If your young child is adamant about going to school, - Page 3

[mamaofthree]

although i do agree that their choices are limited... if they want to go they should be given a chance. if they don't like it they can come home, that right there i think makes the difference. if they know that they don't have to go if they don't like it then they can enjoy it for what it is more. my dd (yes, she is in high school) doesn't always like all the classes she has to take and we talk about it alot, does she want to continue? is it worth it to her to do it in this certain way? can she get what she wants differently? for her it works this way, going to public school. that being said, maybe putting it off for another year, seeing what you can put together at home might work. what is it your dd is missing? what does she want that maybe she isn't getting at home? more social time? then make that happen. more "class structure" (because some kids love that, whether it fits into our ideal of unschooling or not), then see if maybe your parks and recs has classes or the library or the zoo, or see if maybe some other parents what to start up a schooling co-op. check out some workbooks and see if she likes just doing some "book work" for a bit everyday. 

with my dd i put it on her. she can be homeschooled at any time, we can find a different experience for her if this isn't working. i don't get caught up in the tests and grades, and because of that she is doing great. one days she was telling me about how she got a "C" on a physics test, it was a hard test and lots of the kids didn't do "A" work, but she was the only one whose parent wouldn't care. my biggest thing was that understood what she missed so that she could get the most out of the class (which she picked to take) and she did. 

although i wouldn't let my 7 year old smoke crack or do a beer bong, i would let him try out school. as long as they know they can come home at any time, i am willing to give it a go. some kids just do well in school. not everyone has the love of learning beat out of them. some kids LOVE worksheets and that level of structure. i have three that may never go to school and three who seem to want to at least try it. that is the nutty thing about people, they are all different.

i haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed a little so maybe this was already touched on.

h

[Attila the Honey]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

Yeah, once they decide to sign up for school, most other choices about what to learn and when go out the window.  The child can't tell the teacher he doesn't feel like doing math today.  Rewards and punishments are introduced to the learning process.  A large amount of time is wasted as the students wait for their turn at something.  And a large amount of time is spent being taught to take the yearly tests.  Choosing to go to school is choosing to not have a choice. 

I completely agree, and I don't think at 7 years old a child is old enough to understand that and make an informed choice.

[midnightwriter]

Originally Posted by zinemama 

My kid just finished 2nd grade, too. They didn't do book reports, either. In addition to reading groups, they did independent reading every day for 15 minutes (at whatever level they were). Then they spent the next 15 minutes either reading to a friend or reading on their own, their choice. Book reports started for my older son in 4th grade, and there were only two of them.

To answer midnightrider's question: Absolutely, if my kid in school announced that he wanted to be homeschooled, I would take a hard look at what was going on in his classroom and try very hard to find a solution that didn't involve changing our entire approach to education. (I have no misgivings about hs'ing in general, but many about myself as a homeschooling parent.) However, if after a year had passed my child was still asking to come home, I would have to think seriously about honoring my child's needs, re-evaluating my position and experimenting with the approach that might be best for him, after all.

ETA: Not saying you should do it, but IF your son were to go to school, would it be the same one where you say your older son had a bad experience? If not, I would encourage you to check out the school for yourself and talk to the teachers - if only to have an accurate information as a citizen, rather than relying on the hearsay of a woman who you can't understand very well.

Well, it depends. If my 7 yo child were perpetually unhappy, dissatisfied, and passive, and talked about school with some regularity, and nothing I tried to do at home worked, then yes, it is time to reconsider homeschooling.

If my 7 yo was happy, active, engaged, and would bring up going to school a couple of times a year, especially after playing with a certain child in the neighbourhood, then no.

If your schooled child's friend was an unschooler, who talked about sleeping in every day, getting to stay late, playing video games all he wanted, and not having to take any tests, and your child begged you to unschool based on THIS, wouldn't you tell your child that those are not the values that your family shares? Or would you just unschool, because your child begged you every day?

In the same way as you might think that not having a schedule or chores, waking up at noon, not knowing the multiplication table by heart etc is harmful, an unschooler might consider punishments / rewards, busy work, and 'assigned reading for 15 minutes a day' to be harmful.

