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post #21 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrothnwu View Post

"If the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood?" Noo, you're not derailing the thread at all. I guess you must be opposed to all blood testing on your children, then, because they take far more blood from a child than a circumcision, which is done after eight days in Jewish tradition, by the way. Have you ever seen a circumcision done? It's not "cosmetic" and it's not bloody.

And your judgmental attitude is not appreciated. This is an individual decision for every family, and I'd expect more respect on this site and this thread, in particular.


I see you are new here.. welcome to MDC. That said, we have strong forum called The Case Against Circumcision. Many moms here leave their sons intact!joy.gif
post #22 of 39
Thread Starter 



Philomom, you are correct that the medical reasons for performing circumcision are spotty at best. And, if I understand you correctly, you are not Jewish, therefore are not required to circumcise your children, EVEN IF their father was raised Reform Jewish. Furthermore, you have made an active decision to not raise your children Jewish but instead as agnostics (which, actually doesn't address the issue of Judaism as something beyond a religion, which it is. It's an ethnicity, it's a culture, language, race, religion, Tribe, etc...) Again, I have no problem with this because Halachic Judaism (Jewish Law) has no problem with this, as your children are not Jewish. They may have a Jewish father, but they are not Jews and therefore, unless they choose this life for themselves as adults or you choose this life for yourself by converting yourself and them and then practicing Judaism, there is no need for any argument or discussion. Circumcision, for you, is a matter of the medical and not the religious (unless you are are one of the certain branches of Muslim faith that also requires circumcision, which you've already stated that you are not), in which case I would tend to agree with you. THere is no medical reason to do this. And all sorts of reasons (medical and otherwise) against doing this, so your choice seems like a good, compassionate, well-informed and sound one. I'm sorry your in-laws were not more supportive. In laws can be very VERY difficult (I speak with empathy. :) )

Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post



Not to completely de-rail this thread but you won't find any medical organization out there that recommends circ... except for the CDC. The three African studies they base their stance on are flawed. The AMA, the AAP and many others say no to this cosmetic surgery.

My husband was raised Reform Jewish and we are raising our kids agnostic. My husband was happy to leave his son intact, even if my in-laws weren't. And as far as the natural childbirth angle.. why avoid drugs and eat healthy for nine months, have a natural drug free birth and plan to breastfeed.. if the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood? Makes no sense whatsoever. We are meant as mothers, to protect our children from harm and circumcision causes harm.


 


Irothnwu, You are correct that this comment about spilling innocent blood is completely out of line on a Jewish Thread. You are also correct that more blood is taken from a newborn in blood testing than in a Jewish circumcision. You are also correct that a circumcision performed on the 8th day is quite a different matter than many ric (routine infant circs) performed within the first 3 days in a hospital. It is different from a Vit K standpoint (clotting factor) and health stand point. Also they are performed entirely differently. All correct. You are also correct that this anti-ric talk has no place here because there is no conversation taking place about RIC on this thread. This is a religious circumcision, which is another matter entirely.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrothnwu View Post

"If the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood?" Noo, you're not derailing the thread at all. I guess you must be opposed to all blood testing on your children, then, because they take far more blood from a child than a circumcision, which is done after eight days in Jewish tradition, by the way. Have you ever seen a circumcision done? It's not "cosmetic" and it's not bloody.

And your judgmental attitude is not appreciated. This is an individual decision for every family, and I'd expect more respect on this site and this thread, in particular.



Au Contrare, Philomom...those who have been around these parts (Mothering) for a very long time know quite well that while MDC is AGAINST RIC...there has been extreme measures taken to avoid taking a position against religious circumcision. The Case Against Circumcision is SPECIFICALLY for RIC and it is forbidden to attack people for circumcision based on religious belief.

 

Many moms DO leave their sons intact here at MDC. This is wonderful and I support it. I'm a big lactivist. I do not believe in RIC for all of the reasons on that forum and more and I support you and your decision and your cause for likely all of the same reasons...that being said, and I realize that this is a very VERY difficult point to understand, but religious circumcision is NOT the same thing as RIC. Not in the slightest. Though it seems that it should be, since both involve cutting babies, both involve all of the issues that that brings...it is still not the same thing.

 

Your position, while absolutely wonderful regarding RIC and your own decision not to RIC your own son, is completely invalid and inappropriate on a thread of this nature. There is no place for it here and there is no parellel. If you would like to change mothering's rules regarding their policy on religious circumcision, I recommend that you write to them or perhaps begin a petition to try and make RIC and religious circumcision one and the same on the boards. I should mention that I would be absolutely against that, of course, but you are free to proceed as you see fit.

