The UC from Hell - Page 3

[sunshinemoma]

     Quote:

Originally Posted by zoebird 

I don't know if it is lovely or not. it might have been for this mother. I like reading about pushing-less labors and births -- they do sound lovely overall. just because there may have been a massive tear at the end. . . doesn't mean that the labor and birth wasn't great until that point, KWIM?

I don't know, though. hey, sunshine, would you classify your birth as "hellish" because of the tear? or was the birth ok overall and you had this intense experience of surgery after?

Labour was great until I got to the hospital and all the interventions began.  The interventions were hellish.  It's what was done *to me* that I suffered frightening flashbacks about.  The tear itself did not seem to phase me...at first,  but as the days, weeks, and months wore on as I continued to realize the affects of the perineal trauma...physical recovery was long and tedious but, for me, the emotional trauma/flashbacks of the the doctor's violations intensified it.  If this friend exists I hope she has lots of support and empathy from everyone around her. 

Honestly, I don't think this story gives any valid reason to avoid homebirths/UC.  Also I don't think the OP can accurately say exactly why her friend tore so badly.  If she had been induced earlier, who knows, her baby may not have faired as well and there's no guarantee mom would have either.  Her baby might have been a few pounds smaller but the head circumference might have been just as large..she may have ended up with an episiotomy 4th degree and been even worse off.  Who knows?  Maybe she made the very best choice for her and baby...

[accountclosed3]

sunshine,

thanks for answering my question. I realized after asking it that you might not have had a UC, and your birth may have been 'hellish' otherwise from other causes, and so I'm sorry if my asking seemed too insensitive.

I'm also sorry that you did have such a hellish birth, the tear being the least hellish part of it all things considered, and that the healing of the tear a rather constant reminder of what did happen to you. 

I agree that I don't think that this story is enough to say "yes, this is a reason to avoid UC" any more than your tear is a reason to avoid interventions at a hospital per se. The experience of powerlessness and abuse around those interventions is certainly a strong cautionary tale, though, isn't it. Heartbreaking, truly. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

[sunshinemoma]

zoe, thanks for your thoughts.  I didn't take your question as being insensitive.  I think it's helpful to hear moms speak out.  I wish I had known before going through with my planned hospital birth how true it is that there is no guarantee.  There's no guarantee things will go just how you wish.  There is no guarantee caregivers will follow through with their promises.

I had a very pro-natural-birth doctor who assured me he would attend the birth regardless of whether he was on call or not.  The day I arrived at the hospital he was NOT on call.  He DID promptly show up but apparently thought he could harmlessly "hurry" things up.  (a phone call made during my labour and in my delivery room made it clear he had hoped to make it to his son's soccer game)

I had been naive and completely trusted that my "hands-off, pro-natural birth" doc would do only what was in my/my baby's best interest.  Not so :(  His invasive attempt (without my consent nor even giving me notice) to manually complete my dialation was just the beginning of a cascade of interventions including a non consented episiotomy.  After my son was born he said "I know that didn't go according to your birthplans, sorry"  Hmmm...

[accountclosed3]

wow, geez. all because he wanted to go to his son's soccer game. i am really sorry to hear it.

[sosurreal09]

What a horror story. I am terrified of hospitals for reasons like that. Everyone thought I was nuts for driving 2hrs to the birth center with my DD (next one will be at home I hope! I was 21 and too scared to home birth my first) but I could NOT go to the hospital. I knew I couldn't just trust anyone with control over my body. Heck I even kicked out my MW and nurse out for the majority of my labor...

I am so sorry you experienced that!

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by zoebird 

wow, geez. all because he wanted to go to his son's soccer game. i am really sorry to hear it.

This makes me so sad. What he did to you is sickening, sunshine, but what makes it even worse is that it was sort of motivated by his love for his son. Which doesn't excuse it at all, but just makes the whole situation so much sadder.

[lightinmyhands]

it's a silly and needless thing to argue with fools.  if this "professional RN" believes that she is right about birth and we are wrong, there is not going to be any changing her mind.  She seems awfully dogmatically positioned and that is her right.  It is also my right and responsibility as a mother to birth in the way that I feel is best for me and my baby, which for me is at home unassisted.  imo, it is wise to respond to her with utter silence.

[RMWT]

Long story short. 30 hr. labor 3 weeks past "due date" 10lb 2oz baby 21in. No tears, placenta looked great (kind of gross though) not alot of blood loss. I'm now on #7,  2nd UC.

