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Did you get to make any decisions in the hospital? - Page 3

post #41 of 96

But I still think that's unfair if the birth mother really wants circumcision for her child. It's unfair to lead her to believe that it will happen when the adoptive parents are actively trying to make sure it doesn't. I would hope that if the adoptive parents are really against circumcision, they would make that clear at the start. That way the expectant mother is able to choose a family that fits what she believes.

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

  "There is no decision to be made on behalf of the hospital staff about who gets to decide."

True. But there is, always, a decision made by clinicians as to how they are going to time elective medical procedures. A clinician who knows that delaying circ by one day would mean no circ might schedule things a little differently than a clinician who knows that both the birth and the adoptive parents are asking for circ. Remember, clinicians are also caught in a horrible ethical dilemma here, and they're increasingly aware of it. They must respect the legal parent's wishes. They must respect the child's human rights. These two ethical mandates collide more sharply with RIC than with almost anything else that happens in a hospital. OP may not have legal status until papers are signed, but that doesn't mean she should shut up. It just means she has to be realistic about the fact that circ may happen anyway.
 


 

post #42 of 96

 

"But I still think that's unfair if the birth mother really wants circumcision for her child. It's unfair to lead her to believe that it will happen when the adoptive parents are actively trying to make sure it doesn't."

 

It may well be unfair. This is one the few, few issues where I would see myself, as an adoptive parent OR a clinician attending to a child who will leave the hospital with adoptive parents, caught between a rock and a hard place on the fairness issue. Either way, somebody could get hurt. If the circ happens, somebody definitely gets badly hurt, and it's the utterly helpless somebody who has no choice about anything, so that's the somebody I'd choose to champion. But I do see why others feel differently. 

 

"I would hope that if the adoptive parents are really against circumcision, they would make that clear at the start."

 

I think that's a reasonable expectation, and I think that OP is going to be clear about that well in advance. And after all this wrangling, she's probably going to come back and report that the birthmother couldn't care less about circ. redface.gif

post #43 of 96
Thread Starter 

Well, you all will be happy to know that I have discussed this further with my DH and he has pretty much caved.  I was telling a friend of mine about my huge concern about circumcision and that DH wasn't totally on board. She told me that she figured that I had already worn him down and got my way (as tends to happen from time to time . . . ah hem).  Anyway- I e-mailed him a video of a circumcision.  He replied with, "I don't think that's how they do it anymore.  I think they just use a ring."  We talked more at dinner and he said, "Well even if I change my mind, what if e-mom really wants it."  I told him that I could deal with that, and I hope it doesn't come to that.  He said OK.  We talked some more and I think he's on my side now (and baby boy's side).  I'm happy that we can be a united front and not look like we are arguing about this in front of e-mom.  I know he still has some hesitations.

 

So, I'm still trying to get a hold of e-mom.  I know she is working out her hospital plan with her counselor (provided by our agency) and I can e-mail her and ask her how it's coming. 

 

In the state e-mom is in, she can sign TPR at anytime after birth.  E-dad can sign at anytime before or after birth.  Then there is a 10-day revocation period.  So, any of you who have been down this private adoption journey know that those 10 days are going to be nerve-wracking.

post #44 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post

  Once birthparents voluntarily terminate their rights, my understanding, and experience, is that this is an irrevocable decision. Perhaps this varies by state? I don't know.  That's why waiting periods for signing are important, however difficult they may be.  A plan in private adoption  is only a plan in as far as people have come together with wishes and intentions.  The reality of the plan is sometimes not felt until after the birth of the baby.

 

 

Gotchya.  Clearly different than surrogacy in that respect.  And again--I'm not encouraging that anyone rob a birthparent of their rights by any stretch.  I was looking for a legal, ethical, and mutually agreeable) way for this particular decision to be in the OP's hands.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

  "There is no decision to be made on behalf of the hospital staff about who gets to decide."