[rightkindofme]

Unschooling is setting your kids up to be weird. This is something I am ok with as we start down the unschooling path. If my kid decides that being "normal" is very important to her... I would feel awful insisting that she remain separate from the rest of our society.

[Attila the Honey]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

Unschooling is setting your kids up to be weird. This is something I am ok with as we start down the unschooling path. If my kid decides that being "normal" is very important to her... I would feel awful insisting that she remain separate from the rest of our society.

I don't get this at all.  can you explain?  My daughter isn't 'weird' - no one would really know she unschools if we didn't tell them.  She's bright, happy, and likes most of the things kids her age like.   Also, she's not separate from society.  Unschoolers aren't hermits, most do all the things schoolers do - go to the store, the library, join playgroups, play with friends, see "normal" people on a daily basis.   

[orangefoot]

I am unsure how a child might 'naturally' choose school over unschooling. Do adults choose working on a factory assembly line over freedom if both offer the same rewards?

I can see that children want to do what other children do and that children feel frustrated by the current situation or want something new and seemingly exciting but the idea that a child would naturally gravitate towards 'no choice' as zinemama says, strikes me as odd.

I too am disorganised and would struggle if my children wanted to have a structured day with a school-like focus. All sorts of other areas of my life and theirs would be restricted by choosing that path and I don't think it is unfair to say that, to a great extent, my children have to muddle along with me. I have made many choices for all four of my children in the past and right from breastfeeding them to parenting them with respect and having my youngest nappy free, those things have fallen outside social norms. School is a social norm but not one that we or our children should feel is necessary or desirable.

Despite having one child still in school, I do believe that there are fundamental problems with schooling full stop. I would seriously struggle if my two younger children told me they wanted to go to school as I agree with marinewife that the experience can be detrimental even if my child isn't bullied.

I am not sure what you can do other than to keep talking and keep trying to tweak the day to find things that refresh him and lift his mood. I hope you come to a different part of the path which feels smoother soon.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by orangefoot 

Do adults choose working on a factory assembly line over freedom if both offer the same rewards?

But do they both offer the same rewards, in this child's case? Perhaps he's not free to interact socially with other children very much. Perhaps he doesn't get external acknowledgement and validation of his learning. Perhaps he doesn't get a daily rhythm and structure that he thinks he would like. Perhaps he doesn't get the independence from home and family he craves. Perhaps he doesn't get daily participation in team pursuits, whether through group learning projects of sports and PE. Those are different rewards and he may believe school can offer them. In my own family's case my eldest dd has attended school part-time for three years and has found there an unprecendented (for a school) degree of freedom and acceptance, and a few rewards that she was not able to get at home -- like some top-down structure, rules and expectations that encouraged her to follow through on her academic goals.

Miranda

[NellieKatz]

Your question reminded me of this article that I read from Diane Flynn Keith, called "Yes, My Grown Homeschooled Children Are Odd — And Yours Will Be Too!"  :-)

http://www.homefires.com/articles/odd_children.asp

Originally Posted by Attila the Honey 

I don't get this at all.  can you explain?  My daughter isn't 'weird' - no one would really know she unschools if we didn't tell them.  She's bright, happy, and likes most of the things kids her age like.   Also, she's not separate from society.  Unschoolers aren't hermits, most do all the things schoolers do - go to the store, the library, join playgroups, play with friends, see "normal" people on a daily basis.   

[LoriBelle]

Okay, so I don't have any kids yet (I'm currently expecting my first), but I've done a lot of thinking about educational choices, through this forum, through life experience, and through the several educational and developmental psychology courses I took in college.  I'm not a frequent poster because I'm not super super crunchy, and also because I'm not yet a mother, but I do read and lurk pretty avidly.  Take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

I think the reason people are saying let him go is that they see it as the natural extension of the philosophy behind unschooling - that is, letting the child lead the learning.  This philosophy is not one that most public schooling parents share, so public school parents would not be almost compelled by their educational philosophy to let a schooled child come home if the child so desired.  I do think your son is too young to make these kinds of decisions for himself, but then again, I don't think I am the kind of parent that would really go for unschooling either, so it's complicated.  I'll state for the record that I don't think you're obligated to bend your entire lifestyle in half to send your son to school at this age.  Public school parents don't have to quit their jobs just because their child has a vague idea that he'd like to homeschool, and you shouldn't have to do the equivalent, especially not when your 7.5 year old really has no idea what school is like (other than the next door neighbor's rose-colored rendition).

