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Poisoned In the Womb - Page 2

post #21 of 51

I was pregnant in 2009, during the height of the H1N1 scare. I was a patient at my state's only birth center, which was 1 1/2 hours drive each way....anyways, they never mentioned getting the flu shot, but there was a nice flu shot poster in the exam rooms.  I vividly remember the insanity in the news over H1N1, and how pregnant women were urged to get the shot. I almost felt like a target, like they were targeting pregnant women in particular. 

post #22 of 51
Thread Starter 

i was just reading about how the ACIP are telling women to get the DTaP after the 20th week of pregnancy and how its changed from the previously recommended postpartum period. 

 

http://www.pediatricsupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=84982

post #23 of 51
This is why it is said, "The love of money is the root of all evil.".
post #24 of 51

i'd just like to point out that rhogam is much different than the other vaxxes mentioned. 

we don't vax but i do, have, and will get the rhogam injection while pregnant. 

 

i was also preggo in 2009 when the h1n1 scare was about.  it was weird that every story you'd hear or sensational news article involved the DEATH of a pregnant woman. 

post #25 of 51
I chose, with my doctor's okay, to not get the H1N1 vaccination at all. I am very sensitive to vaccinations, and can't even take the DTP vaccine because of severe reactions. Thimerosal is meant to cause a stronger immune reaction, so it just doesn't seem wise for me to use it. Aside from the sensitivity issue and my issues with the ingredients being unproven, the flu vaccine only protects you from last year's strains. Kind of pointless in most cases.
post #26 of 51

When pregnant with dd my due date was in the end of 2009, in the middle of the swine flu scare.  I refused both seasonal and h1n1 shot, I never felt comfortable getting the flu shot.  Now if I only educated myself about all vaccines, including children immunization before I gave birth to dd.  duh.gif My doctor and nurses all thought I was plain crazy when I refused Tamiflu (and h1n1 again) when I was exposed to swine flu. I have never gotten sick.  Back then they didn't offer any other vaccines during pregnancy and I'm pretty sure I didn't have great immunity to rubella because I was offered the mmr at the hospital (from my blurry memories I remember them talking about rubella immunity).

post #27 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer78 View Post

When pregnant with dd my due date was in the end of 2009, in the middle of the swine flu scare.  I refused both seasonal and h1n1 shot, I never felt comfortable getting the flu shot.  Now if I only educated myself about all vaccines, including children immunization before I gave birth to dd.  duh.gif My doctor and nurses all thought I was plain crazy when I refused Tamiflu (and h1n1 again) when I was exposed to swine flu. I have never gotten sick.  Back then they didn't offer any other vaccines during pregnancy and I'm pretty sure I didn't have great immunity to rubella because I was offered the mmr at the hospital (from my blurry memories I remember them talking about rubella immunity).


i dont think tamiflu has been tested for safety during pregnancy either...

 

post #28 of 51
I was pregnant in 2009 and I got the h1n1 vax. Three pregnant women in Kentucky had died the month before I got the vax, and two women who had the virus in our town lost babies. I wouldnt do it again after the research I did, but I didnt know any better and dead women and babies will scare the crap out of a first time mom.
post #29 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

I was pregnant in 2009 and I got the h1n1 vax. Three pregnant women in Kentucky had died the month before I got the vax, and two women who had the virus in our town lost babies. I wouldnt do it again after the research I did, but I didnt know any better and dead women and babies will scare the crap out of a first time mom.

is your baby okay developmentally? (just curious)
 

 

post #30 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameragirl View Post

I chose, with my doctor's okay, to not get the H1N1 vaccination at all. I am very sensitive to vaccinations, and can't even take the DTP vaccine because of severe reactions. Thimerosal is meant to cause a stronger immune reaction, so it just doesn't seem wise for me to use it. Aside from the sensitivity issue and my issues with the ingredients being unproven, the flu vaccine only protects you from last year's strains. Kind of pointless in most cases.


 Im not disagreeing with you about unproven ingredients and the flu vaccine at all, but I wanted to address the bolded. Thimerosal is NOT an adjuvant (stimulates stronger immune response), it is a preservative. Not that that makes it ok!! Aluminum is an adjuvant.

post #31 of 51

Ohh I'm so glad vaccines weren't routinely offered to pregnant women when I was pregnant with DS. I hadn't researched the issue back then and would have blindly followed the obgyn's advice. Now with DD my midwives didn't even mention it. Maybe because I first saw an obgyn who fired me for non-compliance and it said in my records patient refuses flu and TDaP (but that's not why I was fired- was fired for refusing doppler checks).

post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa1970 View Post

Especially since the flu shots and h1n1 shots have been linked to loss of baby inutero. I am on a loss board and there has been posted articles about it and women posting wondering if their babies die in utero because of those shots.