 

In the meanwhile, I WILL NOT tolerate and (neither will Mothering) attacks on religious circumsicion. It violates the rules here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post



I see you are new here.. welcome to MDC. That said, we have strong forum called The Case Against Circumcision. Many moms here leave their sons intact!joy.gif


 

post #23 of 39

Independent of the discussion about circumcision, jul511riv, I think you are violating the user agreement by asserting your own interpretation of Judaism as the only legitimate interpretation of Judaism.  You have indirectly suggested that I am not Jewish, that Philomom's family is not Jewish, and implied that Treemom’s family would not be Jewish. 

Your implication that Reform Jewish, Reconstructionist and perhaps Conservative sects of Judaisam are analogous to Jews for Jesus in that they use the term Jewish but don’t follow Jewish law is specious, exclusionary and unacceptable.  And, a clear violation of the user agreement which states that users may not “submit content that discriminates on the basis of age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion or disability.” 

 

You are presenting a version of Judaism that you embrace.  That is fine.  But it is not the only version of Judaism and it is totally unacceptable for you to repeatedly assert that it is the only LEGITIMATE version of Judaism. 

 

Reform Judaism, for example, places emphasis on individual Jews learning Torah and commentary, engaging in debate and struggling with religious texts and religious practices.  It encourages each individual to learn about Jewish laws and practices and struggle with the decisions of how to best fulfill the commandments.  Following Hillel, we are taught to treat others as we would wish to be treated and that “all the rest are commentary.” It is the obligation of ALL Jews, of all sects, to fulfill the obligation to treat others as we would wish to be treated.  It is a mitzvah to learn the commentary and struggle with the dilemmas it poses. 

 

I hold therefore, and in good company, that it is your obligation and my own to struggle with the conflicted ethical obligations raised by circumcision.  The commandment is given in Genesis and is part of the covenant of Abraham and g-d.  This is a weighty obligation.  Yet, Judaism, as I interpret it, does not allow the blind obedience of commandments but requires the questioning and struggling with them—it is my obligation as a Jew to determine if the obligation to protect innocence and do no harm weighs more heavily than the commandment to circumcise.  I do not propose that I can answer the question for anyone else.  But, I believe—as part of my religion—that it is my ethical, moral and religious obligation to study and reflect on what is the right choice. 

 

I would appreciate no further condemnation of my religious beliefs in this thread.   Judaism is a diverse and vibrant religion which thrives on diversity of opinions and interpretations (hence the fact that there are so many commentary).  There is no one authority that can speak for all of Judaism and I would thank you, jul511riv, to cease acting as the authority.  I welcome your opinions and thoughts, but please state them as such in future messages. 

post #24 of 39

... and i am not jewish so i don't have a dog in this fight BUT my concern is that circumcision was broached initially not only from a religious standpoint but that a poster stated that it was medically preferable.  i call foul on that aspect of the conversation.  it's a completely different thing to do this (in my view) as part of the way that you interpret your religion but a whole nother thing when you say it's "cleaner" or "medically better" or whatever.  that i disagree with absolutely and i think that at least that part of the mod policy backs that up.

post #25 of 39
Thread Starter 



The mod policy DOES back that part up. As do I, as you will see from my post. It is going beyond that that is not supported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post

... and i am not jewish so i don't have a dog in this fight BUT my concern is that circumcision was broached initially not only from a religious standpoint but that a poster stated that it was medically preferable.  i call foul on that aspect of the conversation.  it's a completely different thing to do this (in my view) as part of the way that you interpret your religion but a whole nother thing when you say it's "cleaner" or "medically better" or whatever.  that i disagree with absolutely and i think that at least that part of the mod policy backs that up.



 

post #26 of 39

The sanctimoniousness on this thread is thick enough to cut with a knife. Enough people! There are enough interpretations of Judaism to fill a library. Most of them disagree with each other, but that is the nature of Judaism - we like to disagree. What works for one person as a belief system is not what works for other families as a belief system. Lets all try to remember that as we struggle to find the right answers for our families. Jul511riv, despite the sanctimoniousness, makes some good points regarding circumcision - religious circumcision is an entirely different issue than routine infant circumcision. Thus, if your family is Jewish, but not completely traditionally "halachically" Jewish in the strictest interpretation of the law, then it may make sense for your sons to remain intact, or to do a Brit Shalom (which is spritual circumcision but not physical circumcision). Is this the right path for all mixed-religion families in the Conservative/Reform communities? Of course not! There is no right answer for every family. But I think the point that Jul511riv was trying to make is that its 100% OK to leave a son intact if your Jewish identity does not tend to revolve around strict following of the commandments in the Torah.This is a valuable point. I don't agree with the rest of her diatribe on who is Jewish and who is not (as even though I may agree with some of her points, I don't appreciate the attitude, as I don't perport to be able to speak for anyone but myself). Lets keep in mind that this is a Jewish thread - so please be respectful of the Jewish views on circumcision. But lets also please be respectful of all branches of Judaism. There are so few of us on MDC it would be a shame to have a rift.

post #27 of 39
Thread Starter 



Parsley,

 

Your religion has never been attacked. I have asserted that Jewish Law is completely clear about certain issues and for that there is no question. Notice I did not state ANYTHING about your religion.