I do agree with previous posters that since you know what your son thinks he would like about public school (and I'm sure the reality is much different, but that's almost beside the point), you should try to compensate for any perceived deficits.  That means making efforts to socialize with more kids his own age and yes, to give him periodic breaks from his younger brother.  I think a co-op is an amazing idea.  It is just enough "school" without snuffing out his love for learning, especially since many co-ops focus on social stuff or exploratory stuff.  If your son doesn't like getting up that early for the secular one, just point out to him that if he were in regular school, he would be getting up at that time every single day.

Also, he may just be one of those kids who is into more structured learning.  I was certainly one of those kids.  I LOVED public school with its structure and tests, and that love never faded.  It probably helped that I had sort of an unschooling setup after I got home from school, with grandparents who were willing to explore ANY learning avenue with me.  It probably also helped that I basically taught myself to read at 3, so maybe I un-preschooled without even realizing.

Maybe that love of school is what the next door neighbor child is experiencing.  But just because the other kid loves school doesn't mean your son would.  Maybe get him some more structured workbooks?  Don't force him to do them; just give him the opportunity and see if he takes to them.  Homeschooling in the earlier years has to be about parent preference, but if your son is developing a preference for structured learning, I do feel that (though not his general desire to go to public school) should be honored as part of the sort of educational autonomy a parent tries to develop in his/her unschooling children (and really that any parents should try to instill in his/her children, regardless of schooling choice).

[SweetSilver]

School never kept me from being weird, but I found my place.  It was called "theater"!  I know what was meant by the original comment.  Yes, my kids will be a little weird.  At 6.5 and 4.5, they already are.  They don't know Dora from Diego, they know no other video games except "Angry Birds" that they play on their aunt's cell phone when they visit.  They have very little pop culture exposure, but probably more than some others in our crowd.  Unschooling will preserve this weirdness and probably isolate them a bit from their peers when they forge their own paths later on.  (We do gymnastics now, though, and will eventually join other activities packed with schooled kids.)  They might even be mad at me for it.  I was mad at my mom for some of her choices that affected us, so that will be nothing new for the next generation.

     How big is this fight?  How much does it detract from your day?  How much energy do you spend battling this?  Is it wearing on you?  If this remains an issue, how much are you willing to dig in your heels?  I don't think an ongoing fight at home will be worth the benefits of homeschooling, especially since some kids try school and the rosiness soon wears off.  However, if it's still a low-key issue, if it isn't taking time away from home"schooling" (whatever that entails), if you think this problem will blow over with some adjustments to your approach, then stick with the unschooling.

[stik]

Originally Posted by orangefoot 

I am unsure how a child might 'naturally' choose school over unschooling. Do adults choose working on a factory assembly line over freedom if both offer the same rewards?

As a historian, I am intrigued by this question.  From a historical perspective, those who choose to work on a factory assembly line are free.  In the US, when the 13th amendment ended slavery, one choice that many freed slaves made was the choice to migrate to industrialized cities in the north and work on factory assembly lines.  Assembly line workers have not always been treated well in the US, and for a major chunk of the 20th century, these workers were at the forefront of organizing improvements to pay and working conditions that continue to benefit all workers in the US.  As a consequence, factory assembly line work can, and in the US, often does, offer a wage that provides freedom - freedom from dependence on others, freedom from poverty.  The golden age of the US economy was when domestic manufacturing was at its height, and large numbers of Americans worked on factory assembly lines.  Those workers celebrated their freedom and saw the rewards of their work on factory assembly lines as one component of that freedom.  They saw the continuation of their work, and the preservation of the USA's manufacturing capacity, as vital to the protection of their freedom.  

What occupations do you associate with freedom?  What are the rewards of freedom?  What do you think people choose when they are free?

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

Unschooling is setting your kids up to be weird. This is something I am ok with as we start down the unschooling path. If my kid decides that being "normal" is very important to her... I would feel awful insisting that she remain separate from the rest of our society.

