Is this a 'gifted' trait?

[peaceful_mama]

I'm not much on labels.  Quite honestly, I really don't care if he ever meets someone else's definition of "gifted"....the only reason I would test would be if he needed a different school setting and that would get it.

I do see a lot of things with him that seem "gifted".  He is 6.5 now.  Taught himself to read at about 4.  LOVES math and does complicated problems and concepts, it just 'comes' for him.  He gets it.

Here's my question

When he comes upon a new academic-type interest, he's VERY VERY focused on that thing.  Like when he decided he was going to learn to read, he sat down every day with this one book and kept at it till he could read it....then suddenly he could read everything!

and then, and ONLY then, does he move on.

It's been that way too with math, money, and the newest thing--maps and geography.  He'll be REALLY REALLY into it, living, sleeping, eating, breathing, asking asking asking day and night on whatever the pet topic is....and then a couple weeks later it'll be something else for awhile.

I mean he WILL do other stuff, like go ride his bike, watch his favorite TV shows...but if he's playing a computer game, it's likely to be on whatever topic.  And like right now, it's maps and geography.  He has drawn his own maps of the world, the US, North America, he labels countries and states.  (some are more accurate than others  ;)  He adds to them or draws new ones as his knowledge grows.)  He has now taught himself---he can find all 50 states on an unlabeled US map and tell you what the capital is.  All I did was pick up a US map puzzle at a rummage--the rest is all him!

Is this what "gifted" looks like?

in school he rarely misses anything on assignments, if anything, I see the expectations as LOW for where he is--like his spelling used to be better but since nobody cares about it at school yet, he doesn't watch it anymore either.  He also works fairly slowly, so he's actually not in the top group---even though his teacher has told me his ability is defintely there, the speed is not.  He is happy so far, so I don't push it.

[moominmamma]

That's what intensity of focus looks like. It's quite common in gifted kids but I've occasionally seen it in other kids too. I have a decidedly non-gifted young violin student who is described by his parents as an "immersion learner." My kids are similar in how they delve into passions, especially my eldest two (17 and 14). 

Miranda

[pranava]

That sounds just like my DS.  I like the idea of an immersion learner - I think I'll have to use that to help explain DS's passion and intensity to teachers and doctors.  Right now, I'm having some difficulty sorting out whether this is gifted intensity or the type of perseveration seen with aspergers.  I think it's easy to confuse the two and the therapists don't seem too familiar with gifted intensity.

But despite that confusion, DS definitely lives, sleeps with (literally), and breathes letters every second of the day in some form.  And I'm convinced he won't move on until he is reading.  Then I will probably never see him without his nose in a book.  He's SO INTENSE!  I've been thinking I need to teach him how to meditate so his poor little brain gets a break. 

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama 

It's been that way too with math, money, and the newest thing--maps and geography.  He'll be REALLY REALLY into it, living, sleeping, eating, breathing, asking asking asking day and night on whatever the pet topic is....and then a couple weeks later it'll be something else for awhile.

...

Is this what "gifted" looks like?

...

He also works fairly slowly, so he's actually not in the top group---even though his teacher has told me his ability is defintely there, the speed is not.  He is happy so far, so I don't push it.

When you combine the first with the last, it can also be a sign of ADD or an ASD. If he moves onto another interest in only a few weeks, I would probably guess it's not an ASD, since those interests apparently tend to last for about 2 years (according to what I've read - I'm new to researching ASD, since my dd was just dxd). I'm really no expert, though, and slow performance speed is common in kids with Asperger's. Hyperfocus on a topic of interest is very, very common with ADD. Many people think kids and adults with ADD can't focus at all, but that's definitely not true. People with ADD can hyperfocus for extended periods on topics that interest them. They also tend to be slow workers. Just a thought.

[minkin03]

My 5 yo is like this and has been like this since she was 2 yo. For her it's been reading, chess, competitive swimming, math, and puzzles. 

[Cavy]

It sounds like obsessiveness to me, rather than anything to do with Giftedness.  If they can do it in a healthy way, I don't see a problem.

I hope I don't sound prejudiced when I say this, I reckon that DS2 has relatively mild ADHD.  It's just that I know a mother-Daughter pair who are both like it, very very hyper focused on things they want to focus on; the daughter is amazingly talented at various things (sport, music) but below average at others math).  I think they both have very high functioning ADHD.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Cavy 

I hope I don't sound prejudiced when I say this, I reckon that DS2 has relatively mild ADHD.  It's just that I know a mother-Daughter pair who are both like it, very very hyper focused on things they want to focus on; the daughter is amazingly talented at various things (sport, music) but below average at others math).  I think they both have very high functioning ADHD.

