ISO some fresh eyes...should I try to put her in K early?

[TinyMama]

DD turned 4 in May.  She is currently reading on about a 2nd grade level, and writing at about a 1st grade level.  She can count to 100, skip count, and currently loves word problems like, "If you had 14 apples, and someone took away 6, how many would you have?"  She has a lot of quirky skills too--she can sing the alphabet backwards, tell you what number of the alphabet each letter is (E is 5), etc.  

She has had 1 year of a good play-based preschool.  She's currently signed up to be there next year for their 4 year old program, which does include letters and numbers.  They have assured me that they differentiate.

So...what would tip your decision towards enrolling a child in K a full year early?  Since her b'day is in May, she could be 2 years younger than the other kids.  She is relatively shy, but does come out of her shell after a warm-up period.  She gets along well with other kids, although she is an introvert and often would rather be alone.  Her gross motor skills are a bit delayed, but she hasn't noticed that yet.  

Opinions?  Advice?  Thanks!

[whatsnextmom]

I can only speak for myself and I didn't seek early admission for kindergarten for either of my kids. I had no problem sending my DS to kindergarten as an older 4 on schedule. If he'd have had to wait a year, I wouldn't have taken issue with it either. I didn't seek early admission for DD and I have no problem letting the school accelerate her into 1st grade when it was clear kindergarten wasn't working. I don't have any issue with mature and gifted kids being the youngest in their grade. My reasonings were purely selfish.... I wasn't ready for them to go yet. They each did play-based preschool but only a few hours a week. I just really loved that time with them. I loved taking them to museums and the zoo. I loved going tidepooling and mid-day trips to have lunch with daddy and hit the aquarium on the way home. I knew they were advanced but I also felt at that age, they would get more from being with me during the day than school. They are in 6th and 10th grade now and I still don't regret it.

I can't say what is right in your decision. I will saw that acceleration once they KNOW your child can be much easier than early admission when they don't know her at all.

[Linda on the move]

Is it even an option where you live? Where I live, a child who turned 4 in May could NOT be admitted to Kindergarten, nor could they be admitted to first the next year. (ages are written into the law for K and 1st for public school here, but not higher grades).

My kids go to a private school that can admit slightly younger children to K than the public school, but she wouldn't be able to attend K there, either. I think our cutoff is Dec.

[pigpokey]

If your plan is full-day school, I'd let her focus on gross motor this year and be more balanced on school entry.  So, swimming, biking, gymnastics, skipping (taught in most 4yo dance classes in my experience).

In most states K attendance is not mandatory for 1st grade, BTW, though some states have those birthday mandates.

If K is mandatory, you might hedge your bets and see if you can legally register her as homeschooling for K, in case you want to put her straight into 1st. 

Of course state law varies widely with regard to these things.  In my state you cannot early enter K or 1st.  You don't register your child as home schooling any particular grade (just as home schooling period).  And preK, K and 1 are all entry points without home schooling, just based on birthday.

[ollyoxenfree]

You don't mention whether she is content with the pre-school and the other children enrolled there. I would factor in how much she will resist leaving - or how much she will welcome a new situation.  Does she have special friends at pre-school that she looks forward to seeing? How disruptive will a change be for her? Unless she's been unhappy and disengaged and unable to make friends at the pre-school, I'm not sure that there's a strong case to change, but maybe you have concerns you haven't mentioned. 

Are pre-school and kindergarten your only choices? If there is a pre-school/school that offers a multi-age classroom for 3 to 6 yrs, that's often a terrific choice for early childhood. They can work appropriately on developing gross and fine motor skills and academic skills across a fairly broad range. Teachers can be very good at differentiating for asynchronous development in a regular pre-school or kindergarten class with children who are the same age. However, it's a lot easier in a multi-age classroom. 

If you don't have other choices, then I'd probably lean toward leaving her at the pre-school, based on the information you've provided. There may be more about her satisfaction/boredom/engagement levels, social issues, and other factors that you haven't mentioned though that might alter my thoughts. 

[moominmamma]

Personally I think that structured learning starts too young these days and my tendency would be to do as someone else has suggested, to hold her out of KG and perhaps declare her as homeschooled so that you might (depending on the rules in your area and how appropriate it seems at the time) have the option of enrolling her in 1st the following year. That's kind of what I did with my eldest, though when it came time to enroll her in school (whether for KG or 1st) it was painfully obvious at the intake visit that the mismatch between her social timidity and now-even-more-accelerated academic skills was nothing they could cope with, so we just continued homeschooling.