 

As for Hillel, the principle was "do not do that onto others which is hateful to you". Christianity has the "Golden Rule" of "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

 

And for the record, the ascertation that Orthodox Judaism blindly accepts laws without question is certainly a falsehood, which I am happy to correct. Many Orthodox Jews struggle with Jewish Law and therefore are encouraged to study, CONTINUALLY, with experts in Jewish Law until the understanding of the law becomes clear for them. This would be as opposed to saying "I don't agree with it..do you? No. Okay, let's chuck it out. It must be wrong." Or even taking Rabbi's words out of context to support an argument that a rabbi would have never agreed to. In Jewish Law we must struggle with the issues IN THE CONTEXT OF JEWISH LAW. That is the basis of the Judaism that contains thousands of years of history.

 

You are correct that Judaism is a diverse and vibrant religion...yes, even in the context of following Jewish Law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsley View Post

Independent of the discussion about circumcision, jul511riv, I think you are violating the user agreement by asserting your own interpretation of Judaism as the only legitimate interpretation of Judaism.  You have indirectly suggested that I am not Jewish, that Philomom's family is not Jewish, and implied that Treemom’s family would not be Jewish. 

Your implication that Reform Jewish, Reconstructionist and perhaps Conservative sects of Judaisam are analogous to Jews for Jesus in that they use the term Jewish but don’t follow Jewish law is specious, exclusionary and unacceptable.  And, a clear violation of the user agreement which states that users may not “submit content that discriminates on the basis of age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion or disability.” 

 

You are presenting a version of Judaism that you embrace.  That is fine.  But it is not the only version of Judaism and it is totally unacceptable for you to repeatedly assert that it is the only LEGITIMATE version of Judaism. 

 

Reform Judaism, for example, places emphasis on individual Jews learning Torah and commentary, engaging in debate and struggling with religious texts and religious practices.  It encourages each individual to learn about Jewish laws and practices and struggle with the decisions of how to best fulfill the commandments.  Following Hillel, we are taught to treat others as we would wish to be treated and that “all the rest are commentary.” It is the obligation of ALL Jews, of all sects, to fulfill the obligation to treat others as we would wish to be treated.  It is a mitzvah to learn the commentary and struggle with the dilemmas it poses. 

 

I hold therefore, and in good company, that it is your obligation and my own to struggle with the conflicted ethical obligations raised by circumcision.  The commandment is given in Genesis and is part of the covenant of Abraham and g-d.  This is a weighty obligation.  Yet, Judaism, as I interpret it, does not allow the blind obedience of commandments but requires the questioning and struggling with them—it is my obligation as a Jew to determine if the obligation to protect innocence and do no harm weighs more heavily than the commandment to circumcise.  I do not propose that I can answer the question for anyone else.  But, I believe—as part of my religion—that it is my ethical, moral and religious obligation to study and reflect on what is the right choice. 

 

I would appreciate no further condemnation of my religious beliefs in this thread.   Judaism is a diverse and vibrant religion which thrives on diversity of opinions and interpretations (hence the fact that there are so many commentary).  There is no one authority that can speak for all of Judaism and I would thank you, jul511riv, to cease acting as the authority.  I welcome your opinions and thoughts, but please state them as such in future messages. 



 

post #28 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post

... and i am not jewish so i don't have a dog in this fight BUT my concern is that circumcision was broached initially not only from a religious standpoint but that a poster stated that it was medically preferable.  i call foul on that aspect of the conversation.  it's a completely different thing to do this (in my view) as part of the way that you interpret your religion but a whole nother thing when you say it's "cleaner" or "medically better" or whatever.  that i disagree with absolutely and i think that at least that part of the mod policy backs that up.


Yep, that's what I was reacting to. .. the broad assertion that circ was somehow "better".

And to be clear, the Jewish circ is not magically bloodless.... I've got enough friends and in-laws that are Jewish now that I do know this first hand.
post #29 of 39
Thread Starter 



No one said it was bloodless, though sometimes it is, which is why the Halacha requires one drop of blood to consider the brit complete. But again, as far as ric, you and I are in total agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post



Yep, that's what I was reacting to. .. the broad assertion that circ was somehow "better".

And to be clear, the Jewish circ is not magically bloodless.... I've got enough friends and in-laws that are Jewish now that I do know this first hand.