A couple of people have mentioned the ADHD possibility, and I'm curious about this suggestion. I have kids, as I mentioned above, who tend to be "immersion learners," focusing deeply on one thing at a time. Their unschooled educational approach has allowed flourish in this manner, and people often comment on how exceptionally focused and driven they are. These are kids who could be left unaccompanied in the front row of the audience at a chamber music concert at age 3 (while I was performing) and who would remain attentive and well-behaved throughout. They can read for 8 hours, or delve into science for six weeks and wrap up a year's worth of curriculum. If this exceptional ability to focus is a sign of ADHD, I don't really see where the deficit part of attention deficit comes into it. I get that ADHD kids can occasionally focus very intensely on things that they're stoked about, but surely that's not the defining element of the disorder -- just something that doesn't necessarily exclude the diagnosis when it is being considered for other reasons? Or maybe my kids do all have ADHD in spite of the fact that they've never exhibited any deficit in attention?

Miranda

[joensally]

I think that human brains are far more neurologically complex than the various diagnostic labels placed on people.  ADHD is a list of behavioural characteristics, and the overlap between the ADHD list and the lists of behavioural manifestations of various other complexities/disorders/differences/just plain being an individual is enormous.

Hyperfocus can be a characteristic of ADHD, but having hyperfocus does not mean someone has ADHD, or is on the autism spectrum.

Intensity is considered common in gifted individuals.  

That said, OP, if it's problematic for your child, there are strategies that can be employed to support him to shift.  But being an immersion learner may fit his temperament and style, and be positive for him.

I think it's not very constructive, and even dangerous to the individual, to pathologize what is normal and healthy for that individual.

[Linda on the move]

I think the dividing line is when a trait becomes a hindrance to the child, rather than strictly being a helpful trait or a neutral personality trait. Most traits of ADD/ ADHD and high functioning autism occur in normal people, but in such small ways that they do not impact our quality of life. It's when they trait makes functioning in situations that are normal for our society's expectation of our age is extremely difficult or impossible that there is a problem.

My DD who is gifted and on the autism spectrum has hyper focus -- to the point that she has trouble carrying on a conversation about anything other than her special interest. I have noticed that she and her friend (who also has Asperger's) are making an effort in the teen years to branch out, but it has a studied quality to it.

I don't see hyper focus as a gifted trait. My child DD who is *just* gifted isn't like that, and neither are most of her buddies.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I don't see hyper focus as a gifted trait. My child DD who is *just* gifted isn't like that, and neither are most of her buddies.

I don't think it is a trait that all gifted people, but I believe it is still a common trait among gifted people and I think you'd find it on many checklists for identifying giftedness.

There are many things in our world that can interfere with children developing this intense ability to focus - busy schedules, media, etc.  But, I will say I am concerned that no longer can we even talk about intense focus without it being patholigized as indicative of a disorder. As a homeschooler, I hoped that my child would develop the intense ability to focus because it can be incredibly satisfying and it is something that as part of the lives of many intellectually engaged people. Look at any university and I'm sure you'll find among the music faculty kids who were "obsessed" with practicing, on the biology faculty somebody who loved bugs or dinosaurs and never stopped.

http://www.amazon.com/Flow-Psychology-Experience-Mihaly-Csikszentmihalyi/dp/0061339202/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309462833&sr=8-1

To the original poster: I would only be concerned if it gets to the point where it violates other needs in his life - like he's missing meals or being unkind to people. Otherwise, I think it is great he's found something he enjoys. One thing we've observed with cyclical interests is that often the child works on it until they master the next level or reach the point where they aren't going to progress due to some limitation (maturity, resources, etc.) and then they are able to let go and move on to the next thing for a while. At least here very often the same interests are revisited over the years. Those that aren't remain areas of knowledge and happy memories.

[pranava]

So what is hyper focus vs intense interest? 

Is hyper focused the inability to do anything else, or tantrums if the focus is shifted?  Does it have anything to do with the length of time it is focused on in one sitting, or over weeks or months? 

[FarmerBeth]

All of my kids have shown hyperfocus like you described, one has probable Asperger's (ADOS is getting done this month) and is gifted, one is all round gifted with no issues and one is not gifted with some non spectrum speech problems but just plain determined.  However, the feel of the focusing was different.  My gifted DD spent long hours teaching herself to read as a toddler, but she was happy to try any type of book and she could easily be interrupted to have a conversation or play.  Same when she taught herself to ride a bike or decided she wanted to learn how to do long division from her older brother.  She kept at it more than a lot of non-gifted kids I know but there wasn't any problem shifting focus.  When DS1 (who probably has Asperger's) gets focused on something, we hear about it every conversation and he will try to do said activity every unscheduled moment (fortunately, he has a kind of "professional" attitude about school, sports, volunteering, church and his business so he will switch gears for these scheduled things as he feels an obligation).  He will also incorporate the interest into the structured activities when possible.  Right now his interest is in farming and wanting an agricultural science degree one day.  His heritage fair project was of course on farming this year, he's growing herbs and herbal products for his business, he's planning next years science fair project on a comparison of growth rates and food consumption of different poultry.  There's some other interests thrown in there (space, money making in general, how religion and science relate and differ,  Robin hood and King Arthur), but all of these interests will go overboard in several day jags (I don't know about that couple of year interest thing one of the posters mentioned earlier, I'm a TA and I've seen a pretty broad range along the autism spectrum for this).  The non-gifted DS just seems to have stick-to-it-iveness: he just wants to learn how to do things well and will keep up with it until he's satisfied with himself.