There are a lot of considerations that you didn't mention in your post (though you've probably thought them through)... How common is red-shirting in your area? Is the cutoff August or December 31? Is she big, or at least average size, for her age? Is she socially mature? Has she learned the academics she has with robust parental facilitation and an exceptionally rich environment, or almost magically? Does she still nap? Is a bus ride involved in KG? Is she genetically predisposed to early, average or later puberty? Does she relate well to agemates or mostly to adults? Does she prefer play or structured activities at preschool? Is she unhappy or unengaged at preschool? How many hours a week is preschool vs. kindergarten? Does your jurisdiction even allow early entry based on a parent's say-so? If not, do they allow it with testing? What testing would be involved, and do you think she would test well, given her slow-to-warm tendencies? (Our jurisdiction doesn't allow early entry at all under any circumstances. I'm assuming yours does, since you're considering it, but you'd need to be clear on the procedures and criteria.)

I agree with ollyoxenfree about the multi-age classroom, if available. It might be a good choice, especially if it's just half days or something. I do think there's tremendous value in unstructured play time and family time for young children, especially those who are clearly ahead of the curve intellectually, since they're clearly thriving in that environment. Personally I would never want a 4-year-old of mine in full-time school. (My jurisdiction is moving to full-time kindergarten, with a December 31st cutoff, meaning that a third of those kids will be 4. I think it's an idiotic move, motivated more by a desire to provide guilt-free politicallly-kosher funded daycare to working parents than the interests of the children.)

So, there are my biases and opinions. You asked!

Miranda

[MJB]

I don't think you'd be able to find a K that would take her. We ended up sending my Dec. bday son to a private school because our cut-off is Oct. 1 (although in practice, it's more like June 1). He is 6-18 mos. younger than his classmates and it worked out fine, but I know they wouldn't have considered him if his birthday was any later. 

I think you'll be looking at grade acceleration in the future but I don't think early K is going to work. Especially since it's so close to the beginning of the school year and private school testing/admissions periods are long past. Could you find a Montessori school for her? We have both public and private Montessori schools here that have combined preschool/K classes. 

[meemee]

how does she do in a crowd? yes she is an introvert but can she get overwhelmed in a crowd of 20 people?

can she zip up her coat or button it. 

can she open ziplock bags by herself? or whatever you will pack her snacks /and lunch in?

i looked at starting dd early too, but decided against it because even though academemically she was ahead in many of the other ways she was just getting a hang of things.

she still kinda started early at 4.11months old becaue of CA cut off dates. i wish i had been able to afford to keep her in ps one year longer because she is not v. fond of school. not too many fun activities. too much academics and hw for her. 

[TinyMama]

Thanks for all of the opinions and advice.  Sorry to not have responded before now; we were away.  I'll try to answer some of your excellent questions!
 

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

I can't say what is right in your decision. I will saw that acceleration once they KNOW your child can be much easier than early admission when they don't know her at all.

This is partly what I'm afraid of.  Although the school seems relatively open to early admissions, I SERIOUSLY doubt they will consider accelerating her later on.  As far as I know, this district has never done that.  
 

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Is it even an option where you live? Where I live, a child who turned 4 in May could NOT be admitted to Kindergarten, nor could they be admitted to first the next year. (ages are written into the law for K and 1st for public school here, but not higher grades).

If I put DD in private K early, and attempted to put her in public 1st, they would not necessarily take her.  However, I could consider putting her in her age-appropriate preschool next year, then in the private K the next year (full day, unlike the public option, and rigorous) and then try to get her into public 2nd (skipping 1st).  I think they may be more willing to do that b/c the private K is really similar to the public 1st.
 

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

If your plan is full-day school, I'd let her focus on gross motor this year and be more balanced on school entry.  So, swimming, biking, gymnastics, skipping (taught in most 4yo dance classes in my experience).

This is, in essence, the other argument.  DD can't do any of these things, and I do see the need for her to improve in them.  I'm just not sure how much I should be concerned about her entering school with or without these gross motor skills--I'm putting her in school for education, not necessarily to be a well rounded person, y'know?  

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

You don't mention whether she is content with the pre-school and the other children enrolled there. I would factor in how much she will resist leaving - or how much she will welcome a new situation.  Does she have special friends at pre-school that she looks forward to seeing? How disruptive will a change be for her? Unless she's been unhappy and disengaged and unable to make friends at the pre-school, I'm not sure that there's a strong case to change, but maybe you have concerns you haven't mentioned. 

Are pre-school and kindergarten your only choices? If there is a pre-school/school that offers a multi-age classroom for 3 to 6 yrs, that's often a terrific choice for early childhood. They can work appropriately on developing gross and fine motor skills and academic skills across a fairly broad range. Teachers can be very good at differentiating for asynchronous development in a regular pre-school or kindergarten class with children who are the same age. However, it's a lot easier in a multi-age classroom. 

