there is an underlying defensiveness with people who feel they are doing the best thing that they can for their families and emotions tend to run high on both fronts.  I don't count the categories of people who just don't care or who are not invested in the outcome of their children.  Those people are not, IMO, part of the mommy wars.  I think I'm pretty representative of the professional class of working moms, and honestly, I don't have time to worry about whether SAHMs are doing it better or worse than me, as I'm sure that SAHMs don't have the time or energy to worry about one-upping me.  My insecurities are about myself.  I don't need to gage myself against the SAHM next door.  I think my situation is pretty common.  If there are working moms dissing SAHMs for the well-thought-out choices that they make for their families, than I have lost a lot of respect for those particular moms.  And, I'll say so and confront them.  But I can't make blanket statements about either group, because it is all too subjective.

 

But from my observation over the years, the slinging of shots is a two way street.  No one group is the bad guy here.  I'm sure that all of us have had underlying resentments and biases no matter our choice or station.
 

 

post #98 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post


I don't count the categories of people who just don't care or who are not invested in the outcome of their children.  Those people are not, IMO, part of the mommy wars.  

I'd rephrase that if I were you ... smile.gif ... it can be read to imply if you (general) don't care about the mommy wars, then you don't care about your children.  Or, if you don't care about your children, then you don't care about mommy wars.  There's something upstream about something similar.

 

Personally, in my own life, I happen to care very deeply about my children but don't care in the least about the mommy war (it doesn't bother me much but I read and follow to learn more).  I probably am not the only one.  No, I am not upset with what you said, but someone else might.  I think they can be mutually exclusive - no data to back it up, but I wouldn't discount all possiblities quite yet, which are:

- care about mommy wars, care about children

- don't care about wars, care about children

- care about wars, don't care about children

- don't care about wars, don't care about children

 

Another possible spin off?  What does it mean if you don't care about the mommy wars?  Are you a good/bad parent or something? This is getting fun ... lol.gif ...

 

 

post #99 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by DariusMom View Post

Amen! No one ever accuses dads of "not raising their kids" because they're off working. Why is it we get the "I want to raise my own kids" thing only for moms?

 

It's offensive and perpetuates the very mommy wars this thread was decrying.

 

 

Actually, while I have no objection to WOHM (and I was one for ten years), I don't find it at all uncommon for moms to say "I stay home and raise the kids" or for men to talk about a division of labour where "I work, and she raises the kids". So, I don't think that's really a fair comment. At least some men, and some women, feel that a WOHD is contributing by earning and income, but is not actually rearing the children himself.

 

This one doesn't bother me at all. I felt at the time, and still feel, that many other people raised ds1. I did some of it, too, but it wasn't the same as being a SAHM. Maybe that's where some of the issues come up. I should be able to say "I wanted to SAH and raise my own kids for a change" without that being seen as a reflection on anybody else's choices. I, personally, don't feel as though I was raising ds1 when I was gone M-F from the time I dropped him at school until I picked him up at 6:30. If that's how I felt, and it's not what I want now, how is that "offensive"? Am I supposed to just shut up, because someone else who is WOH thinks I'm talking about her? If a WOHP, whether mom or dad, feels that they are raising their own child(ren), then why do they care if someone else in the same situation feels differently? (FWIW, I know that dh doesn't feel that he's raising his own kids, and he does feel a loss in that respect. And, he's a very, very involved dad. I'm not telling anyone that their own perspective, on their own situation, is invalid.)

 


 



 



 

post #100 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post



 

I have heard that said about dads who are uninvolved, actually. Not simply because they're working at all, but when they work long hours/have weeks-long business trips, or go out doing leisure activities sans kids atop crazy work schedules. But you're right, 98% of that complaint falls on moms.

 


Some of why we are so hard on each other comes down to gender issues.  Men are not so hard on themselves or each other as far as I can tell.  Mommy wars might be a feminist issue.

 

Culturally, aren't women either born or programmed to be more socially oriented than males?  Perhaps that is why we socially pick each other apart?

 

I do think many (and I definitely include myself in this) have to think things through before we write.  We say things that really aren't correct.  Finger fly faster than the brain.  On the flip side though (and I have seen this a lot lately On MDC) people get upset over perceived judgement that is not really there.  If I say I am crunchy because I grow my own veg, it really isn't a judgement against those who pick up their veg from the supermarkets.  I don't think we should become so afraid of hurting someones sensitivities that we cannot express an opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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