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I am stupid, selfish, crazy and do not understand SCIENCE - Page 8

post #141 of 173

I have been reading this thread for a few reasons ~ 1) I just gave birth 3 months ago to our second son and feel the need to read up again on vaxing issues as my oldest son is 5 1/2 years old and it has been some time since I made the decision to stop all vaccines (he was 4 months old when I decided). And 2) I recently had a run in with my minister and a few other friends regarding the HPV vaccine and it really hurt my feelings.

 

After reading this thread and after much discussion with another likeminded friend I have learned this ~ I made the decision to stop vaxing because it was the decision that sat right with my "mommy gut" and made me feel safest about my own children. I harbor no ill will or even fear of parents who have made the decision to vax. We all want the right to do for our children as we feel most comfortable. What I DO wish is that vaxing parents would "get" that there is good science out there on both sides (obviously I feel there is better science to not vaxing...or I should say there is lack of good science to compel me to vax). I do hate the ideas that I find common among vaxing parents that I am a religious zealot (I am not), an uneducated idiot that is not vaxing because I am afraid my child will be autistic (it is actually the least of my worries...I worry more about auto-immune disorders, allergies, asthma and cancer), or that I got all of my research from Wakefield's studies. I cannot COUNT the times parents have said to me "well you know Wakefield was a fraud" as if he was the absolute only study that spoke out against the dangers of vaxing. As soon as Wakefield is mentioned I do immediately note that I am not the one lacking in my research/studies regarding vaccines.

 

I see it this way ~ if vaccine companies need my children to be vaxed to have their "herd" immunity...then they should invest monies into all kinds of vaccine research instead of paying costly lobby panels to get laws written to protect them or propel their products. But alas it is a "for-profit" business and I am afraid those kinds of studies will greatly harm the bottomline...so instead the fear-mongering continues. I have learned now ~ after 5 1/2 years ~ that I do not share my non-vaxing status until I know I am in safe company (even if it is safe company among vaxing parents who understand my choice) and that a great deal of the vaxing community is afraid because pharmaceutical companies have put the fear into them...so truly it is not their fault!

post #142 of 173

I thought I would post a relevant article by Sandy Gottstein entitled The Attempted Hijacking of "Science" by the Ultra Pro-Vaccine Crowd.

 

 


Edited by Mirzam - 9/22/11 at 11:59am
post #143 of 173
Thread Starter 

Thank you, Mizram!  Great article.

 

Here is quote from it I like:

 

Those who unquestioningly support and promote vaccination while at the same time trivializing vaccine safety concerns have tried to co-opt science as their own private fiefdom

post #144 of 173

Thanks so much for posting my column.  One small request:  if possible could you correct the spelling of my name to "Gottstein", please?  All the best,

Sandy

post #145 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygottstein View Post

Thanks so much for posting my column.  One small request:  if possible could you correct the spelling of my name to "Gottstein", please?  All the best,

Sandy

Oops, I'm sorry. I will fix it.redface.gif

 

I hope you stick around, it would be wonderful to have you here. 

 

 

post #146 of 173

Thank you!  I will sure try!!

post #147 of 173

Hello Sandy!  It's great to hear from you!

 

I like this point in particular--

"It is simply wrong to suggest that anecdotal evidence, which is based on observation, i.e., a fundamental part of scientific research, is inherently useless information.  It should be a starting point and nothing less. "

 

Nothing Less indeed!!

post #148 of 173

Thank you.  It's really hard to believe the stuff they try and pull.  It's as if they are trying to make the case that science is conducted w/a paper bag over your head!

 

I like to call it public health's "ostrich policy":  what you don't know can't hurt you.

 

 

post #149 of 173

In a way, they are acting like the Church did re: Galileo.  Here he had all these observations, but since it violated their belief system, they weren't interested and, in fact, tried to suppress him and his work.

post #150 of 173

I think there's also a powerful personal stake in believing the prevailing mythology that vaccines are safe and effective. No one wants to think they've harmed innocent children through quackery or because they fell for sleazy scaremongering and marketing ploys. It's much easier and safer, psychologically, to attack the messenger than it is to admit you might have been wrong, especially when the stakes are so high.

 

When you have all of the most well-funded, powerful authorities telling you that vaccines are completely safe and that fears about side effects and adverse reactions and damage to long-term health are overblown and paranoid, it must be tempting to comfortably believe that...especially if you vaccinated your own children, or have given countless thousands of doses to children over the years. It's hard to swim against the current, and even harder if doing so might involve admitting to a serious, irrevocable mistake. greensad.gif

 

Obviously, not all vaccinating parents fall into the above category, but I think cognitive dissonance and outright denial play a huge role in the vehemence with which many vaccinating parents and vaccine peddlers attack vaccine-free families. How dare we not make the "sacrifice" (a tacit admission, that) they did by refusing to give our healthy children powerful pharmaceutical drugs? I find their anger and hostility very telling and frankly, it only reinforces my belief that the evidence supporting mandatory one-size-fits-all vaccination is virtually nonexistent. If vaccines were so self-evidently safe and effective, they'd sell themselves.


