If your young child is adamant about going to school, - Page 2

[SweetSilver]

I want to say that my 6.5yo daughter, pretty much "unschooled" since day one and with no desire to go to school loves to go around showing off her knowledge.  She's the fact-lover, and when she shows off to adults, they think it's charming.  I have no doubt that were she in school, she would BE THAT KID!  This kid is trouble, as far as your homeschooled son's self-esteem is concerned, but it might just be a personality quirk, because I have one of those in my house!  Were he homeschooled as well, the effect might still be the same...

Does this kid know how bad his showing off makes other kids feel?  Your son is probably not the only one on the receiving end of his bragging.

[Nettie35]

Every child wants to be as cool as their friends and do what others do! Maybe a simple conversation about how he feels and then come up with a plan (list his ideas even if they are silly to you) and implement them. Create a web diagram to help him get in touch with his feelings about why he wants to go to school.

Some conversation suggestions:

*I can see (or hear) that you really want to to go school. Can you tell me what you think school is like? What kind of things do you think they do?(draw a school and list all the things he thinks school is)

*That does sound like fun, maybe we can create our own school. Draw another school and come up with a name, school colors, a schedule if he is into it, and a take this exercise as far as he wants too.

*How do you think you (we) can create something cool like this? Brainstorm...they always love that. Since he is seven he will probably come up with some really fantastic ideas like creating a zip line into his classroom, thats OK write it down anyway.

Be real with him and empower him in this situation! All the other "stuff" like vaccinations(I have been a simular situation) doesnt matter, what he thinks is the most important thing. Help him solve this problem, place the responsiblity on him to solve this problem, that true education.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

This kid is trouble, as far as your homeschooled son's self-esteem is concerned, but it might just be a personality quirk, because I have one of those in my house!  Were he homeschooled as well, the effect might still be the same...

Does this kid know how bad his showing off makes other kids feel?  Your son is probably not the only one on the receiving end of his bragging.

I don't know if things would be the same if this kid were homeschooled. I started thinking about when I began having serious problems with his behavior. It was soon after he started school. That's when he became so over-the-top competitive and sneaky and dishonest. I know he was jealous in the beginning that my ds didn't have to go to school because he told his mom many times that he wanted to be homeschooled, too. I feel like I'm bashing this kid but the fact is that he has problems with all the other kids. My ds can play with everyone else in the neighborhood in various groups and there's hardly ever any trouble. As soon as this one kid enters the mix, he's fighting with everyone. The other kids try to ditch him. They don't invite him to parties. His parents don't seem to get that the problem is with him and not everyone else.

I have talked to him at least once about how his behavior makes others feel but I don't think he gets it. His reaction whenever I try to talk to him is to put his head down and pout and not say a word until I'm done. I don't think he's really listening. I think he's just waiting until it's over and hoping he doesn't get into big trouble or is punished. His dad, at least, is pretty harsh with punishments. I've seen him hit his son once and I've seen him threaten him with various objects. One time when my dh pulled a very heavy brush out of the garage to get the dirt off his boots, this boy literally cowered and wimpered as if he thought he my dh was going to hit him with it.

Nettie ~ I like your suggestions. Very practical. Those are things I can definitely do. I'll have a hard time, though, if my ds wants something very structured. I have finally come to accept the fact that I am not a structured person. I am terrible at following schedules or even loose plans.

[prettypixels]

Wasn't he asking to go to school for first grade also?  If your kid wants to go to school and learn stuff, let him go!  Lots of kids have a blast at school.  Why not at least give him the chance to try?  Aren't you supposed to be following his cues?  I'd say asking consistently for over a year to go to school is a pretty big cue.  

[prettypixels]

BTW if you think that a child is actually being hit with objects so much so that they whimper when they see a brush, you should call CPS.  Seriously.  Immediately.  

[swede]

Originally Posted by prettypixels 

Wasn't he asking to go to school for first grade also?  If your kid wants to go to school and learn stuff, let him go!  Lots of kids have a blast at school.  Why not at least give him the chance to try?  Aren't you supposed to be following his cues?  I'd say asking consistently for over a year to go to school is a pretty big cue.  

I don't think just because a kid asks for something it is necessarily the best thing for them. 

OP -  you are the parent - you know what's best for your kids.  I like some of the other pp suggestions about seeing what it is he likes about the idea of school and integrating that into your homeschool.  Lots of kids have a blast at school, true.  That doesn't mean it's good for them.

[NellieKatz]

I was thinking that you could sort of split the difference. Yes, unschooling is about following the child's lead about the kind of learning they want to do, and yes, it would theoretically be good to say "let him go; you can always pull him out if he hates it later" but I do agree that he's too young to make this decision. Some bells cannot be "un-rung" and some damage can't be undone. Clearly he doesn't have the big picture (and so he shouldn't....you are the parent and the bigger issues like vaccination & all that are grownup issues to solve). So maybe you can say, "I see you really want to go to school, and your preferences are very important to me. But I think you will be better able to make that decision when you are [fill in age]."