She is relatively happy at preschool.  Transitions are difficult for her, and she took a loooong time to warm up to school at all.  I really wish I had a multi-age classroom option for her.  That would be wonderful.  Unfortunately, the only multi-age choice I have is a Montessori that we would have to take out a second mortgage to afford.  I'm also not particularly impressed with the school; when I observed last year, the kindergarteners were doing worksheets.  I can't imagine that fits in with the Montessori philosophy.

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

Personally I think that structured learning starts too young these days and my tendency would be to do as someone else has suggested, to hold her out of KG and perhaps declare her as homeschooled so that you might (depending on the rules in your area and how appropriate it seems at the time) have the option of enrolling her in 1st the following year. That's kind of what I did with my eldest, though when it came time to enroll her in school (whether for KG or 1st) it was painfully obvious at the intake visit that the mismatch between her social timidity and now-even-more-accelerated academic skills was nothing they could cope with, so we just continued homeschooling.

There are a lot of considerations that you didn't mention in your post (though you've probably thought them through)... How common is red-shirting in your area? Is the cutoff August or December 31? Is she big, or at least average size, for her age? Is she socially mature? Has she learned the academics she has with robust parental facilitation and an exceptionally rich environment, or almost magically? Does she still nap? Is a bus ride involved in KG? Is she genetically predisposed to early, average or later puberty? Does she relate well to agemates or mostly to adults? Does she prefer play or structured activities at preschool? Is she unhappy or unengaged at preschool? How many hours a week is preschool vs. kindergarten? Does your jurisdiction even allow early entry based on a parent's say-so? If not, do they allow it with testing? What testing would be involved, and do you think she would test well, given her slow-to-warm tendencies? (Our jurisdiction doesn't allow early entry at all under any circumstances. I'm assuming yours does, since you're considering it, but you'd need to be clear on the procedures and criteria.)

I do not have the option of HS'ing.  DD is home during the day with my parents, and although they are great and already provide what I think is probably an unschooling atmosphere (right now my Dad is building a tin-can elevator with her, inspired by The Littles), they are getting older and need time during the day to rest.  I can really relate to the difference between social skills and accelerated academic skills, although right now DD's social skills seem to be improving.

Red-shirting is relatively common.  DD does gravitate towards older kids, though, and her neighborhood friends are all 6 and 7.  I love how you ask if she has learned the academics with "robust parental facilitation and an exceptionally rich environment, or almost magically?"  because, as a teacher, that's EXACTLY what I would want to know about my bright students.  She does have a rich environment--lots of books, paper, crayons, parents and caregivers who love to read--we have never taught her any academics.  We only did what you'd normally do with your baby--the ABC's, lots of reading aloud, put crayons and paper on the floor for her to mess around with.  Her lack of understanding of the interface of schooling is a concern of mine if she is put in early; although she can add and subtract, for instance, I doubt she knows what a traditional addition problem looks like.  Magical is a good description of her learning.

Public K is half day.  Private K is full day.  There is no way I want her in full day school next year, so if she is put in early, it'll be to the public.  She gets so much out of her time with my parents that I hate the idea of cutting short her days with them, any more than I have to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJB 

I don't think you'd be able to find a K that would take her. We ended up sending my Dec. bday son to a private school because our cut-off is Oct. 1 (although in practice, it's more like June 1). He is 6-18 mos. younger than his classmates and it worked out fine, but I know they wouldn't have considered him if his birthday was any later. 

I think you'll be looking at grade acceleration in the future but I don't think early K is going to work. Especially since it's so close to the beginning of the school year and private school testing/admissions periods are long past. Could you find a Montessori school for her? We have both public and private Montessori schools here that have combined preschool/K classes. 

See my comment above about the Montessori.  I'm disappointed about it...but on the other hand, I worry a bit that it plays to her strengths.  Since she's introverted already, and has a ridiculously long attention span, I feel that Montessori would play to her strengths without necessarily developing her weaknesses.

Originally Posted by meemee 

how does she do in a crowd? yes she is an introvert but can she get overwhelmed in a crowd of 20 people?

can she zip up her coat or button it. 

can she open ziplock bags by herself? or whatever you will pack her snacks /and lunch in?

i looked at starting dd early too, but decided against it because even though academemically she was ahead in many of the other ways she was just getting a hang of things.

she still kinda started early at 4.11months old becaue of CA cut off dates. i wish i had been able to afford to keep her in ps one year longer because she is not v. fond of school. not too many fun activities. too much academics and hw for her. 

She can do any fine motor skills.  Zippers, buttons, baggies, etc. are not problem for her.  A raucous game of ring-around-the-rosie would pretty much expose her as a fraud, though.  :)

Okay--thanks!  I'll be back later to check!  