True. But there is, always, a decision made by clinicians as to how they are going to time elective medical procedures. A clinician who knows that delaying circ by one day would mean no circ might schedule things a little differently than a clinician who knows that both the birth and the adoptive parents are asking for circ. Remember, clinicians are also caught in a horrible ethical dilemma here, and they're increasingly aware of it. They must respect the legal parent's wishes. They must respect the child's human rights. These two ethical mandates collide more sharply with RIC than with almost anything else that happens in a hospital. OP may not have legal status until papers are signed, but that doesn't mean she should shut up. It just means she has to be realistic about the fact that circ may happen anyway.
 


Smithie, I seriously cannot even believe you're going to attempt to--in the same paragraph--try to explain how to manipulate the system to get what is wanted when it's not someone's right and pass it off as "ethics".

 

What you are describing in the way of a clinician not following through on the orders of someone who has the legal right to make the decision is NOT ETHICAL.  And to say that "they must respect the legal parent's wishes" and also say that they could NOT respect those wishes by delaying a day so that they could choose which wishes to respect is NOT ETHICAL.

 

Like it or not, in this country, circ. is a PARENT'S RIGHT.  Not a child's right.  And in this country it is the PARENT'S DECISION.  Not the child's decision.  There is no horrible ethical dilemma here other than the one you are painting about not abiding by the laws.  If someone doesn't like the laws, they can advocate to change them or live somewhere else.

 

The only thing I can agree with in the quote above is that the OP needs to speak up or accept it.  And I believe that she has already made that decision (to speak up, but accept it if it cannot be agreed upon).

 

post #45 of 96
Thread Starter 

I realize I didn't answer someone's question.  I have a conference call with our agency on Thursday to discuss the hospital plan.  We were waiting for e-mom to decide on her wishes for the hospital.

post #46 of 96


That's great!  I am glad for you guys that you were able to come to an agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

Well, you all will be happy to know that I have discussed this further with my DH and he has pretty much caved.  I was telling a friend of mine about my huge concern about circumcision and that DH wasn't totally on board. She told me that she figured that I had already worn him down and got my way (as tends to happen from time to time . . . ah hem).  Anyway- I e-mailed him a video of a circumcision.  He replied with, "I don't think that's how they do it anymore.  I think they just use a ring."  We talked more at dinner and he said, "Well even if I change my mind, what if e-mom really wants it."  I told him that I could deal with that, and I hope it doesn't come to that.  He said OK.  We talked some more and I think he's on my side now (and baby boy's side).  I'm happy that we can be a united front and not look like we are arguing about this in front of e-mom.  I know he still has some hesitations.

 

 

post #47 of 96


Quote:

Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

Only the hospital staff can decide which mom's wishes carry the most weight in this, and I'm saying that OP's job is to make her wishes clear, not to pitch a hissy in the nursery and try to enforce her will. Many clinicians loathe circ and would welcome some input that could help them avoid doing one. 
That is simply untrue. The potential adoptive mom is not one of two moms at the time the baby is born, and she has no legal right to have any say whatsoever on whether the child will be circumcised.
post #48 of 96

I think someone here got it exactly right: It is neither your decision nor your dh's. It should be the decision of the person to whom the penis belongs. He can have it done later, if he so wishes. I would, also, put my foot down on this one. No way would my husband get to decide something this irreversible. (He can ask my husband how much time and work it takes to try to reverse a dumb decision made by his parents... and me what I think of it all as the wife...)

 

Frankly, I do not understand any woman who says "I let my dh decide this one." The beauty of the whole thing is that it is possible to let the child decide, as there is no benefit to having it done (other than, maybe, to support the masculinity of the circed dad or something equally sad).

 

post #49 of 96

Actually, it's the decision of the parent who has custody of the child at the time, whether one thinks it's bad thing or not.  And for the first few days, that decision is of the birth mother.   A one day old can not make that decision.  I say that as an adoptive parent and as an avid non-circer.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessTraveledBy View Post

I think someone here got it exactly right: It is neither your decision nor your dh's. It should be the decision of the person to whom the penis belongs. He can have it done later, if he so wishes. I would, also, put my foot down on this one. No way would my husband get to decide something this irreversible. (He can ask my husband how much time and work it takes to try to reverse a dumb decision made by his parents... and me what I think of it all as the wife...)