Kids have to do that all the time. (i.e. wait till a certain age to do something, like get a job or learners permit, or whatever). By doing it this way, he can feel hope that someday soon he can do it, he won't feel trapped in his current situation, and he can even "work toward it" by making sure he's up-to-speed on the various subjects. That alone may discourage him from wanting to go! haha.

[nursingmommaof2]

So for two years now your son has wanted to go to school but you won't let him. He wants a more structured learning environment but you refuse to do that because 'its just not you". 

How did he do the standardized test if he has trouble reading? You didn't read the questions and answers out to him, did you? 

[cheery]

I think I mentioned here before that all but one homeschool group that I know of in our area are religious. Since we are atheist, getting involved in co-ops with those groups wouldn't work

Hi there - We don't share religious beliefs / nonbeliefs with anyone we know, yet we manage to do things together with all kinds of people.  Specifically wrt homeschool groups, I too was hesitant to join the main group in our area because it was religious but what I found when I joined was that they do not teach religion in the group.  The weekly co-op classes focus on art, music & gym because that helps parents meet the county requirement for those subjects.  They also have classes like science, Spanish, etc and they DO NOT teach Creation or Design or whatever in the science class.  THey would probably not be happy if I taught Evolution (by name) either but it never came up so it did not become an issue.   The class is once a week and is not meant to cover your entire subject matter, just an opportunity for the kids to meet and do things together like make atoms out of pretzel sticks and marshmallows or draw up the life cycle of a butterfly, you get the picture.  Whether the butterfly wings colors came from God or adaptation, both or whatever, you can discuss on your own time.   I used to worry about what might happen if  my daughter were to speak up about this because we have been to the Smithsonian Exhibit on evolution (and specifically butterflies) and she is really into the whole thing.  But it was never a big deal.  They are mostly busy with their glue and scissors.  The co-op class is honestly more for filling that gap that young homeschoolers sometimes need to feel that they are part of a structured learning group as their schooled peers are.  Lining up to go to the class, taking lunch in a box - these too were special to my dd.

If they had anything religious such as grace before lunch or a religious song I would not have objected, I would have just told my daughter that it was a custom that some of the people followed and it was part of this group.  I wouldn't have required to do it, but I would not have objected if she wanted to sing along either.  I would be prepared to discuss any questions that came up afterwards.  At least that is what I think I would have done, since it never happened I can't say.  If it got to be too heavy I guess I would have had problems, but it never came up.

Re: mornings.  Left to herself dd wakes up between 10 am and noon.  Yet when we joined the homeschool co-op, we had to leave the house at 8:30.  I took her to the first one and she liked it so much she was easy to wake up for the next one.   It was only once a week - she looked forward to that day.    She went to a day-camp once for 5 days which required 7 am wake up and she managed that too.

Of course if your child were to go to school it would involve early wake-up as well.

[moominmamma]

I used to say that by the time my kids were 10 they'd have the majority of the say in this choice. Then my eldest wanted to check out school (out of curiosity, and a concern that she was missing something crucial and meaningful) at 9, and I let her "shadow" for a week, after which she decided "meh." Now I have an exceptionally mature 8-year-old (my fourth child) who I think I would allow to attend school if she really wanted ... but she is fully capable of considering all sides of the issue and has understood that the limited social benefits would come at some pretty signficant costs for her. 

So would I let a 7-year-old choose for himself? I don't know. It would depend on the 7-year-old, and the school.

I would certainly take the request seriously. Meaning that I would open, and continue, a dialogue to solve whatever the issues are. For instance, if he is craving social interaction, I would bite the bullet and join a support group or co-op even if didn't match up with my religious beliefs or homeschooling style. Or if there are no extra-curriculars you can afford to get to, I would *start* something if possible... a Roots&Shoots group, or a Reader's Circle, or a Family Bicycle Club, or a Children's Community Garden, or whatever, volunteering my time in an organizational or leadership capacity, possibly trading off younger-brother child care with a mom who has an older child who wants to be part of the activity you're running. I would take a more active role in setting up a roster of play-dates. I would get out and about more with him, even if it's just to a café for a hot chocolate, to the park, for a litter-picking walk. I would do whatever was in my power to fix the "mornings don't work" issue so that you can get to the secular homeschool group -- minimize artificial lighting in the evenings, move dinner time an hour earlier, institute a family tradition of a walk or a quiet swing and readaloud story in the hammock at 8:30 pm. I mean, really... if school is the alternative, that's going to involve early mornings in a huge way, so finding a way to manage mornings to serve unschooling is probably small potatoes compared with the that.