That's so sad that women are feeling guilty and wondering if their great loss was caused by something they chose.  But I am pretty sure there has never been any evidence of an actual link; if you know of a study or data set that shows women who got the vaccine were more likely to lose their pregnancies than women who did not, please share it.

 

I am aware of the websites and articles full of anecdotes of women who got the shot and blamed it for miscarriages that happened anywhere from the same day to a month or so later.  But  a huge number of pregnancies end in miscarriage, and close to half of pregnant women in the US got the vaccine - based on those numbers alone we should expect thousands and thousands of miscarriages in the period following the vaccine - many even starting the same day.  The vaccine could have been just a shot of saline and it would be the same.  You could track down a million or so pregnant women over the next few weeks or months and convince them to dance the hokey pokey and expect that a fair number of them would start miscarrying later that very same day, and many more in the next few weeks.  But that doesn't indicate that the hokey pokey is dangerous to pregnant women.  You'd need to compare rates of pregnancy loss in women who danced the hokey pokey to women who did not to know if there is even any correlation between the hokey pokey and miscarriage, not just know that some miscarriages happened after the dance. 

post #33 of 51

banghead.gif duh.gif Hokey Pokey?

Vaccines cause no harm, only good.....women should not trust their instincts, but should trust the vaccines, because there have not been any studies to prove harm. (Will there ever be a study that proves harm?) Until the studies show evidence of harm, pregnant women should continue to inject themselves. Also, they should not do the hokey pokey dance while pregnant.

This is the Twilight Zone, where everything is backwards. Backward Land.

post #34 of 51

Flu Shot Coverage, Vaccine-Related Miscarriage Rates Rise Expontentially

 

 

 

Quote:
VAERS showed that in the two years preceding the CDC's recommendation for all pregnant women to be vaccinated against influenza and H1N1, 7 miscarriages per year were reported as attributable to vaccination.  In 2009, that number rose to 178.  Health statisticians who use reporting methods like VAERS have shown that between 10-90% of cases are missed due to under-reporting, so they typically corroborate the information with another source and use a formula that gives a best-estimate of the actual numbers involved.  By using this formula, NCOWs estimated that 1588 miscarriages (within a range of 946 to 3587) in 2009 were associated with pregnant mothers who were vaccinated with the H1N1 or combined influenza shot.

 

Then there is this research:

 

UCSF team finds new source of immune cells during pregnancy

 

 

 

Quote:

Until now, the fetal and infant immune system had been thought to be simply an immature form of the adult system, one that responds differently because of a lack of exposure to immune threats from the environment. The new research has unveiled an entirely different immune system in the fetus at mid-term that is derived from a completely different set of stem cells than the adult system.

“In the fetus, we found that there is an immune system whose job it is to teach the fetus to be tolerant of everything it sees, including its mother and its own organs,” said Joseph M. McCune, MD, PhD, a professor in the UCSF Division of Experimental Medicine who is a co-senior author on the paper. “After birth, a new immune system arises from a different stem cell that instead has the job of fighting everything foreign.”

 

post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post



is your baby okay developmentally? (just curious)
 

 


So far, so good. She has hit every milestone before the "normal time" and has over 50 words at 16 months.
post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

banghead.gif duh.gif Hokey Pokey?

Vaccines cause no harm, only good.....women should not trust their instincts, but should trust the vaccines, because there have not been any studies to prove harm. (Will there ever be a study that proves harm?) Until the studies show evidence of harm, pregnant women should continue to inject themselves. Also, they should not do the hokey pokey dance while pregnant.

This is the Twilight Zone, where everything is backwards. Backward Land.


I know you are angry - but pers might be correct.

 

I would NOT get a flu shot while pregnant because it has not been proven safe. Proven safe, and safer than alternatives, would be my standard of care.

 

The flu vax has not been proven to increase the miscarriage rate as far as I know. If half the pregnant women in the USA get a flu shot, and the flu shot causes a higher chance of miscarriage, I would expect a rise in miscarriage rates that I have have not seen.  It is possible I missed it, though.

 

I am going to read the link above to see what it says.  

 

Edited to add:  just did a quick google search of flu vaccine and miscarriage rates.  There is quite a bit of stuff.  Add it to the pile of "stuff one has to research to make a decision  dizzy.gif"  

 


Edited by purslaine - 8/3/11 at 12:37pm
post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

banghead.gif duh.gif Hokey Pokey?

Vaccines cause no harm, only good.....women should not trust their instincts, but should trust the vaccines, because there have not been any studies to prove harm. (Will there ever be a study that proves harm?) Until the studies show evidence of harm, pregnant women should continue to inject themselves. Also, they should not do the hokey pokey dance while pregnant.

