Friend that Vax! Ugh!

[BenimBebek]

So, I came out of the non-vax closet about 2 years ago.  Its was my dirty secret and it just got to be too much.  Plus, I didn't want people to think I was ashamed of my choice.  Definitely not.  But EVER SINCE my husband and I have found that people who do vax are CONSTANTLY telling us things like this:

"Oh we just took our baby to their first check up and they got all their vaxes."

"Our baby has been screaming non-stop since his vaccines.  The doctor said it was normal."

"I just got the typhoid shot and my arm is killing me."

Etc. Etc. Etc.  What do they want to hear from us????  How do you guys handle annoying friends like this?  Are they trying to ask us WHY we dont vaccinate, just do they can convince themselves of why they should?  Or are they really concerned and looking for advice.

My best friend who is almost done pharmacy school keeps getting vaccines and doesnt bother READING about them.  She knows how important this issue is for me and I feel like she is taunting me almost with her, "I just got this vaccine and Im having ___ reaction."  First it was the flu shot... she got a terrible infection for months afterward (much worse than the flu) and swore she would never get that vax again.  Now its the stupid typhoid fever vaccine ("because Im going to Mexico and its recommended, but I said no to the Hep A vaccine, thats a self-limiting illness anyways and doesnt even lead to Hep.  I dont know why theres a vaccine for it.") and then she had a reaction where her whole arm is sore and shes complaining to me. 

I sent her the link to the package insert, as well as VAERS results showing the risks of the vaccine.  Then a link to the FDA stating that VAERS probably only has 1-10% of the actual events being reported to it.  Its really hilarious that there is a vaccine.  The risks of the vaccine FAR outweigh the minute chance of actually getting typhoid fever.  Its just hilarious.  And no one bothers looking into this stuff.  Its terrifying.  I mean, shes going to have an f-ing PharmD soon and she doesn't even know how to look this stuff up IN ADVANCE?

How do you guys handle this?  Its incredibly annoying!!!  It makes me want to have no friends that vax!!  Too bad I dont know anyone who doesnt!!  

[SilverMoon010]

I can see how you are confused as to why they tell you this stuff when they know your stance on the subject.  I honestly can't tell you why they feel comfortable talking to you about this in the first place when they know you don't vax!  Don't they know how to cater the conversation to the company they keep and hold back on talking about certain things?  Maybe they are just making conversation. I'm not really sure. OR maybe they DO want to hear from you and underneath are concerned about their baby's reaction to the vax.  But why won't they just come out and ask? Hard to say without being there and hearing them actually talk about it.  Sometimes you can tell if someone is trying to pull information out of ya or are simply just absent-minded and seem to forget who they are talking to.

If these are people you are close to and if they continue to talk about this to you and you have been holding back your opinions on the issue, I would start to tell them how you feel. For example, if someone tells you their baby has been non-stop screaming after a vax and she/he is saying it's normal, I would have to open my mouth and say, "That doesn't really sound too normal to me." (I wouldn't do this with casual acquintances though.  I wouldn't even get into it with them.)  It all depends on how you feel about it. You can also just let it all go through one ear and out the other or change the subject really quick if it annoys you.  OR, your best option may be to use your "selective hearing" when they get like that if you feel they are really just being annoying and aren't seeking your advice.  Works like a charm

[BenimBebek]

Yeah right now I just say, "oh no, Im sorry to hear that.  I hope its better soon."  while im thinking, uh yeah your baby could be experiencing a common side effect know as encephalopathy that can caused a myriad of permanent damage to the brain.  nice job.  

[Chloebelle]

Since none of my existing friends have young kids (if at all), it's not an issue, and they all pretty much know my stance on modern medicine anyways. My sisters all vaxed their kids, and know that I don't, but they know I've done my research, and respect my decisions. Now that I'm meeting new moms through school and activities, I'm not sure how I'll approach it. I'll probably deal with every person differently. I'm not ashamed of my non-vax decisions, but I also feel it's personal, and I don't feel the need to necessarily tell anyone. 

Regarding your friends, you have to pick your battles. Perhaps try emailing a link or two relating to their situation if they ever complain about vaccine reactions again in the future as a friendly FYI.