If it's the lack of structure and intentionality to his days that's bothering him, if he's so unaware of his learning because it's such an integral part of his life, find ways to draw his attention to what he's learning. And maybe consider ways to reassure him about the skills and concepts he's picking up. Find a general 2nd grade skills dollar-store workbook and let him at it: let him see that he can do much of what is technically a year ahead of his age-grade. Sit down with him and ask him what he would like to learn and how he would like to learn it: and if that entails structure and school-like materials, support him in that. Maybe that will get it out of his system, or else maybe you'll both discover that he thrives on it. 

If he's getting disparaging comments about his education from his buddy, then I don't think occasional counter-indoctrination would be amiss either. If you get into a casual conversation that meanders into plate tectonics or the caramelization of sugar, or what "average" means from a mathematical standpoint, do a little double-take and exclaim "Oh! Isn't it lucky you're homeschooled! I didn't get to learn about this stuff until I was in high school [fifth grade, eighth grade ... ]!" Or if you're eating waffles at 10 a.m. on a blustery day, relish the moment by saying "This is so cozy and nice and relaxed. Imagine if you were Dylan, you'd have had to be out of bed three hours ago and waiting outside in that horrible weather for the bus!"

Rather than just seeing it as a "School? Or no school?" issue, treat it as a signal that something, or several things, need to change. Set about identifying those things, and make it clear to your ds that you see his dissatisfaction with homeschooling as an issue to be creatively and energetically explored and solved. 

Miranda

[SweetSilver]

Back to the issue of vaccinations:

I would like to offer up another thought that IF you feel he is old enough to make the decision to go to school against your preference, then he is probably old enough to decide for himself about whether to accept the vaccinations in order to attend.

[MarineWife]

I don't think I ever said that my ds had trouble reading. I said he doesn't read books fluently. A nationally standardized test for the 1st grade does not require that. Not one part of the test was for evaluating reading skill or fluency. It was for evaluating conceptual understanding. FWIW, he was able to read most of the test questions and all of the answers. I only had to read the parts that I was supposed to read. I brought the reading up because I thought that he had to be able to read and write book reports for 2nd grade and I don't think he's ready for that. He very well might surprise me wrt that just like he has with so many other things I didn't know he knew how to do. But, that's part of the beauty of unschooling. He doesn't need to be able to do that at any certain time. He can get it when he gets it and he's obviously learning and progressing quite well without being forced to follow someone else's schedule.

As far as how long he's been asking about school, I probably wouldn't have a problem with letting him try school if he were older. What age, I can't really say, maybe 10 or 12, but it really depends on the child. I don't think that letting him try school would be without negative consequences. I do think that school is generally not a good place for kids to be. It may be better for some kids than home and some kids may really enjoy school all the way through but I don't think that's very common. I can think of only one person I have ever known who might feel that way about school. I had a very bad experience in school even though I did very well academically. My oldest had an even worse time in school. I don't think it's a good place and I don't want my younger children damaged by it the way my older child was. A 7yo is still very impressionable and I don't know if mine would be able to understand the situation fully. That being said, I may look into seeing if he can "visit" the school for a week or two this coming year, although I don't know if he'd get a true picture in the first couple of weeks.

As to the friend possibly being hit with objects, I have talked to several people about it and have been told that without actually witnessing him being hit or seeing marks or bruises on him, there's nothing anyone can do. I've only seen him spanked once, which is perfectly legal in this state. I have seen him threatened with but never hit with anything else. I have never seen any marks or bruises on him and I've seen him in his underwear many times.

[rutabega]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 

I brought the reading up because I thought that he had to be able to read and write book reports for 2nd grade and I don't think he's ready for that.

For whatever it's worth, my ds just finished 2nd grade and they didn't do book reports.  Instead the students were to read for 15-20 minutes a day, and record the title of the book in their reading log and a sentence or two about what they read.  My ds would often write stuff like, "It was funny when Jack thought his older brother was a robber!"  The reading material for the students varied, according to their interests and abilities.  Just as I'm sure your ds follows his interests and abilities.  My understanding is that the writing about what they read was an exercise in getting more comfortable with writing. 

[midnightwriter]

Originally Posted by prettypixels 

Wasn't he asking to go to school for first grade also?  If your kid wants to go to school and learn stuff, let him go!  Lots of kids have a blast at school.  Why not at least give him the chance to try?  Aren't you supposed to be following his cues?  I'd say asking consistently for over a year to go to school is a pretty big cue.  

The bolded part is a very typical misconception that learning occurs only in schools. The OP is not concerned about her DS not LEARNING. In fact, she stated he did really well on the standardised test.