 

post #30 of 39
Thread Starter 

And since you know first hand about brit milah, you would be the first to know about the major differences between RIC and brit milah. :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post



Yep, that's what I was reacting to. .. the broad assertion that circ was somehow "better".

And to be clear, the Jewish circ is not magically bloodless.... I've got enough friends and in-laws that are Jewish now that I do know this first hand.


 

post #31 of 39

We're Jewish! :D 

 

 

My DS is 19 months and i'm due with #2 in August! 

 

 

post #32 of 39
Thread Starter 

b'sha'ah tovah!

post #33 of 39

I am Jewish, but my DH is not and in fact is not a fan of religion in general. He doesn't stop me from practicing the way'I would like to do so. We plan on doing a welcoming ceremony (non-religious version of a naming ceremony I guess) in place of either a Brit or a Naming. It's not exactly the same, but it is the same idea, recognizing how special this new life is in our world and in the world in general. Not sure if it is a boy or girl yet. I will not get into my personal reasons for being a Jewish momma that is not a fan of circumcision as I have already seen quite a few statements that appear to attack others. I have already discussed this fact with my parents who are actually more supportive than I expected. If things become more respectful as the thread goes on, I would be happy to share. Also, I'm not due in February, I'm due in July, but didn't see a similar thread there.

post #34 of 39

You gotta do what you gotta do as a mama yanno?

 

I've found motherhood is one of those things that has led me to actually get a thicker skin.

 

Your decisions for your family are the best decisions for your family. My decisions for mine are the best for mine. You just have to let other people's opinions not get to you. Whether you're a religious Jew that decides to give the kid a bris, a humanist Jew who isn't too keen on it, or married to a Jew and feels that its not an option. There are SO many different people in the world that if we all were the same it would be a sad, lonely place to be. 

 

 

I appreciate hearing other's opinions on the topic. I am definately not a fan of RIC at ALL, but when its religious? Its a different kettle of fish.

 

 

I am going to choose not to say what we decided for our family simply for my son's privacy's sake. His "equipment" is his, and his dr's business. (I don't say this to be bitchy, but that's just how I feel)  

 

No matter what you do as a mama, you're gonna get judgement heaped upon you.

 

G-d FORBID you breastfeed past 6 months. Holy crap. You'd think I murdered someone in my living room! I've lost friends over the fact that I'm nursing, still and I'm terrified to mention the fact that I'm pregnant again, as I'm sure the judgement is going to go NUTS. Dear G-d, breastfeeding a TODDLER, but breastfeeding a TODDLER WHILE PREGNANT, holy crap, i'm in for a sh*tstorm!

 

post #35 of 39
Thread Starter 

That's what Mothering was about...supporting those decisions that are a bit off the beaten path. It's such a shame that the magazine doesn't exist anymore. :(

 

How is everyone's preparations for Chanukah going? I still don't feel recovered from Tishray! We have a chanukah birthday and a rosh chodesh kislev birthday so it's been busy. I finally got around to taking my daughter out for our regular Rosh Chodesh outting this evening. Yes, it was belated...but it was the earliest I could get her out.

 

I had planned on making cut out cookies in the various shapes of the moon (cut out circles but "black out" some parts with chocolate sprinkles and leave the rest frosted white), but I just can't seem to get it together to make them. Anyone else do anything fun for Chanukah or Rosh Chodesh that they might like to share. I'm always looking for some good ideas. "Craftyness" doesn't come naturally to me.

post #36 of 39
I'm making homemade donuts with chocolate ganache and marshmallow fluff filling. We don't do a dessert often. I'm gonna have to hunt down my cake making supplies to find the pastry tip to put the filling in.

Most of the kid's gifts are purchased, I still need to grab some duplo blocks and a set of dishes for his pretend kitchen we got him
post #37 of 39

I haven't made any Chanukah plans yet, but I'm thinking about it. I will probably go to the Shabbat group's celebration, but beyond that I'm not sure yet. 

post #38 of 39
Thread Starter 

Would you be willing to share your recipe, pretty please? Do you think I could recreate it in Israel...no marshmallow fluff here.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetchotchkes View Post

I'm making homemade donuts with chocolate ganache and marshmallow fluff filling. We don't do a dessert often. I'm gonna have to hunt down my cake making supplies to find the pastry tip to put the filling in.
Most of the kid's gifts are purchased, I still need to grab some duplo blocks and a set of dishes for his pretend kitchen we got him


 

post #39 of 39

I'm pretty sure you can, its just like, yeast flour and basic baking ingredients (I don't' live in Israel though, i'm in the Chicago area). 

 

I'll post it as soon as I find the magazine its in. (hobby Farm Homes) 

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