Edited by peainthepod - 9/22/11 at 3:44pm
post #151 of 173

Well said.

post #152 of 173

Thanks, Mirzam!

post #153 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygottstein View Post

In a way, they are acting like the Church did re: Galileo.  Here he had all these observations, but since it violated their belief system, they weren't interested and, in fact, tried to suppress him and his work.


 

Indeed.  Among the most fanatical of the pro-vax crowd, I've seen behavior that gets downright fascist.  Take this piece, for example.  It first assumes without proving that all vaccines are safe no matter what.  Then it generalizes what critics are expressing and denounces them all as "dangerous."  Not wrong, not scientifically inaccurate.  Just "dangerous."  The article doesn't refute facts and evidence, such as those presented in your article, with countering facts and evidence.  Like intellectual dissenters of political dictatorships, you and other vaccine skeptics are just denounced as "dangerous" because you're questioning the dominant culture and prevailing ideology.

 

I watched a fascinating interplay occur between vaccine profiteer Paul Offit and Robert Sears, author of The Vaccine Book.  For simply questioning aluminum content in vaccines and proposing getting the vaccines at different times to be on the safe side and avoid heavy aluminum exposure, the decidedly pro-vaccine Dr. Sears was branded with the Scarlett Letter...A for Anti-Vax.  Definitely read through it when you get a chance.

 

From Offit: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full

From Sears: http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/response-dr-offit%E2%80%99s-misleading-and-inaccurate-review-vaccine-book-pediatrics-january

Reader Responses: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full/reply#pediatrics_el_49911

 

There no doubt in my mind that physicians risk being anathematized from their profession if they don't conform to prevailing medical dogma.  This phenomenon explains a previous poster's observation that the calmer and more "normal" doctors are so quiet on this issue.  I am grateful, however, that some physicians are starting to take a stand, show some flexibility, and be honest about the doubts that DO exist with the current vaccine schedule.

 

And I couldn't agree more with you that science is an ongoing, ever-changing, ever-evolving process involving rigorous inquiry.  There's a saying that in research, two questions should grow from every one answer.  In my coursework on research methods, we discussed at great length the phenomenon of premature closure of inquiry.  The parameters of human knowledge would be infinite if it didn't happen.  

 

For this reason, I grimace whenever I hear somebody essentially say, "The Science has spoken, so shut up already."  Translation: "I finally found/conducted/manipulated/interpreted research and/or an authoritative opinion that appears to confirm my biases and prejudices.  Please ensure the continuity of this status quo by not asking further questions or expressing any skepticism." eyesroll.gif  A shorter translation: "Whoopeeeeee!  Research results that I like!!!" 

 

Those who practice this form of sophistry invoke the name of Science to buttress their agenda with as much faith as a religious person invoking the name of God.   If the Devil can interpret the Scriptures to suit his purpose (to paraphrase Shakespeare), then so, too, can he interpret the all of the data surrounding the vaccine issue (a warning to pro-vaxxers and vaccine skeptics alike!)  A couple of my vaxxing friends, with an air of sanctimony that rivals any church lady, have explained to me, "Well, we're pro-science, so we vaccinate the kids."  I invariably responded, "Well, we're pro-science, so we selectively vaccinate because we haven't found solid and independent science to support the current vaccine schedule."  Silence prevails.  Because they haven't, either.   

Sorry, Charlie, but if you wanna be "pro-science," you're going to have to be a LEE-TLE bit more critical and skeptical....

 

 


Edited by Turquesa - 9/24/11 at 6:04pm
post #154 of 173

Thank you, Turquesa, for the links and incredibly thoughtful, well-spoken post.  It is because of parents like you and others posting here that I have not lost hope, after all these years. 

post #155 of 173

Well, I managed to get myself embroiled in a blog that I think proves the points I made in my most recent column, "The Attempted Hijacking...".  Here's a link to that blog: http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-gl-reimer-hpv-20110922,0,1457704.column

 

I welcome your opinions/reactions/comments.

post #156 of 173

I hope I'm not posting too often, but I just wanted to add that if anyone things I mishandled things, I would very much appreciate knowing that.  All the best, Sandy

post #157 of 173

You are not posting too often! We need all the help we can get. Speaking out is so important, and I will reply to that article today.

post #158 of 173

Thank you, BeckyBird.  I look forward to hearing your opinion.

post #159 of 173
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygottstein View Post

Well, I managed to get myself embroiled in a blog that I think proves the points I made in my most recent column, "The Attempted Hijacking...".  Here's a link to that blog: http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-gl-reimer-hpv-20110922,0,1457704.column

 

I welcome your opinions/reactions/comments.


I read it.  You did a good job of making your points while not stooping to a horror-match with W&N.

 

To me it was very clear he was simply trying to discredit anything anyone who had reservations about vaccines said.  He did not add much to the discussion - just pointed out things he perceived as flaws by others.  Sort of like politicians who blast the other side without putting forth much info on their own platform.

 

 

 

post #160 of 173

Thank you, Kathy. 

 

BTW, last time I ran into him was about 6 months ago at HuffPo.  I haven't commented on a blog since having to deal with him then, until now.

 

 

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