[pranava]

I found this article to be an intersting perspective on gifted trait vs ADHD/ASD/OCD. 

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10438.aspx 

[joensally]

Originally Posted by pranava 

I found this article to be an intersting perspective on gifted trait vs ADHD/ASD/OCD. 

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10438.aspx 

That is a VERY good article.  I liked this:

If these traits are misinterpreted (e.g., if a highly idealistic child is rebuked for being “critical”), two kinds of problems can result. First, the child may receive pejorative labels because adults assume that the behavior reflects an anti-social motive or even a pathological origin; and second, other problems like anger, withdrawal, or low self-worth can result. After all, who wouldn’t become upset in the face of chronic misunderstanding, frustration, criticism, and isolation?

I have a very divergent thinking, 2E (SPD, written output, vision), EG kid.  I've had to fight all along with the school about how they interpreted him.  He's had multiple professional evals, and the professionals do not make findings of ASD, ADHD or ODD.  The schools, however, struggle in how to interpret his behaviours and orientations.  He'll be going into his third year at the same school and I think they're finally starting to get that these are "normal" behaviours for him. He can become highly focused on topics of interest until he feels he's achieved a sufficiently high level of competence/knowledge, he is often active (SPD or highly engaged in concepts/see Dabrowski), he is very sensitive (SPD and emotional/other awareness).  Because of his written output disorder he can't get out all that he knows, and he's frustrated with the curriculum which they were not sufficiently differentiating because of the written output.  Asynchrony is common in school-age gifted kids, and the asynchrony can also be easily misinterpreted and pathologized.

I think it's important to get or provide help when a child needs it to make their life more easily navigatable, but you can help with an issue without pathologizing or even labeling it.  Quirky is good, IMNSHO.  :)

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Roar 

But, I will say I am concerned that no longer can we even talk about intense focus without it being patholigized as indicative of a disorder.

Even though you were responding to my post, I agree with you. I didn't respond to the thread the first time I saw precisely because I didn't want to point out that my focused child has special needs, and my not-so-focused child does not! 

I only jumped in to talk about where the line is between normal focus and focus that has just gone too far to be helpful for the child.

It's hard to explain where the line it, partly because it is a thin grey line. Part of it depends on the expectations of the age the child is -- lots of very normal 4 year old can only talk about dinosaurs, for example, but most normal 14 year olds can talk about a variety of subjects.

The OPers child sounds like he goes to school and does fine switching from subject to subject, so no red flags there.

Pranava asked "So what is hyper focus vs intense interest?  Is hyper focused the inability to do anything else, or tantrums if the focus is shifted?  Does it have anything to do with the length of time it is focused on in one sitting, or over weeks or months?"

It depends. If a child is 3 and happily playing/exploring with something you and take it away, it's normal for them to have a tantrum. If they are 7 and can't stop the thing they are doing when it is time to do something else without having a melt down, there could be a problem.

As far as length of time, with my ASD dd, focus on one subject can last for months, or in some cases years. Periods between a special interest are extremely uncomfortable for her. It's like she cannot be at peace with herself without something to be consumed with.

I can seriously see her working in scientific research as an adult. It's just how her brain is wired.  But I can't see her running huge projects or coordinating the work of a team because those kinds of things require switching focus often.

[Holiztic]

That is how I operate and always have. It is both a blessing and a curse. I know more about some things than anyone could without having a professional degree (more than some of them even) but I often focus on a new interest at the expense of every day things like weeding, paying bills, etc.  I get totally engrossed. I believe it is an obsessive trait. I have no compulsions, though, so not OCD.  BTW-- I do not believe I am gifted, though I am above average in at least some areas of intelligence. 

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by Holiztic 

That is how I operate and always have. It is both a blessing and a curse. I know more about some things than anyone could without having a professional degree (more than some of them even) but I often focus on a new interest at the expense of every day things like weeding, paying bills, etc.  I get totally engrossed. I believe it is an obsessive trait. I have no compulsions, though, so not OCD.  BTW-- I do not believe I am gifted, though I am above average in at least some areas of intelligence. 