It doesn't necessarily set your kids up to be weird. At least it doesn't seem to in my world. One of the best things about unschooling is that it allows kids who are inherently weird to be themselves; my kids understand that and my two most eccentric kids are grateful that unschooling allows them the freedom to be their own weird selves and pursue their own weird passions. But I think what you're describing is a scenario where school becomes this mystique-laden experience that the unschooled child realizes everyone but him has a piece of, and therefore feels excluded and set apart and "abnormal" for not understanding school and its culture.

We've always had a fair bit to do with the local public school -- mostly because this is a very small town, and a lot of community events and resources are held there. There's no mystique in school for my kids and I think that's great -- they know what goes on there, they hear their friends talk, they see school in action from time to time, they know about projects and assignments and quizzes and buses and late slips, they spend a fair amount of time in the school building, in short they get it. If my kids decided that being "normal" was very important to them, school is not anywhere near to the first thing they would think of to make it so. I think they'd define normal as licensed merchandise, plastic toys, video game systems, interest in pop icons, processed food, rules about bedtimes and such-like. Oh, and school. Maybe.

Miranda

[rightkindofme]

What I mean by weird is: there is a standard set of experiences that "most" Americans go through.  By keeping your kids outside that experience you are creating a situation where they will always be on the outside of conversations when adults sit around and talk about the "universal" experience of childhood.  Let me say again, I don't consider that a bad thing inherently and I am unschooling my kids.  But it's a real thing.  I have pieces of that because I had a very disrupted education.  I went to graduate school eventually as an adult, but I went to three semesters of high school before finishing on independent study.  I never took the PSAT or SAT or AP or or or or.  I have had countless times in my university experience where people have been shocked and kind of insulting that I managed to get into college without these "mandatory" experiences.   Obviously... they aren't mandatory.  But they are *usual*.  At parties I'm shocked at how many 30-somethings want to sit down and compare their education experiences.  It is really baffling to me.  They are trying to find common ground with new people and that is one of the easiest ways to do it.  I don't have the same kind of background so I am noticeably left out of these conversations.  So will my kids.  I think it's ok.

However, if my kids start asking to go to school... I will let them.  I don't think there is any age at which I will flat tell them no.  I will highly discourage it because as a former public school teacher I have rather large idealogical issues with the public education system.  I would probably first try to find a private school that comes closer to my ideals, but I'm not sure it will be a financial option without me returning to work full time and I won't force my second kid to go to school so that my first kid can have an educational experience she wants.  It will be complicated.  The public school directly across the street from our house is substandard.  There is no other word to describe it. But even if my kid did really really really want to go there... I could continue to supplement her education at home to ensure she is getting what I consider important.  And really, as an unschooler.... I'm not going to tell her she doesn't get to direct her education.  It would seem hypocritical to me.  "You can direct your education only if you want to do what I want you to do."  Yeah... that's not my approach.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

What I mean by weird is: there is a standard set of experiences that "most" Americans go through.  By keeping your kids outside that experience you are creating a situation where they will always be on the outside of conversations when adults sit around and talk about the "universal" experience of childhood. 

Okay, maybe I just don't get this because I'm Canadian. This is totally not my experience. I can't remember the last time I discussed my school experiences with adults.

School culture doesn't seem to be anywhere near as strong here as what you've described. Yes, 98% of children attend, but there's none of the rah! rah! business of pep rallies and school sports and teams and of giving your allegience to the educational institution you attend. School is not all-consuming in the way it seems to be in the US. 

Miranda

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

Okay, maybe I just don't get this because I'm Canadian. This is totally not my experience. I can't remember the last time I discussed my school experiences with adults.

School culture doesn't seem to be anywhere near as strong here as what you've described. Yes, 98% of children attend, but there's none of the rah! rah! business of pep rallies and school sports and teams and of giving your allegience to the educational institution you attend. School is not all-consuming in the way it seems to be in the US. 

Miranda

Fair enough!  I uhm, do kind of talk out of my  sometimes because I have limited exposure to other cultures.  I'm glad that you haven't had this experience.  It sucks.

[MarineWife]

I've missed a lot with the holiday weekend and all.

WRT being weird, I attended school from the age of 3 until I graduated from college at 28 and I am most definitely weird. My 7yo ds is not weird at all compared to other kids his age. He has he same interests and likes. He plays well with all of them. He only feels left out when this one friend brags about school. He has never mentioned that any of the other kids have said or done anything to make him feel that way.