[KayCSmommy]

I feel the same way, I am not ashamed of my decision to not (in my case stop) vaxing my son. I was however never in the closet about my decison, and most my family and friends or the ones who matter anyway know that my son is not fully vaxed. I actually don't get any grief except from a few family members. I just tell them ohh that is too bad that is why I stopped vaxing, because the fevers kept getting higher and lasting longer, until he finally had a sever vaccine reaction. My cousin had a sever reaction to the HPV vax, her arm swelled to twice the size it should be and was hard as a rock! I told her mother that she would be foolish to get the other two parts of the vax. She took her to the doctor and he said it was a normal reaction and that her daughter would be fine and gave her some pain killers like loratab or somthing similar for the pain she was experiencing. I told my cousins  family that they were a bunch of fools to put my (2nd) cousin through so much pain (but my aunt's sister and best friend is a very vax happy nurse)! Then when there was a measles epidemic (9 tested postive for Measles in May, and a couple more just a week or so ago) that the same family called me until I answered telling me my son needed to get the vax. I told them he didn't need it and I wasnt worried if he got it the Measles and they freaked. I just told them I wouldnt come around them if they didnt want, and I didnt for a while (its not like I go over to thier house a whole lot in the first place) and that is what I did. Most people don't have a problem with my decison, I have been harassed by dr's and other medical people, but my friends and family don't bug me like they do you. Maybe they are asking if you know why they are having the reactions they are or something? Maybe they want to know how you react to it? I have no idea!

[Maedze]

Encephalopathy is NOT  a common side effect of vaccines. It's exceedingly rare, and statistically essentially insignificant.  Good heavens.

The baby is probably yelling because the place around the injection is sore.  That happens when you get an injection.  It's no fun at all for anyone, but it's not dangerous. 

You sound like you would be glad if the baby had some sort of horrible disease.  
 

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

Yeah right now I just say, "oh no, Im sorry to hear that.  I hope its better soon."  while im thinking, uh yeah your baby could be experiencing a common side effect know as encephalopathy that can caused a myriad of permanent damage to the brain.  nice job.  

[SilverMoon010]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

Encephalopathy is NOT  a common side effect of vaccines. It's exceedingly rare, and statistically essentially insignificant.  Good heavens.

The baby is probably yelling because the place around the injection is sore.  That happens when you get an injection.  It's no fun at all for anyone, but it's not dangerous. 

You sound like you would be glad if the baby had some sort of horrible disease.  

Non-stop screaming is NOT normal and most likely indicates a moderate-to-severe reaction to the vaccine.  There's no way I would or ever could look at a non-stop screaming baby and think that is normal.  It IS dangerous because you have no idea what type of reaction that baby is experiencing, no matter how rare your statistics read.

[Maedze]

No, non-stop screaming of an incredibly high-pitched and unusual variety in combination with OTHER neurological symptoms *might* be a reaction.    And they're not "my" statistics.      A baby crying for a few days, even crying hard, is miserable for all concerned but is not dangerous.     You might as well look at a teen with pimples and suggest he likely has small pox.  Let's get some perspective here.  Millions of babies have vaccines.   Many of them feel bad for a few days.  Many of those feel really horrible.  And statistically NONE of them have severe reactions.   

Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 

Non-stop screaming is NOT normal and most likely indicates a moderate-to-severe reaction to the vaccine.  There's no way I would or ever could look at a non-stop screaming baby and think that is normal.  It IS dangerous because you have no idea what type of reaction that baby is experiencing, no matter how rare your statistics read.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

No, non-stop screaming of an incredibly high-pitched and unusual variety in combination with OTHER neurological symptoms *might* be a reaction.    And they're not "my" statistics.      A baby crying for a few days, even crying hard, is miserable for all concerned but is not dangerous.     You might as well look at a teen with pimples and suggest he likely has small pox.  Let's get some perspective here.  Millions of babies have vaccines.   Many of them feel bad for a few days.  Many of those feel really horrible.  And statistically NONE of them have severe reactions.   

Prove it. I'm so tired of the same lame party line that "statistically" these reactions are not adverse reactions because well why excatly - because the medical community declares them to be "normal".  Any person - I don't care who you are-  That says that any adverse reaction is not dangerous is just guessing frankly. There are not long term studies to point to. You have absolutely no idea if your child's high pithced screeching (which may very well be brain swelling) will cause long term issues years down the line or not. Since these connections are not ever considered or looked for, then of course they will never be found.

[Chloebelle]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

Prove it. I'm so tired of the same lame party line that "statistically" these reactions are not adverse reactions because well why excatly - because the medical community declares them to be "normal".  Any person - I don't care who you are-  That says that any adverse reaction is not dangerous is just guessing frankly. There are not long term studies to point to. You have absolutely no idea if your child's high pithced screeching (which may very well be brain swelling) will cause long term issues years down the line or not. Since these connections are not ever considered or looked for, then of course they will never be found.

ITA.

Who in their right mind would not be concerned if their baby all of a sudden was inconsolable and had a high pitched scream for days? Brainwashed much??? Sheesh.

[Marnica]

The vast majority of pediatricians and conventional medical personnel don't seem to be that concerned - after all it's a "normal" reaction. Just give them a little tylenol and all will be well.

 

Originally Posted by Chloebelle 

ITA.

Who in their right mind would not be concerned if their baby all of a sudden was inconsolable and had a high pitched scream for days? Brainwashed much??? Sheesh.