 

Frankly, I do not understand any woman who says "I let my dh decide this one." The beauty of the whole thing is that it is possible to let the child decide, as there is no benefit to having it done (other than, maybe, to support the masculinity of the circed dad or something equally sad).

 



 

post #50 of 96

You can also tell your husband that if it is important to the adopted child to be circumsized, he can arrange for the procedure when he is older. I know of a teenage boy that elected to have the procedure done after his parents had not. He was in bed for a week, but I guess he was happy.crap.gif

post #51 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

I'm just curious.  We're less than three weeks away from our little guy's due date and I'm starting to stress about the hospital.  We've already been warned that the social workers at the hospital may not be very friendly with adoptive parents.  The two major things I'm wondering about are the HepB vaccine (we are non-vaxers) and circumcision.  Despite the fear of being flamed, I am really against circumcision, but my husband wants it.  My stomach is literally upset just thinking about it and I can't seem to change his mind.  So, I guess this is a double question.  If your DH was pro-circ, how did you change his mind?  My DH is being so stubborn about it and he is never like this in general.  Ugh.  

 

Hello...sorry you're so worried about the circ question.  I can totally relate!  I just never saw the *point* of circumcision.  It always seemed to me that the bit of foreskin is there for a reason, and so many men of this world have one, no problems!  My husband really wanted to keep our son intact.  Our conversations always remained calm and rational.  There were a few things I reminded my husband of repeatedly, that he took into account.  

(1)  I appealed to his spiritual/religious side:  Foreskin was put there for a reason.  

(2)  Some of our friends/family are intact and they have normal sex lives and women who love them - or are very interested.  (One of his concerns was that potential mates would be turned off an uncut penis.)  

(3)  It's becoming quite common for parents to leave their sons intact.  (50% is a commonly accepted percentage of parents choosing to leave the penis alone.)  That helped ease my husband's mind when he was afraid our DH would be the "odd man out in the locker room."  Chances are he won't be.  (And I'm not sure boys compare their penises.  I don't remember comparing vaginas, although I digress.) 
 

I know reasons 2 and 3 are part of the "everyone" else is doing it, so we should too rationale.  And that's kind of shallow.  But it's true!  When certain friends and I talk about it, they spout out ridiculous reasons to circ.  Or they at best are ambivalent.  Without being harsh with them, I just stick to my above reasons when we talk about circ.  

 

My husband finally agreed to leave DS' penis alone on the second day of life!  Yikes!  Talk about waiting until the last minute.  Have faith!  :)

 

Regarding Hep B:  If it's up to you, directly and sweetly (sweetness goes a LONG way) decline with no apologies.  That should be it, no more discussion.  (That was my experience, anyway.)

 

An early congratulations to you!  I hope you're able to enjoy this amazing time.

 

post #52 of 96

YIKES:  Correction - my DH initially wanted circumcision for our son.  (Tired!)  redface.gif

post #53 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

Well, you all will be happy to know that I have discussed this further with my DH and he has pretty much caved.  I was telling a friend of mine about my huge concern about circumcision and that DH wasn't totally on board. She told me that she figured that I had already worn him down and got my way (as tends to happen from time to time . . . ah hem).  Anyway- I e-mailed him a video of a circumcision.  He replied with, "I don't think that's how they do it anymore.  I think they just use a ring."  We talked more at dinner and he said, "Well even if I change my mind, what if e-mom really wants it."  I told him that I could deal with that, and I hope it doesn't come to that.  He said OK.  We talked some more and I think he's on my side now (and baby boy's side).  I'm happy that we can be a united front and not look like we are arguing about this in front of e-mom.  I know he still has some hesitations.

 

So, I'm still trying to get a hold of e-mom.  I know she is working out her hospital plan with her counselor (provided by our agency) and I can e-mail her and ask her how it's coming. 

 

In the state e-mom is in, she can sign TPR at anytime after birth.  E-dad can sign at anytime before or after birth.  Then there is a 10-day revocation period.  So, any of you who have been down this private adoption journey know that those 10 days are going to be nerve-wracking.


Sweet relief!  (Clearly I should have read the whole thread first.  But I do relate to that part of your experience.)