Thinking back, I was like this too as a child. I would get a new skill or interest and practice or research it til I had it figured out or mastered. Anything from sports to learning to play instruments or learning new languages. My problem is I'm a perfectionist and once I had mastered whatever it was I was learning I would quit b/c my expectations of myself have always been very high and it would never be good enough. 

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Even though you were responding to my post, I agree with you. I didn't respond to the thread the first time I saw precisely because I didn't want to point out that my focused child has special needs, and my not-so-focused child does not! 

We have a similar set-up here. My DD1 that has 'only' physical special needs is the one that has very.intense.focus. and has since she was a babe. My DD2 that has special needs that are more inline w/ PDD_NOS in addition to some physical stuff has good focus in the am and poor in the pm (related to her physical stamina). Neither DD has any traits of ADD/ADHD.

I see the hyper-focus as more of a personality type than anything else.

DD1 is just intense & obsessive. She always has been. She oozes personality and enthusiasim. She has a hard time transitioning when she is 'in the zone' of her interest of the month/year/week/whatever just because she likes to control her environment and actions.But she also has other interests as well and is very social, verbal, etc. She likes to share what she knows. She wants to lead her peers (and often does). Just a type A personality in a little body.Extrovert.

DD2 is more mellow, reserved, slow/deep thinker. She is friendly and curious. You have to talk to her for a bit to see what she knows, she is not a follower or loner- but rather does her own thing. But she is definitely 'quirky' and sensitive to sounds, environmental changes, crowds, etc.  She often ponders things and observes before deciding her mind on something.Introverted

They both are bright (untested)--- I see the intensity as more of a personality type than anything else. I have no doubt they are about the same cognitive ability range.

[Calliope84]

Originally Posted by minkin03 

Thinking back, I was like this too as a child. I would get a new skill or interest and practice or research it til I had it figured out or mastered. Anything from sports to learning to play instruments or learning new languages. My problem is I'm a perfectionist and once I had mastered whatever it was I was learning I would quit b/c my expectations of myself have always been very high and it would never be good enough. 

Originally Posted by Holiztic 

That is how I operate and always have. It is both a blessing and a curse. I know more about some things than anyone could without having a professional degree (more than some of them even) but I often focus on a new interest at the expense of every day things like weeding, paying bills, etc.  I get totally engrossed. I believe it is an obsessive trait. I have no compulsions, though, so not OCD.  BTW-- I do not believe I am gifted, though I am above average in at least some areas of intelligence. 

I am also this way, and I am somewhere on the "cusp" of giftedness around 130.  I have a lot of trouble switching gears, too. I do NOT have Asberger's.  If I am on a writing / researching kick, everything in my home suffers to a certain degree. I always make time for DD, but I let laundry, dishes, and bills fall off my radar. Then I do those things for a few days and go back to immersing myself in whatever it is I am interested in.  I doubt I will ever get it together and learn to totally balance the things in my life. I just don't care enough about laundry and dishes. The most frustrating part about becoming a mother has been the way that I only get small chunks of time to devote to thinking / reading / researching. It is endlessly frustrating to have to stop over and over and over again. But DH is great and tries to give me whole mornings and days sometimes, so it is alright.

"I know more about some things than anyone could without having a professional degree (more than some of them even)..."

I second this, too.  I feel like I need to finish getting a degree so people that already have them will take me more seriously and engage in interesting conversations with me. 

There is nothing wrong with being intense and focused. A lot of the people who make discoveries, invent things, and are successful in life have the ability to focus on one thing for a period of time and delve deeply into it. I consider it to be a positive trait, even though most people don't have it and thus, don't always appreciate it. The only thing I am working on for this is finding ways to be nicer about getting interrupted. I remember reading about one guy putting a sign up for his small children when he was writing and if they saw it up, they had to sit there quietly for a minute or so so he could finish his train of thought. I think that might be a good idea. It worked for him.

[Tigerle]

Calliope, I could have written your post (except for what your DH is doing for you, we are working on that one! ; b).

One of the things that need to happen for people like us is being able to line up our area of focus with what the outside world is expecting right now (obviously, it's not going to work with dishes, I hope it may work for me at some point with my facilitating my children's education). There are a number of reasons I never finished my PhD, but I honestly believe the biggest reason is that I was never able to line up my research area with my "focus area", IYKWIM. I hope I will one day be able to do it on the workplace, if not I will at some point get fired for using the internet for purposes outside work during work hours because I Just Cannot Let Go of pursuing that one question that's come up.

And I will fight tooth and nail to help my children with this line-up in their education, and if I can help them find it later in life, too. I say "children", though so far we know only that DS is this way too, but I think it is a strong personality trait in our family. Not necessarily a gifted trait, but in our family, part of the package.