 The major blood loss could be due to being anemic. I love Ronnie Falco's archives on gentlebirth.org.  Tons of midwife advice which is very contrary to any OBs advice. Any question you have you can probably find an answer on there. Alot of natural methods for just about everything. On post dates, I read sperm is absorbed 10x more easily in the gut than in the vagina and we all know sperm helps aid in softening things up and getting it prepared down there! My husband's loving that one! haha

BTW, my first UC was "hellish". But I'd do it again and again. Anything to keep me from the hospital!

[MJB]

Originally Posted by sunshinemoma 

     Quote:

Labour was great until I got to the hospital and all the interventions began.  The interventions were hellish.  It's what was done *to me* that I suffered frightening flashbacks about.  The tear itself did not seem to phase me...at first,  but as the days, weeks, and months wore on as I continued to realize the affects of the perineal trauma...physical recovery was long and tedious but, for me, the emotional trauma/flashbacks of the the doctor's violations intensified it.  If this friend exists I hope she has lots of support and empathy from everyone around her. 

Honestly, I don't think this story gives any valid reason to avoid homebirths/UC.  Also I don't think the OP can accurately say exactly why her friend tore so badly.  If she had been induced earlier, who knows, her baby may not have faired as well and there's no guarantee mom would have either.  Her baby might have been a few pounds smaller but the head circumference might have been just as large..she may have ended up with an episiotomy 4th degree and been even worse off.  Who knows?  Maybe she made the very best choice for her and baby...

One of the issues with "late" babies is that their skulls are less moldable. The fetal/infant skull becomes more ossified each week. 

I've had two unassisted homebirths, but there is NO WAY I would choose to UC (or homebirth) a postdates 15 lb. baby. I think it's insane to say you'd prefer a 4th degree tear and major hemorrhage (at home, nonetheless!) to a c-section. Yes, c-sections carry risks, but they are a lot lower than this specific scenario. 

And no, a midwife cannot stitch up a 4th degree tear at home. You need serious anesthetics and a surgeon for that. Preferably within an hour or two of birth. 

[LadyJennifer]

Sunshinemomma was the one saying that a 4th degree tear necessitates surgeon repair.
Whether you would feel comfortable with it or not, does not make it unsafe, or a bad choice for someone else. I would not say that c-sections carry less risks than this scenario. What risk factors are you considering? There are MANY risks (often unmentioned) in a cesaerean - which is major abdominal surgery.
 

Here are some risks of c-sections (taken from here)
Infection: Infection can occur at the incision site, in the uterus and in other pelvic organs such as the bladder.

• Hemorrhage or increased blood loss: There is more blood loss in a cesarean delivery than with a vaginal delivery. This can lead to anemia or a blood transfusion (1 to 6 women per 100 require a blood transfusion¹).
• Injury to organs: Possible injury to organs such as the bowel or bladder (2 per 100²).
• Adhesions: Scar tissue may form inside the pelvic region causing blockage and pain. This can also lead to future pregnancy complication such as placenta previa or placental abruption³.
• Extended hospital stay: After a cesarean, the normal time in the hospital is 3-5 days after giving birth if there are no complications.
• Extended recovery time: The amount of time needed for recovery after a cesarean can extend from weeks to months, having an impact on bonding time with your baby (1 in 14 report incisional pain six months or more after surgery⁴).
• Reactions to medications: There can be a negative reaction to the anesthesia given during a cesarean or reaction to pain medication given after the procedure.
• Risk of additional surgeries: Such as hysterectomy, bladder repair or another cesarean.
• Maternal mortality: The maternal mortality rate for a cesarean is greater than with a vaginal birth.
• Emotional reactions: Women who have a cesarean report feeling negatively about their birth experience and may have trouble with initial bonding with their baby⁵.

Risks and Complications for the Baby:

• Premature birth: If gestational age was not calculated correctly, a baby delivered by cesarean could be delivered too early and be low birth weight⁶.
• Breathing problems: When delivered by cesarean, a baby is more likely to have breathing and respiratory difficulties. Some studies show an increased need for assistance with breathing and immediate care after a cesarean than with a vaginal delivery⁷.
• Low APGAR scores: Low APGAR scores can be the result of anesthesia, fetal distress before the delivery or lack of stimulation during delivery (vaginal birth provides natural stimulation to the baby while in the birth canal). Babies born by cesarean are 50% more likely to have lower APGAR scores than those born vaginally⁸.
• Fetal injury: Very rarely, the baby may be nicked or cut during the incision (1 to 2 babies per 100 will be cut during the surgery⁹).