This is the Twilight Zone, where everything is backwards. Backward Land.


Umm... I think you really missed the point. 

 

Yes, hokey pokey as an example of something for which it is very obvious that miscarriages happening soon after dancing it would be completely coincidental.  I could have used reciting the preamble to the constitution backwards, participating in a spelling bee, reading Harry Potter, whatever.  The point is that these things do not cause pregnancy loss, but if you have a very large number of pregnant women do them, you can expect many will miscarry very soon after simply because they were already just about to have a miscarriage when they danced, recited, read, whatever, not because those things caused them.  The miscarriages would have happened anyway.  

 

Here is a good article explaining it better in the case of H1N1 from back in 2009 when it was a cocern:  http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/49017/title/Science_%2B_the_Public__H1N1_vaccine_Counting_side_effects  

 

Could the H1N1 vaccine have caused miscarriage?   It's certainly not impossible.  While serious side effects are thankfully rare with the commonly used vaccines, vaccines certainly can have side effects.   But to show that miscarriage was one for this particular vaccine, at the very least you'd need data showing that the rate of pregnancy loss in the vaccinated group was higher than expected based on size of the group.  Not just anecdotes of women who miscarried, as so many women do, but who happened to have recently had a vaccine when it happened.  

post #38 of 51


Well, reports of miscarriage after vaccination rose exponentially, for sure. 

 

But VAERS is an early warning system for side effects to rare to be caught in pre-realease testing.  It can indicate a possible problem that warrants further study to see if it is really happening.   It can not be used to calculate actual rates of side effects/reactions, and rates of reporting can be influenced by other things besides the rates of actual reactions. H1N1 vaccine panic is a perfect example of that. 

 

In previous years, getting a flu shot is not a big deal for most women who choose it - after all, a lot of women do every year, and some of them have even done it before with prior pregnancies which turned out just fine.  So many women don't think much of it after getting it, and are not very likely to make a connection to a miscarriage that happens several days or weeks later.  If they got it at a flu shot clinic rather than their OB and haven't been back to the OB yet, they may not even remember to mention the shot to the OB as they are dealing with the miscarriage and are unlikely to report the miscarriage to the clinic.  

 

Now take the H1N1 vaccine and all the fearmongering as to if it is really safe or not, and then reports of miscarriages after it start going viral.  Of course hearing these things is going to make women who miscarried after the vaccine wonder if the vaccine caused it.  And then there are all these discussions on blogs and the net and news reports saying "if you miscarried after, make sure your doctor reports it to VAERS, or report it yourself" ... and so it is no surprise at all that reports go up!

 

VAERS can't show if a vaccine is safe or not, only serve as a warning that there may be a problem worth further looking into.  To show a relationship between the vaccine and miscarriages, you need to look at the actual miscarriage rates, information that is beyond the scope of what VAERS can give. 

 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Then there is this research:

 

UCSF team finds new source of immune cells during pregnancy

 

 

That is very interesting, and I look forward to finding out more about it and what it means for vaccination and immunity in pregnancy/babies.  But it is not at all evidence that women who got the H1N1 vaccine had increased rates of miscarriage. 

post #39 of 51

"Umm... I think you really missed the point."


No Pers, I did not miss your point. I got your point.  Surely, doing the hokey pokey can not be blamed for miscarriages.  I  simply did not appreciate your comparison, although I know you were just using hokey pokey as a silly example. As if to dismiss the thousands of concerned women who question the safety of the vaccine. Your comparison was the same type of humor as this:  "Silly women who have lost your babies, the shot cannot be to blame! Why, if we blame the shot, we can blame miscarriages on just about anything, like doing the hokey pokey or watching too much tv! See how silly it all is?"

When dealing with stories of loss, using humor is not the best choice! To dismiss the anecdotes of women who believe their losses were caused by a drug, well, what can I say? It is a grave concern, and I guess I'm the only one who disliked your "lighthearted, harmless" comparison.

 

 

post #40 of 51


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post

 

That is very interesting, and I look forward to finding out more about it and what it means for vaccination and immunity in pregnancy/babies.  But it is not at all evidence that women who got the H1N1 vaccine had increased rates of miscarriage. 



Pardon me if I don't think that Big Pharma, government agencies, medical associations and the doctors they influence will change their approach in vaccinating pregnant women and newborns. I am sure the implication of this research will be ignored and they will go on recommending vaccines to pregnant women, especially the flu vax. If by any chance this research and its implications becomes well known, I fear the researchers will be vilified, as always happens to those that threaten the status quo.

 

Has anyone posted the link to Hilary Butler's excellent three part series Vaccines and neonatal immune development?

 

 

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