We're not into hitting- but the ex is.

[UnboxableMom]

I'm not sure whether this should've been in this forum or the one for extended/split families, but I guess if I'm wrong the moderators will move it.

Okay, my two youngest kids are visiting their daddy 8 hours away. The two are aged 5 and 7. He and I have joint custody. Last visit was over Easter break, and the 5yo decided she didn't want to go. I packed her stuff in case she changed her mind. We met at the halfway point, and she told him she missed him but did not want to go to his house, and she got back in our (my and my husband's) vehicle to come home.  The last time she did go, in January, she was supposed to spend three months, and finally he allowed her to come home after she begged me to come get her every night, saying she was 'done with these spanking people'.

 Tonight, my 5yo talked to me, very upset. Now what follows is her words.  She wants me to come to her dad's house and make him understand that spanking is hitting and slapping is hitting. She says she just can't make him understand. She wants me to tell him that the more he spanks the more I'm not going to send my kids to his house.

Spanking is legal. The hitting that goes on in his house is almost certainly within the bounds of legal discipline. It's not her who is being hit, even- it's the smaller child who is in the house (not mine, and I think he's in the 18month to two years range). Apparently when he gets disciplined, the 5yo tries to explain to the adults that they shouldn't hit people.

(I'll interrupt myself here to say that while I don't hear what she says to her daddy and stepmom, I have heard her explain to my own mother that spanking is hitting and hitting people smaller than you is called bullying, so I know how she talks about it, and can reasonably extrapolate what she must say to her daddy.)

Anyway, I can't imagine there's a thing I can do to stop him.

What I am wondering is, how do I explain to my 5yo that I cannot stop her daddy from hitting this kid she knows as a baby brother? What do I say to the 5yo, when I can't even take her hands and look her in the eyes, when I have to do it by phone over an 8 hour distance and crappy reception? And how do I make her feel safe?

The kids have been there about 48 hours now, and I've already heard countless times that they're afraid of getting in trouble for minor things. Stepmom scolded 7yo for staying up so late, and "I wanted to tell her dad was up with me watching a movie, but I figured she'd call that arguing and I'd just get in trouble."  "I wanted to tell [stepmom] that [5yo] doesn't take naps at home, but I was afraid I'd get in trouble." 

The 7yo also has a fear of yelling. (He had a real screamer for a teacher in kindergarten, and he's never gotten over the awful effect she had on him before I understood what was going on and pulled him out.) He is afraid to speak up about anything there lest he be shouted at. When he comes home from a visit, it's days before he stops flinching whenever he says anything that could be by any extreme stretch be considered arguing or disagreeing (I mean by even EXTREME stretch- "Didn't you already have a cookie?" "No (flinch), I asked for one and then got involved in a cartoon and forgot to get it." Clearly waiting to be shouted at.

The problem is, the stuff they do is not LEGALLY wrong. Which means all I can do is try to teach my kids how to cope with it. And I'm at a loss on that one.

[chaimom]

Oh my gosh.  I can't even imagine how horrible it must feel not to be able to protect your little ones from this.  You sound like a wonderful mom.

The only thing I can think of is talking to your divorce attorney.  Is it possible you can get your custody agreement amended to say that he is not to spank or intimidate your children?  I don't think you'd be able to do anything about the baby-- poor child-- but perhaps your two kids could be spared.  

I'm so sorry your little ones have to be exposed to this.  

{{hugs}}

[UnboxableMom]

I do not have and cannot afford an attorney. He and I were never married, and we wrote the custody agreement ourselves, basically copying from a form available online, to say that each trusted the other to make parenting and medical decisions and that we both accepted joint custody. He could afford a lawyer, and I was leaving the state, so I felt it was in my best interests to write something we could both agree on without lawyers. I was afraid he'd have a lawyer argue that I'd be uprooting the kids from all they knew, and that he'd win.

It's been only a year and a half, and that's enough that the kids have already learned that this- where I grew up- is home, and they have more connections and attachments here than they did there in their whole lives- family (his lives there but he doesn't have much to do with them, so the kids don't either), school friends who live nearby (he was adamantly opposed to other kids coming to his house to play, and to any sort of socializing with anyone himself, so the kids pretty much played alone there- no friendships outside school), sports, etc. They lived there for most of their lives, and here for less than two years, but any of them would tell you today that this is home and this is where they feel safe.