Not to mention the risk of embolism, which can be fatal.

Originally Posted by MJB 

One of the issues with "late" babies is that their skulls are less moldable. The fetal/infant skull becomes more ossified each week. 

I've had two unassisted homebirths, but there is NO WAY I would choose to UC (or homebirth) a postdates 15 lb. baby. I think it's insane to say you'd prefer a 4th degree tear and major hemorrhage (at home, nonetheless!) to a c-section. Yes, c-sections carry risks, but they are a lot lower than this specific scenario. 

And no, a midwife cannot stitch up a 4th degree tear at home. You need serious anesthetics and a surgeon for that. Preferably within an hour or two of birth. 

[obdoc]

Originally Posted by zoebird 

Sadly, Leahestey's statement is a reason why many women are choosing UC who would prefer not to.

As a UCer, I would prefer that women choose UC because they want to, not because they feel that they have to.

In the current system, you have options, but they are limited. If you go post dates, it's an automatic induction. If your baby is breech at a certain week's sonogram, it's an automatic c-section. Many women do not want these things, and would prefer to take a more relaxed our even cautious approach to these interventions. THey may ultimately decide that, yes, an induction or c-section is absolutely the right thing to do  (and a UCer supports that too!), but being told it's automatic is not the appropriate behavior on the part of the doctor. Then, the woman doesn't have a choice.

Or rather, she does. Refuse the intervention and thereby get "dropped" from care (doctor refuses to care for her), which means she MUST get a UC. Midwives may or may not take her at this point (many won't -- for very real reasons regarding insurance, lawsuits, etc). The only way that she can decide for herself is to UC.

We talk a lot about "informed consent" in and around the medical world, but it's rare that a woman who is pregnant is actually *allowed* to *consent*. She is told "this is what we are doing" and sometimes "this is what we did" when it's after the fact (common, apparently with episiotomies and also with labor enhancing drugs). 

In my opinion, this is a *massive* violation of a woman's choice in how to care for herself and her infant.

But it's also a huge disservice to her "do what we say, or you are forced to do it on your own." I don't want women "forced" to UC -- I want them getting the care that they want, which includes going to a hospital to birth if they feel that is safest for them! But *doctors* are refusing women this.

The UC movement grows in two ways. First, the positive -- women looking at it and deciding it is what is right for them (this was my method), and second, women who have no other options. I do not want it to grow because of this second group. I want women to get care! Real, honest to goodness care.

I spend my time trying to explain to women that episiotomy is NOT better than a small natural tear.  It's a hard sell. 

I give out information in circumcision and most don't bother to read it.

If I had a majority of women who cared about decision making---it would make MY job more pleasant---but the last 2 babies I delivered have been apprehended by the state and placed in care  due to withdrawal from drugs.   Children's Hospital in Knoxville is closed AGAIN for about he SIXTH time this year---no more room for babies  due to the drug issue!!!   35 % test positive---for THC, benzos, opiates, roxy oxy---then on top of that they smoke and drink Mountain Dew all day---those kids go through drug and caffeine withdrawal---can you imagine the headache!

I have done 4 breeches on primips this year--and now have a 39week 5 day primip out there who is breech---so I am hanging around town this weekend and swapped my call ---taking a holiday weekend to put my patient first--sacrificing my long weekend---so she can have a shot at vaginal delivery.

CARE!!!!    REAL HONEST TO GOODNESS CARE!!!    I really don't think that UC is the only option----I think that option is driven  because of crappy health insurance.

[accountclosed3]

yeah, well, don't get me started on the health insurance issue. massive disservice to choice!

middle part a basic non-sequitor in regards to UC. yes, there are a lot of women in the world who are not taking care of themselves or their infants. But for women who do, many of them are not afforded choice due to laws, regulations, hospital policies, insurance (both liability from the doc/hospital and health insurance companies), doctors/clinic/midwife/birth center policies, etc.

I grant you that I don't think it needs to be a free for all, woman makes the whole decision. I'm ok with doctors, midwives, etc, having policies. BUT, i wish more of it were evidence based, not just shot in the dark stuff.