[Maedze]

*facepalm*

I don't know about you, but every baby I've ever met has been pretty miserable for a few days when it sustains a minor musculoskeletal injury.  Which is what an injection is.  They hurt.  Babies communicate by, among other things, crying.   If you pinched a baby and left a deep bruise, it would cry about that for a few days too.  (I don't, for the record, advocate baby-pinching.)

As far as proving it goes, it all ready has been proven.  Multiple times over.   

Thank science. 

[amnesiac]

Please remember that this subforum really isn't the appropriate place to debate vaccine issues in general. Those discussions are hosted in our Main Vax Forum.

While this would be the appropriate place to discuss how you, as a non-vaxing family, might respond and interact with people approaching you in this manner, "it is not a place to denigrate or criticize those who do vaccinate." Further discussion in that vein will be removed.

[Chloebelle]

Seriously? I would consider crying and fussing a "normal" reaction to a shot, but high pitched screaming? No. I don't care what "science" or any doctor tells me, that is NOT normal, and that child is in distress. *facepalm* 

 

[SilverMoon010]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

*facepalm*

I don't know about you, but every baby I've ever met has been pretty miserable for a few days when it sustains a minor musculoskeletal injury.  Which is what an injection is.  They hurt.  Babies communicate by, among other things, crying.   If you pinched a baby and left a deep bruise, it would cry about that for a few days too.  (I don't, for the record, advocate baby-pinching.)

As far as proving it goes, it all ready has been proven.  Multiple times over.   

Thank science. 

Just so misinformation does not get out there for those who vaccinate, persistent, non-stop, uncontrolled crying for more than 3 hours after the vaccine, paricularly a high-pitched scream, is given is completely abnormal and if your child/baby is doing that, you should call a healthcare provider ASAP or hospital and certainly research before that child gets another vaccine.  A baby should certainly not be crying for a few days. 
 

Edited by SilverMoon010 - 6/27/11 at 6:14pm

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

No, non-stop screaming of an incredibly high-pitched and unusual variety in combination with OTHER neurological symptoms *might* be a reaction.    And they're not "my" statistics.      A baby crying for a few days, even crying hard, is miserable for all concerned but is not dangerous.     You might as well look at a teen with pimples and suggest he likely has small pox.  Let's get some perspective here.  Millions of babies have vaccines.   Many of them feel bad for a few days.  Many of those feel really horrible.  And statistically NONE of them have severe reactions.   

None.  Wow - that is a new one.  Back it up, please.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by amnesiac 

Please remember that this subforum really isn't the appropriate place to debate vaccine issues in general. Those discussions are hosted in our Main Vax Forum.

While this would be the appropriate place to discuss how you, as a non-vaxing family, might respond and interact with people approaching you in this manner, "it is not a place to denigrate or criticize those who do vaccinate." Further discussion in that vein will be removed.

Thank you.

Given a recent experience on a pro-vax site that turned pretty ugly towards non-vaxxers fairly quickly, I am glad there is a place for non-vaxing families to discuss things.

[kathymuggle]

Op, if someone is complaining their kids arm hurts I would just offer sympathy.   That is all they are probably looking for.  If you sense they want to discuss vaccinating or not vaccinating in general (most don't) you could open the conversation.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

*facepalm*

I don't know about you, but every baby I've ever met has been pretty miserable for a few days when it sustains a minor musculoskeletal injury.  Which is what an injection is.  They hurt.  Babies communicate by, among other things, crying.   If you pinched a baby and left a deep bruise, it would cry about that for a few days too.  (I don't, for the record, advocate baby-pinching.)

As far as proving it goes, it all ready has been proven.  Multiple times over.   

Thank science. 

Nope - sorry. No matter how many times you repeat this - it simply is not the case. Im asking you to show proof that high pitched screaming in an infant post vaccination is "normal, is not an adverse reaction and does NO LONG TERM damage. The medical community at large repeating something ad nauseam does not constitute proof.

Nobody is disagreeing that babies will cry and fuss post vaccination for a little while because they are uncomfortable. What is being discussed here is prolonged high pitched screaming. It is not called the encepelatic scream for no reason.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

Nope - sorry. No matter how many times you repeat this - it simply is not the case. Im asking you to show proof that high pitched screaming in an infant post vaccination is "normal, is not an adverse reaction and does NO LONG TERM damage. The medical community at large repeating something ad nauseam does not constitute proof.

Nobody is disagreeing that babies will cry and fuss post vaccination for a little while because they are uncomfortable. What is being discussed here is prolonged high pitched screaming. It is not called the encepelatic scream for no reason.

Isn't that actually listed on the handout given to parents about one of the potential serious complications?  That if there is prolonged, high pitched screaming, to call the doctor?

Even the CDC says that happens in 1:1000 patients.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#dtap

Listed separately than "fussiness".