Would You Consider Completely Lieing on the Health Forms for School?

[Xerxella]

My completely non vaxed kids are 2 and 4.  As we start to look at public Kindergarten for my son, I'm looking over the forms. 

I know I'll probably just state my religious beliefs and get an exemption based on that, but I can't help thinking it'd be SO much easier to just fill out the form as it's "supposed" to look and sign a non existant doctor's name.  I live in a metro area and I can't imagine they call all the doctors on all the kids that come into the school.  I imagine they just check to see that the form filled out and they file it. 

NO ONE knows we don't vaccinate.  We haven't told friends or neighbors or any one. 

And if we were caught, so what?  To sign a name for someone that doesn't exist isn't forgery.  And, there's no law saying you have to tell the truth on school forms.  Overall, the only places you legally can't lie is under oath in a court of law. 

Any lawyers out there?  Whadya think? 

[Marnica]

Personally I would not do that - unless totally backed into a corner and felt I had NO other options whatsoever.  On our school form, the doctor has to provide their state license number. You have no idea if the school checks those kinds of things or not. It is easy to check those types of things on any state's dept of public health website.

The other issues is that IF there is an outbreak of a VPD in the school wouldn't you want your child to stay home until it was over (depends on what it was I suppose)? I know for certain things I would. while it would be a huge inconvenience - I would do what I had to do to protect my child. If the school thinks your child is vaccinated - how would you explain keeping them out of school for a couple of weeks. I guess you could lie about that as well? I don't know - forgeing documents seems a bit extreme when you could file an exemption.

[SilverMoon010]

I'm certainly not a lawyer but I personally wouldn't do that either.  Who knows what can of worms that could open up later on and issues it would cause down the road.  Are you planning to keep that lie up all throughout their school years? If not, you'll have to claim a religious exemption at some point anyway. I feel you may get caught at some point for lying. I would be careful because these days there is lack of privacy in whatever you do so while it may seem they may not check up on all children's health documents, if they find something suspicious they just might, especially the way they are about vaxes today. Who knows.

I would much rather be up front about your religious beliefs from the beginning. I also agree with Marnica on the potential VPD outbreak in the school. I'm assuming by you telling them that your children are fully vaxed, they have no reason to inform you of the outbreak and the ability to keep them home from school.  Forging a signature, fake or not, is not the way to go IMO.

Edited by SilverMoon010 - 6/30/11 at 7:06am

[Owen'nZoe]

Agreeing with the previous posters for all the reasons they mentioned. Also, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding of forgery is a bit different than yours - my understanding has always been than any falsification of documents with the intent to deceive is technically forgery - that's why, say, a replica of ancient Greek pottery passed off as the real thing is considered a forgery, even though a known artist hasn't been copied.

[ma2two]

I wouldn't do that unless there were no legal exemption process or if I didn't think the exemption would be granted. I don't think you'd have any problem getting a religious exemption where you live.

Just to keep things simple, I've lied on camp forms where I knew they wouldn't be checking up on it and when no doctor's signature was required, but I wouldn't on school forms because that would require a fake signature and is a lie that you would have to continue and add to for 12 years. You'd have to keep on doing it when new vaccines were added to the required schedule. Over 12 years, I think there would be a big chance that you would get caught. And I think it would be a lot more trouble than it is worth.

I disagree, thought about the outbreak thing. I wonder which diseases the previous posters would want their kids to be protected from? I would have no problem with my kids being exposed to the following diseases for which the school may require vaccines: chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis A, and pertussis. What's left? Hepatitis B and tetanus, for which there can't be outbreaks, and diphtheria and polio, for which there just won't be outbreaks.

[Chloebelle]

Originally Posted by ma2two 

I wouldn't do that unless there were no legal exemption process or if I didn't think the exemption would be granted. I don't think you'd have any problem getting a religious exemption where you live.

Just to keep things simple, I've lied on camp forms where I knew they wouldn't be checking up on it and when no doctor's signature was required, but I wouldn't on school forms because that would require a fake signature and is a lie that you would have to continue and add to for 12 years. You'd have to keep on doing it when new vaccines were added to the required schedule. Over 12 years, I think there would be a big chance that you would get caught. And I think it would be a lot more trouble than it is worth.

I disagree, thought about the outbreak thing. I wonder which diseases the previous posters would want their kids to be protected from? I would have no problem with my kids being exposed to the following diseases for which the school may require vaccines: chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis A, and pertussis. What's left? Hepatitis B and tetanus, for which there can't be outbreaks, and diphtheria and polio, for which there just won't be outbreaks.

I agree with this, especially the bolded. I also think that if there was an outbreak, they would notify ALL parents, not just unvaxed ones. Hiding my kids away at home would seem almost hypocritical if there ever was an outbreak of a VPD. Either I trust their immune systems or I don't. Either I trust vaccines to protect against illness or I don't. I know it's not that simple, but I tend to work on stimulating their immune systems if I fear they may be exposed to illness as opposed to running from it.