This kind of thinking comes from the idea that school is a default, and it doens't have to be. Would you pull your 7 year old out of school, if he wanted to homeschool? Would it be your first step, or you'd try to solve whatever was bothering your child in other ways? Similarly, homeschooling parents try to solve their issues within the framework of homeschooling.

We lived in an area where many children as young as 9-10 year old smoked. If my kids were asking consistenly for over a year to try smoking, does it mean I should be following their cues and getting them cigarrettes? I mean, why not to give them a chance to try, right?

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by rutabega 

For whatever it's worth, my ds just finished 2nd grade and they didn't do book reports.  Instead the students were to read for 15-20 minutes a day, and record the title of the book in their reading log and a sentence or two about what they read.  My ds would often write stuff like, "It was funny when Jack thought his older brother was a robber!"  The reading material for the students varied, according to their interests and abilities.  Just as I'm sure your ds follows his interests and abilities.  My understanding is that the writing about what they read was an exercise in getting more comfortable with writing. 

Oh, hm. It is hard for me to understand what exactly this other boy is doing in school. English is not his mother's primary language and she has a heavy accent so I don't always understand what she says and I'm not sure she always understand what I say. I thought she said her son had to write short paragraph book reports. I did ask her if she could show me the types of books he had to read but she didn't have any available.

Thanks you, midnightwriter. That's how I feel. Rather than automatically defaulting to school, I'd much rather try to solve this within our homeschooling. School is not the only place that learning happens and, a lot of times, the learning that does happen in school is inferior.

[zinemama]

My kid just finished 2nd grade, too. They didn't do book reports, either. In addition to reading groups, they did independent reading every day for 15 minutes (at whatever level they were). Then they spent the next 15 minutes either reading to a friend or reading on their own, their choice. Book reports started for my older son in 4th grade, and there were only two of them.

To answer midnightrider's question: Absolutely, if my kid in school announced that he wanted to be homeschooled, I would take a hard look at what was going on in his classroom and try very hard to find a solution that didn't involve changing our entire approach to education. (I have no misgivings about hs'ing in general, but many about myself as a homeschooling parent.) However, if after a year had passed my child was still asking to come home, I would have to think seriously about honoring my child's needs, re-evaluating my position and experimenting with the approach that might be best for him, after all.

ETA: Not saying you should do it, but IF your son were to go to school, would it be the same one where you say your older son had a bad experience? If not, I would encourage you to check out the school for yourself and talk to the teachers - if only to have an accurate information as a citizen, rather than relying on the hearsay of a woman who you can't understand very well.
Edited by zinemama - 7/3/11 at 5:14pm

[mamaofthree]

3 of my 6 children will be going to school in the fall. dd#1 will be a senior in high school and has been going for the last 2 years (she wanted to go very badly) ds#1 will be in 8th grade, first time in school ever and he really wanted to go. ds#3 will be going to a program offered to home schoolers by the city once a week because at almost 7 he really really wants to go. i feel lucky that we have this option because i am not sure i would want him gone all day everyday... that being said i think if i trust them to pick what they want to learn how can i not allow them to at least give it a try. they all know that they can stop at any time. dd is one of the few kids in her school that loves it because it is her choice 100%.

h

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by mamaofthree 

if i trust them to pick what they want to learn how can i not allow them to at least give it a try.

With the older kids, I agree, but with the younger one I don't know. School is not about learning, really. It's about teaching and there are all kinds of external influences that can be hard for a younger child to navigate. The younger a child is when he is put in a position to perform, the more likely it is for that child to get stuck on that and lose his passion for learning in general. Then there's dynamic that goes on between the children that can get down right nasty. My 20yo still brings up new stuff about being bullied when he was in school and I can tell that it still hurts him. I pulled him out of school in the middle of 7th grade so the bullying happened when he was quite young. That's not something I want my sweet, sensitive 7yo to have to go through or even witness.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 



With the older kids, I agree, but with the younger one I don't know. School is not about learning, really. It's about teaching and there are all kinds of external influences that can be hard for a younger child to navigate.

Yeah, once they decide to sign up for school, most other choices about what to learn and when go out the window.  The child can't tell the teacher he doesn't feel like doing math today.  Rewards and punishments are introduced to the learning process.  A large amount of time is wasted as the students wait for their turn at something.  And a large amount of time is spent being taught to take the yearly tests.  Choosing to go to school is choosing to not have a choice. 

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

Yeah, once they decide to sign up for school, most other choices about what to learn and when go out the window.  The child can't tell the teacher he doesn't feel like doing math today.  Rewards and punishments are introduced to the learning process.  A large amount of time is wasted as the students wait for their turn at something.  And a large amount of time is spent being taught to take the yearly tests.  Choosing to go to school is choosing to not have a choice.