This is not an ongoing fight but it continues to be something we talk about. He has been doing "school" work at home in the form of workbooks and I think is starting to realize that he knows at least as much as his schooled friends, if not more. Last night he started talking about forming a rock band. He said he is going to write his own songs and has already come up with a couple of lines. He wants to go to music school now. I will be looking into guitar and/or singing lessons for him. I don't know if I can afford them but will see what I can do.

I think someone may have said something a while back about me not giving my child the structure he seems to want because that's just not me. I never said that. I said I have come to accept that I'm not good at following schedules and being structured. That doesn't mean that I would refuse to provide that for my child as much as possible. Seems like there is a lot of hostility toward either homeschooling or unschooling. Seems a bit off that that would come up in the unschooling forum.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

What I mean by weird is: there is a standard set of experiences that "most" Americans go through. 

Like growing up without a tv and having everyone in college sitting around reminiscing about Sesame Street or Captain Kangaroo...

But I don't think it's a big deal.  Ds knows a lot of homeschoolers and is a well adjusted kid.  He isn't going to feel awkward when that sort of thing happens to him. 

Originally Posted by MarineWife 
I think someone may have said something a while back about me not giving my child the structure he seems to want because that's just not me. I never said that. I said I have come to accept that I'm not good at following schedules and being structured. That doesn't mean that I would refuse to provide that for my child as much as possible. Seems like there is a lot of hostility toward either homeschooling or unschooling. Seems a bit off that that would come up in the unschooling forum.

People forget, don't realize, or don't care that this is a support only forum.
 

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

Like growing up without a tv and having everyone in college sitting around reminiscing about Sesame Street or Captain Kangaroo...

But I don't think it's a big deal.  Ds knows a lot of homeschoolers and is a well adjusted kid.  He isn't going to feel awkward when that sort of thing happens to him. 

People forget, don't realize, or don't care that this is a support only forum.

I also grew up without those shows.  And I feel weird because I have very little "culture" in common with most people in my age group.  

I didn't realize that saying, "As someone who is starting on the unschooling path I would let my kids choose public school because *to me* that is part of unschooling" was unsupportive.  Ok, I didn't say that verbatim but I'm not going to repost what I did say.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

I didn't realize that saying, "As someone who is starting on the unschooling path I would let my kids choose public school because *to me* that is part of unschooling" was unsupportive.  Ok, I didn't say that verbatim but I'm not going to repost what I did say.

Are you the one who accused me of refusing to provide my child with something he wanted within the confines of homeschooling? I don't think it was but it was 2 or 3 days ago that I read that. That's what I was referring to. I don't see the suggestion of letting the child try school if that's what they really want unsupportive. There's a difference between saying that and accusing someone of something without even understanding what was said.

That being said, I do think that in a forum that is supposed to be in support of unschooling, offering solutions at home rather than initially jumping to, "Let him go to school," is more helpful and supportive. While letting the child choose how, when, where and what they learn is a big part of unschooling, school is like the anti-unschool because it instantly restricts all of that. Even though the child has chosen school, I don't think he is unschooling anymore while in school because he doesn't have that choice anymore. Of course, there would always be the choice to leave school and go back to unschooling. So, to me those two things are not the same. Does that make sense?

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

I also grew up without those shows.  And I feel weird because I have very little "culture" in common with most people in my age group.  

I didn't realize that saying, "As someone who is starting on the unschooling path I would let my kids choose public school because *to me* that is part of unschooling" was unsupportive.  Ok, I didn't say that verbatim but I'm not going to repost what I did say.

Personally, I was thinking of other people earlier in the thread. I don't mind people saying what they think they would do if they ever get to the same bridge as the OP.  But there were some other people who seemed hostile toward the OP that she wants support/advice on unschooling a child who is interested in school and that her first course of action isn't to stop unschooling put him in school.  Some unschoolers believe that letting the child choose to go to school is following an unschooling philosophy.  But once they are in full time school, I don't really think one can call it that anymore.  So it's really more just following the child's lead than unschooling since it is letting the child choose to not unschool.  I don't care whether people send their kids to school.  I did.  I just don't understand why they still want to be considered unschoolers after they do so.