To the OP, I understand why it's tempting to lie. I hate that they even put us in the position to have to consider it. Sounds like you shouldn't have too many issues with the religious exemption in your state, so I would just go with that.

[Owen'nZoe]

Another thought - some children are not immunized because they are immunocompromised, or because they were medically unable to receive the vax. Their parents' decision on whether to keep their children home during an outbreak might be affected by whether there are other children in the class who are not immunized. It is only fair to provide them with accurate information to make their decision.

[MyBoysBlue]

It can't be legal for other parents to know the vaccination status of other kids in the class.  I would be pissed if the school was handing out my child's medical information(in AB the school itself doesn't even have access to that info).  I can see the school telling a parent if there is a non vaccinated child in their child's class but I can't see it being legal to give out that child's name.  But all schools must have a few kids that aren't vaxed so it would be more appropriate for the school to give out stats on the number of non vaxed in the whole school.  They don't just stay in one classroom.  What about shared areas.

[Xerxella]

I know I won't, but it's such a PITA and I'm so not looking forward to the questions and the staff staring at my like I have 2 heads and like I'm one of those crazy non vaxers.  I want to yell at them that I'm also one of those crazy extended breastfeeders, non cio-er, gentle discipliners.  Argh!  I'm so crazy I actually want my children to feel safe in this world and loved by their parents in the daytime and night time and understand the natural or logical consequences for their actions.  It's crazy, I know.  Sigh.  Sorry for the tangent. 

Back on the topic, I do agree ma2two, none of the potential outbreaks scare me.  Those are regular childhood diseases that I wouldn't keep my kids home from school to try to avoid  (besides by the time I hear about it would probably be too late to avoid anyways).  Also, I read through the manual and if there was ever a case of any contagious disease in the school, all parents would be notified.  (As I feel is right.) 

So, I also had to look up forgery.  And, you have to have intent to defraud and when I looked up defraud it you have to deceive or cheat with the purpose of causing financial loss to another or bring about some financial gain to oneself.  So, it's definitely not forgery because there's no financial gain.  But, there's so many other laws and, of course, I don't know them all, so even if it's not forgery it could be illegal somewhere else.  (But, I don't see how.) 

But, I guess it's just an academic question since I will file for an exemption based on my religious beliefs.  I agree with what others said, that the lie would have to be perpetuated for 12 years and what about if my son started saying the truth when it comes up in science class or wherever.  He'd probably be the one to spill the beans. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Xerxella 

I know I won't, but it's such a PITA and I'm so not looking forward to the questions and the staff staring at my like I have 2 heads and like I'm one of those crazy non vaxers.  I want to yell at them that I'm also one of those crazy extended breastfeeders, non cio-er, gentle discipliners.  Argh!  I'm so crazy I actually want my children to feel safe in this world and loved by their parents in the daytime and night time and understand the natural or logical consequences for their actions.  It's crazy, I know.  Sigh.  Sorry for the tangent. 

It might not be so big a deal.  Different places vary.  In my area, I need to get a form online, fill it out and have it notarised at city hall.  I then forward it to the health unit.  It is a couple hours work - at most.  The school did not care - they were just happy I complied with their form filling-out.

On another note, you might want the school to know in no uncertain terms that you do not vax.  

There are several vaccinations done here at school.  I obviously do not want DD to have them.   Them knowing we do not vax gives me some assurance they will not vax her by accident  (I write it on every health form we get - "do not vaccinate".)  It seems like every couple of months on MDC someone is reporting that their kid was vaxxed or almost vaxxed by accident.  Some people even keep their kids home on vax days.  Reduce the risk - have a paper trail.

Edited by purslaine - 7/1/11 at 7:55am

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Xerxella 

I know I won't, but it's such a PITA and I'm so not looking forward to the questions and the staff staring at my like I have 2 heads and like I'm one of those crazy non vaxers.  I want to yell at them that I'm also one of those crazy extended breastfeeders, non cio-er, gentle discipliners.  Argh!  I'm so crazy I actually want my children to feel safe in this world and loved by their parents in the daytime and night time and understand the natural or logical consequences for their actions.  It's crazy, I know.  Sigh.  Sorry for the tangent. 

Back on the topic, I do agree ma2two, none of the potential outbreaks scare me.  Those are regular childhood diseases that I wouldn't keep my kids home from school to try to avoid  (besides by the time I hear about it would probably be too late to avoid anyways).  Also, I read through the manual and if there was ever a case of any contagious disease in the school, all parents would be notified.  (As I feel is right.) 