At the time I left, they didn't know anything but their lives there, and would obviously not have felt that way if asked. Home would've been the place and lives they knew. I was afraid some judge would ask them what they wanted, and decide to keep them there.

And I've already been told that I have basically no grounds- I called some custody lawyers, and also discussed with CPS workers (without telling them names or details) a year ago when there were a few really weird incidents (my then-4-yo had a strange story about foot-spanking) and was informed that unless there were marks, they didn't really give a damn, basically. I've also discussed with CPS and lawyers the drug use in the home, in hopes that someone would say "What? THAT stuff? Around kids? Lady, I'm taking your case pro bono, I have a five year old myself!" or something. Instead I got that no one really cared about that either, unless I had evidence already, and even then they didn't care too much.

[UnboxableMom]

I just have to moan and gripe about this some more.

My kid called me again today, begging me to come get her. Begging me to make her dad see that spanking and slapping are hitting. Begging to come home. And the lovely agreement says she comes home a week before school starts. First time in my life I ever wanted summer to go ahead and end.

I'm going to remake all the calls tomorrow, asking CPS and the  lawyers at Legal Aid if I have any options at all. I expect the same 'sorry, that's perfectly legal' that I got last time, but I have to do something.

I'm so frustrated I don't know what to do. Sitting on the phone listening to your child cry and being unable to stop it is the most horrible experience ever.

[coffeegirl]

I know this is a very simple suggestion and possibly you've already tried it...but in case you haven't: have you thought about speaking with your ex about this? Because of the custody arrangement and all the time he wants to spend with the kids, it sounds like he does really love them. Maybe you could call and tell him that you need to have a serious talk...and then tell him (CALMLY and respectfully) exactly what you've told us, and with the same tone. I would studiously keep out anything that could be construed as judgement against how he or stepmom is raising their toddler. Just focus on what the kids have told you, how they feel, your older child's issues because of the teacher who yelled too much and how that sensitivity is being triggered by being at his dad's house, etc., etc. I would hope your ex would be concerned to hear about the extent that your kids live in fear and feel they have to walk on eggshells around him and their stepmom. If he loves them at all, I imagine he's not going to want them to feel like that.

Might be worth a try, before resorting to lawyers or CPS or anything else that'll probably only end in more bitterness. Especially because, as you've said, they aren't breaking any laws and aren't hitting your kids. Reading what your young daughter says and how she says it, I imagine it'd be very easy for him to make a case-- should this go to court-- that your daughter is simply parroting what you have told her and you've tried to "poison" her against him, etc.

[UnboxableMom]

He's not really a person that one does much talking to. I've tried to keep here to mentioning the things that are terrifying the kids, so I haven't gone into the things like how he threatened to rape me when I told him I was leaving him, or how he used to throw things around the house, or the emotional abuse that he used to keep me 'in line' for the eight years I was with him.

Honestly, the notion of talking to him terrifies me, which is probably a sign that it's something I really should try.

I *have* discussed it with him before, but only vaguely, when he had actually called to brag that I wouldn't be able to get a tax return because he had misused my name on his own and I was sure to get investigated for his debt and fraud. (He was also wrong about that, fortunately.)

He knows the kids don't want to be there, and he insists it's because the other kid, the toddler, "is a brat". He used to say it was because the toddler's (5 or 6yo) sister was "a brat" but she's not around to blame anymore. I don't know why she doesn't live there anymore, but she doesn't. (I should mention here I don't think there's such a thing as a 'brat', only a kid who needs a behavior corrected.) None of it could possibly be his fault.

But talking to him might be helpful, I don't know.

[umsami]

If you're not comfortable talking with him, how about a letter?

What about a DVD or something else which is less threatening?

Another option would be a gentle suggestion, like...oh, you know I know a lot of Mamas who rave about the 1-2-3 Magic technique with 2 year olds.  (Not my favorite--but it's a good transition IMHO for hitters... and it's easy for anybody to learn.)  Perhaps a copy of the book?

I think if you tell your kids that you'll try to talk to their Dad, but can't make any promises is the best you can do right now.  You can also help them express their feelings to their Dad.  So, maybe saying "Daddy, I'm afraid when I see you do this...." or "Daddy, I love you, but when you yell, it makes me think you don't love me or that I'm not safe...or whatever..."  If you google non-violent communication, you should be able to find a lot on Youtube and online for free. :)