 

post #54 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllyRae View Post

Actually, it's the decision of the parent who has custody of the child at the time, whether one thinks it's bad thing or not.  And for the first few days, that decision is of the birth mother.   A one day old can not make that decision.  I say that as an adoptive parent and as an avid non-circer.
 

Yes, I understand this. I was simply commenting on the op's situation with her husband. I don't see her husband as ever having the right to insist on circing, even after adoption has taken place.
 

 

post #55 of 96
Thread Starter 

So, I converted my husband and he supports intact now, but the birthmom did say that she definitely wants circumcision in her birth plan. greensad.gif  I was instructed by the agency to let them talk to her about it, because they don't want it to cause a division between myself and the e-mom.  They are going to use my main points and see how seriously e-mom cares about the circumcision.  I'm sad.

post #56 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

So, I converted my husband and he supports intact now, but the birthmom did say that she definitely wants circumcision in her birth plan. greensad.gif  I was instructed by the agency to let them talk to her about it, because they don't want it to cause a division between myself and the e-mom.  They are going to use my main points and see how seriously e-mom cares about the circumcision.  I'm sad.


 

I'm sorry to hear that news (happy about your dh though).  As a birth mom, I don't know that I agree with the agency here.  If this is going to be an open adoption, you and the birth mom should be able to communicate with each other...even when it's a little uncomfortable.  You have a life time ahead of having to deal with each other (and chances are the agency will be minimal, if any, help after the adoption is complete).  I just think it would be better for you and the birth mom to get practice communicating and working through things together now.  Verses letting the agency mediate everything and try and keep her as happy as possible so that she continues on with the placement no matter what.  That attitude actually kind of gives me an icky vibe about the agency.

 

Of course, if the plan is not an open adoption, then what I'm saying is irrelevant here.  Again, best of luck to you guys.  I hope for the baby's sake that something changes her mind or that she ends up just not caring much either way in the end.

post #57 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

So, I converted my husband and he supports intact now, but the birthmom did say that she definitely wants circumcision in her birth plan. greensad.gif  I was instructed by the agency to let them talk to her about it, because they don't want it to cause a division between myself and the e-mom.  They are going to use my main points and see how seriously e-mom cares about the circumcision.  I'm sad.



Awwww...too bad.  But there's still hope!  (Maybe it's something she's really never considered before - people change their minds all the time.)  Will be thinking of you...

post #58 of 96

I'm not a birth mom but it made me feel icky, too.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady View Post




 

I'm sorry to hear that news (happy about your dh though).  As a birth mom, I don't know that I agree with the agency here.  If this is going to be an open adoption, you and the birth mom should be able to communicate with each other...even when it's a little uncomfortable.  You have a life time ahead of having to deal with each other (and chances are the agency will be minimal, if any, help after the adoption is complete).  I just think it would be better for you and the birth mom to get practice communicating and working through things together now.  Verses letting the agency mediate everything and try and keep her as happy as possible so that she continues on with the placement no matter what.  That attitude actually kind of gives me an icky vibe about the agency.

 

Of course, if the plan is not an open adoption, then what I'm saying is irrelevant here.  Again, best of luck to you guys.  I hope for the baby's sake that something changes her mind or that she ends up just not caring much either way in the end.



 

post #59 of 96

Many parents just do it because everyone else seems to be doing it, not because it is a strong philosophy of their own. Hugs through this next phase!

post #60 of 96

That's tough. I think I agree with CrazyCatLady though. I don't see any issue with talking to the e-mom and telling her your wishes, without pressuring her to go against her own. Maybe just sit down with her and let her know that if you were giving birth to the baby yourself, you wouldn't be circing him, and ask her if/why it is so important to her to have it done. Is it religion? Is it just b/c that's what she thinks is expected? I wouldn't argue with her at all, just try to get an open dialog going about how you feel the way you feel and why, and same for her. Tell her about your DH and his change of heart b/c it can always be done later, but not undone. Let her know that it is her choice and you will honor her decisions even if you don't agree, unless that is a deal breaker for you, in which case you need to tell her now so she can make other arrangements or choose to let you have your way.

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