So, I also had to look up forgery.  And, you have to have intent to defraud and when I looked up defraud it you have to deceive or cheat with the purpose of causing financial loss to another or bring about some financial gain to oneself.  So, it's definitely not forgery because there's no financial gain.  But, there's so many other laws and, of course, I don't know them all, so even if it's not forgery it could be illegal somewhere else.  (But, I don't see how.) 

But, I guess it's just an academic question since I will file for an exemption based on my religious beliefs.  I agree with what others said, that the lie would have to be perpetuated for 12 years and what about if my son started saying the truth when it comes up in science class or wherever.  He'd probably be the one to spill the beans. 

 Try looking up the definition of "fraud."  Here are the elements of fraud:

Common law fraud has nine elements:^[3][4]

1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

I think lying on a vaccination form would qualify.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe 

Another thought - some children are not immunized because they are immunocompromised, or because they were medically unable to receive the vax. Their parents' decision on whether to keep their children home during an outbreak might be affected by whether there are other children in the class who are not immunized. It is only fair to provide them with accurate information to make their decision.

 But that's the thing - it would not be that parents' decision. Any unvaxed child whether immunocomprimised or not will be barred from school (if the local health dept deems it necessary during an outbreak) until the outbreak is over and they are told they can return. It is not a choice.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Chloebelle 

I agree with this, especially the bolded. I also think that if there was an outbreak, they would notify ALL parents, not just unvaxed ones. Hiding my kids away at home would seem almost hypocritical if there ever was an outbreak of a VPD. Either I trust their immune systems or I don't. Either I trust vaccines to protect against illness or I don't. I know it's not that simple, but I tend to work on stimulating their immune systems if I fear they may be exposed to illness as opposed to running from it.

To the OP, I understand why it's tempting to lie. I hate that they even put us in the position to have to consider it. Sounds like you shouldn't have too many issues with the religious exemption in your state, so I would just go with that.

I wanted to address the bolded since I believe I was the one who said in certain circumstances I may keep my child home (thats if I lied which I wouldn't and I actually had the option of sending him!). The only diseases where I may keep him home is pertussis and possibly measles. I don't feel it's hypocritical to be concerned about one's child cathcing a VPD that could possibly be severe. I think you can trust in and build your child's immune system to the best of your ability and still not want to intentionally expose them to something that has the potential to cause harm - I don't think that is running from anything and I don't find the issue to be that black and white. It's also not that black and white in terms of trusting the ability of a vaccine to prevent an illness. Lets take the two diseases I happen to be concerned about. I do not feel that the DTaP is partularly effective in preventing illness which is one of the reasons I do not get it for my son. The measles vaccine (mmr) on the other hand - I feel is actually highly effective at preventing measles, but my concern about the safety of the mmr far outweighs this fact for me - which is why I don't get it for my DS.
 

[SilverMoon010]

Like Marnica said, it's not so black and white.  I feel like I should respond too because I also said the same thing about the outbreaks.  I am just a very protective parent.   CP and other things are no big deal and it does all depend on what the outbreak is as to whether I would be concerned or not, the age of the child, etc.   I wouldn't worry about pertussis at his age or the measles even, but a known outbreak, not sure how I'd feel.  If he got measles in passing, fine, I would take care of him like I'm supposed to and wouldn't be worried, but if there was an outbreak where I know he had not been exposed to yet, not sure if I would want to intentionally expose it to him at this age.   As I mentioned in another thread, I am not afraid of the VPDs and if my son were to catch one, I am comfortable he will come out just fine from it because he has a healthy immune system.  He's still very young, however.   When he gets older I'm sure I'll feel differently and wouldn't care about outbreaks so much.

The thing is is that our choices are to either get the vaccines or take our chances with the diseases out there, IMO both options stink BUT the risks of vaccinating far outweighs the risk of the diseases IMO.  It's a risk nonetheless but I know 100% I don't want to risk the vaccines.  If I was afraid of the diseases so much that I would be hiding my son from them then I would have had vaccinated him.  He's most certainly not in a bubble as he is involved in playdates, the Little Gym, around cousins all the time.  He is around all kinds of kids.    He's my first and I just do whatever I can to protect him, that's all. To me, it's just a matter of being new to parenting.  Doesn't mean I'm a hypocrit.  I'm sure I'll be more relaxed with my 2nd (hopefully). It's just a matter of growing as a parent and coming into your own with experience.

Edited by SilverMoon010 - 7/1/11 at 9:06am

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

 Try looking up the definition of "fraud."  Here are the elements of fraud:

Common law fraud has nine elements:^[3][4]

1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

I think lying on a vaccination form would qualify.

a) Does Illinois use the common law definition of fraud? I don't care enough to look into it, but common law is not necessarily applicable.

b) Assuming common law does apply, according to (9) the plaintiff would need to suffer damages. Who is the plaintiff? The school? It didn't suffer damages (likely) and that is who/what was lied to. Parents of other children? Their kids would need to get sick from the non-vaxed individual (good luck proving that with the same strain of illness going around the school) and suffer damages. Plus, they were not lied to- the school was.