I do think that there are good doctors out there (i know several), but unfortunately they are getting harder to find. In PA, where I birthed, one of the best OBs I've ever met was forced out of the state based on local regulations and the hospital's policies. THey told her that if she didn't increase her c-section rate up to X%, then she would loose her privs. But, she felt that it would go against the care that was required of her patients (an unnecessary c-section), and ultimately lost her practice and had to move to another state. Frustrating all around.

And personally, it would cost health care insurance, etc, a lot *less* if we took the midwifery model of care. I live in NZ now, and midwifery is the standard. You can choose a doctor, and some are automatically risked out, but everyone is assigned a midwife at first. You can choose home or hospital birth (rural are usually homebirths anyway, and much of NZ is rural btw). The care system for pregnancy, birth, and children is entirely socialized -- so the government definitely wants to keep costs down. And, it works. Care here is really excellent for women and children (and there is 1 year of care after the birth that helps as well), and it's great.

Anyway, that's another non-sequitor.

[mmaramba]

Ah, your friend finally posted her perspective!  Very good.

I found this post after I happened upon your friend's birth story...

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1319658/my-pov-of-my-uc-from-hell

Not to repeat myself, but... I find it fascinating that both you and your friend fail to use paragraph breaks and use single quotes (' instead of ") around everything but spoken words.  Lots of parentheticals as well, and you both use semi-colons frequently-- both things are not impossibly rare, but certainly distinctive.  You both put periods outside of quotes as well.

You must be very close.     

[greenmama66]

Originally Posted by mmaramba 

Ah, your friend finally posted her perspective!  Very good.

I found this post after I happened upon your friend's birth story...

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1319658/my-pov-of-my-uc-from-hell

Not to repeat myself, but... I find it fascinating that both you and your friend fail to use paragraph breaks and use single quotes (' instead of ") around everything but spoken words.  Lots of parentheticals as well, and you both use semi-colons frequently-- both things are not impossibly rare, but certainly distinctive.  You both put periods outside of quotes as well.

You must be very close.     

Something is rotten in Denmark........

[sosurreal09]

Seriously and she has 1 post you would think someone who is all about UC would have been a member for a while....

Also love the first line is that she "gave her permission to tell her birth story and she's not far off" UMM I would be livid if people were posting about my birth. It is MY birth I don't need their perspective and I sure as heck would not want them making me "the poster child" for a "birth from hell". No thanks!

[greenmama66]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

Seriously and she has 1 post you would think someone who is all about UC would have been a member for a while....

Also love the first line is that she "gave her permission to tell her birth story and she's not far off" UMM I would be livid if people were posting about my birth. It is MY birth I don't need their perspective and I sure as heck would not want them making me "the poster child" for a "birth from hell". No thanks!

It's a fairy tale of a story designed to scare people IMO. I don't take the story seriously at all as mean as that sounds- too many loopholes.

[LadyJennifer]

I can't access it....
 

Originally Posted by mmaramba 

Ah, your friend finally posted her perspective!  Very good.

I found this post after I happened upon your friend's birth story...

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1319658/my-pov-of-my-uc-from-hell

Not to repeat myself, but... I find it fascinating that both you and your friend fail to use paragraph breaks and use single quotes (' instead of ") around everything but spoken words.  Lots of parentheticals as well, and you both use semi-colons frequently-- both things are not impossibly rare, but certainly distinctive.  You both put periods outside of quotes as well.

You must be very close.     

[lightinmyhands]

i tend to keep quite about UCing as I find most people live in a world of fear and make their decisions based on those fears (and for some reason they want to share their fearful world with everyone around them) and I personally do not want any part of that for my birthing experience. 

[Cynthia Mosher]

After doing a little checking we found hey kingsville and theRN share the same IP, same cookie, and same computer, which tells me this thread and "My POV of my UC 'from Hell' thread are suspicious in nature. So, I'm suspending those two accounts and contacting them. If they can provide some sort of evidence of this story and evidence of their separate identities I will return their access. If not then we'll know this is what it seems to be.

[jaylily]

Who writes "lol" at the end of serious phrases anyway.  "all I was seeing was the 'beauty' in that natural birth lol", "by this time I was bleeding like a slaughtered pig lol", and has things figured out that quickly after a birth...

Most UC'ers aren't against hospitals in the case of a true emergency.  And a 15 lb baby would make the news!