[Casha'sMommy]

I really don't think anyone is going to look at you like you have 2 heads. I was just assisting a friend in this process and I told her this very thing, there are so many people in local schools everywhere that are filing exemptions that I think the office looks at those the same as you're suggesting they look at the other forms. They check to be sure all the information is there and move on. They've got a lot of kids to get paperwork processed on and I don't think they have time to argue with you.

And, if they do, just say "Oh, well if you don't accept this letter then would you mind giving me the number for the Health Dept?" Then add, "OH! And with whom should my attorney ask to speak with when he calls?" And, ALWAYS a pleasant smile and "thank you so much."

Good Luck!

Cate

Originally Posted by Xerxella 

I know I won't, but it's such a PITA and I'm so not looking forward to the questions and the staff staring at my like I have 2 heads and like I'm one of those crazy non vaxers.  I want to yell at them that I'm also one of those crazy extended breastfeeders, non cio-er, gentle discipliners.  Argh!  I'm so crazy I actually want my children to feel safe in this world and loved by their parents in the daytime and night time and understand the natural or logical consequences for their actions.  It's crazy, I know.  Sigh.  Sorry for the tangent. 

Back on the topic, I do agree ma2two, none of the potential outbreaks scare me.  Those are regular childhood diseases that I wouldn't keep my kids home from school to try to avoid  (besides by the time I hear about it would probably be too late to avoid anyways).  Also, I read through the manual and if there was ever a case of any contagious disease in the school, all parents would be notified.  (As I feel is right.) 

So, I also had to look up forgery.  And, you have to have intent to defraud and when I looked up defraud it you have to deceive or cheat with the purpose of causing financial loss to another or bring about some financial gain to oneself.  So, it's definitely not forgery because there's no financial gain.  But, there's so many other laws and, of course, I don't know them all, so even if it's not forgery it could be illegal somewhere else.  (But, I don't see how.) 

But, I guess it's just an academic question since I will file for an exemption based on my religious beliefs.  I agree with what others said, that the lie would have to be perpetuated for 12 years and what about if my son started saying the truth when it comes up in science class or wherever.  He'd probably be the one to spill the beans. 

[Xerxella]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

 Try looking up the definition of "fraud."  Here are the elements of fraud:

Common law fraud has nine elements:^[3][4]

1. a representation of an existing fact;
2. its materiality;
3. its falsity;
4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

I think lying on a vaccination form would qualify.

Illinois has a seperate law and doesn't use the common law definition, but they are very similar.  It comes down to that the plantiff does not suffer damages or as Illinois put it neither party suffers or gains financially.  So, I don't think it fits the definition of forgery. 

Thanks Casha's mom.  It's a year away and I'm worrying about it!  I just actually hate confrontation, but what are you going to do?  Maybe I'll send my dh with the forms and make him deal with it.  :) 

[Casha'sMommy]

What are we going to do?

We're HOMESCHOOLERS! LMAO

If I had to do send my children to school I'd be losing my mind as well because I've got some kids with different needs and public school, even most private schools, do not meet their needs.

I do wish you the best of luck and, as you may have seen from my location description, we'll be in your neck of the woods by the years end. Maybe we can work on a play date sometime. DH works in Buffalo Grove, not as if we can afford to live there lol. We're hoping to find a house in the Grayslake area or maybe the Fox Valley area.

I'm off to bed now. Glad I could put your mind at ease a little bit.

Cate

[JamieCatheryn]

I haven't filed with the school yet but I've found the form and letter to be pretty simple here in KY, though it's really strange they wanted our doctor or the health dept to sign the exemption form - I mean what do they have to do with personal religious beliefs beyond trying to argue against them? It WAS difficult however to find  the only family practice that took non vaxxed patients anymore so we could do the health screening form and get the exemption signed.

[cyberfish]

Originally Posted by JamieCatheryn 

I haven't filed with the school yet but I've found the form and letter to be pretty simple here in KY, though it's really strange they wanted our doctor or the health dept to sign the exemption form - I mean what do they have to do with personal religious beliefs beyond trying to argue against them? It WAS difficult however to find  the only family practice that took non vaxxed patients anymore so we could do the health screening form and get the exemption signed.

I'd look carefully into the actual law before getting a health practitioner to sign off on your exemption.  Some states have vaccine registries that you can't opt out of and telling you that a doctor needs to sign off on your health form is one way of getting you into this database, whether you are aware you are being included in it or not. 

Lying on a vaccine form could backfire if your state has a vaccine registry also.  I'd claim the exemption.