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by TinyMama 

This is partly what I'm afraid of.  Although the school seems relatively open to early admissions, I SERIOUSLY doubt they will consider accelerating her later on.  As far as I know, this district has never done that.  
 

If they are open to early admission, I wouldn't assume they'd be against later acceleration. Honestly, most schools prefer to move kids after they've had real experience with them. We were surprised when our school suggested 2 grade accelerations for my DD (we only did one) and one for DS (which we rejected.) They hadn't had an acceleration in the district for decades supposedly but that was because this particular principal hadn't heard of it since she'd been in the district. It's usually kept pretty quiet so it's hard for an outsider to say that it's not done in a district.... in a school perhaps but in a district... well, the district office might not even know about it as it can be up to individual principals. Plus, it tends to be a big deal for a year or two and then everyone forgets it happened.

Edited by whatsnextmom - 7/6/11 at 9:13am

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

Plus, it tends to be a big deal for a year or two and then everyone forgets it happened.

Exactly! I can't count the number of times a parent has written that their child was the first one skipped in ages, or that their child was the one exception because it is commonly known that the school district NEVER accelerates. I think it's just kept quiet (as it should be, since it's a child's personal educational journey) and then after a couple of years everyone who knew that child forgets about the skip. It's easier for a district to present the impression that they have a policy of not accelerating and then make regular quiet exceptions than it is to lead parents of bright kids to expect the school to consider a grade-skip.

My dd was accelerated upon school entry (from homeschooling) and I don't think any of her school classmates or their parents realize she was placed a year ahead. People sometimes assume she's older than she is, and she doesn't necessarily correct them.

Miranda

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by TinyMama 

This is, in essence, the other argument.  DD can't do any of these things, and I do see the need for her to improve in them.  I'm just not sure how much I should be concerned about her entering school with or without these gross motor skills--I'm putting her in school for education, not necessarily to be a well rounded person, y'know?  

I don't think a typical school environment will be a good fit for your goal.  I think you should look at K12, home schooling, Montessori, immersion in a language she doesn't know, or an all-gifted environment. 

[TinyMama]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

Exactly! I can't count the number of times a parent has written that their child was the first one skipped in ages, or that their child was the one exception because it is commonly known that the school district NEVER accelerates. I think it's just kept quiet (as it should be, since it's a child's personal educational journey) and then after a couple of years everyone who knew that child forgets about the skip. It's easier for a district to present the impression that they have a policy of not accelerating and then make regular quiet exceptions than it is to lead parents of bright kids to expect the school to consider a grade-skip.

My dd was accelerated upon school entry (from homeschooling) and I don't think any of her school classmates or their parents realize she was placed a year ahead. People sometimes assume she's older than she is, and she doesn't necessarily correct them.

Miranda

Huh...thanks for this perspective.  Starting K at the expected time, then reassessing the situation at the end of the year seems like a more viable option now.

Originally Posted by pigpokey 

I don't think a typical school environment will be a good fit for your goal.  I think you should look at K12, home schooling, Montessori, immersion in a language she doesn't know, or an all-gifted environment. 

I agree that a typical school environment isn't great for DD.  However, at this point I do not have many options, and I'm trying to find the least bad choice.  If school becomes a total disaster for her, or if she is very unhappy, I will of course change anything and everything to make it better for her.  

I have an appointment with the principal of the elementary school she will attend, and this thread has given me a ton of things to consider asking him.  Thank you so much, everyone, for your input.

[mom2reenie]

Personally, I'd keep her in preschool and really work on the motor skills.  It may not be important to you, but it's an important part of public school.  (especially during recess).

DD sounds a lot like your DD--well advanced of her peers when she was 4, but socially and gross motor skills pretty much age appropirate (or delayed in some areas).  We chose to enroll her in preschool with the goal that she would work on gross motor skills and social skills. 

[TinyMama]

Originally Posted by mom2reenie 

Personally, I'd keep her in preschool and really work on the motor skills.  It may not be important to you, but it's an important part of public school.  (especially during recess).

DD sounds a lot like your DD--well advanced of her peers when she was 4, but socially and gross motor skills pretty much age appropirate (or delayed in some areas).  We chose to enroll her in preschool with the goal that she would work on gross motor skills and social skills. 

I didn't want to give the impression that the gross motor skills aren't important to me.  I am a public school teacher myself, and I understand how important it is to be able to keep up with the other kids.  I'm just trying to balance her academic needs with her social and physical needs, and since kindergarten (in my area, at least) tends to be academic, I'm not sure that I would want to not accelerate her because of gross motor.  We are working on gross motor outside of school, to the best of our abilities--we're a family of klutzes, which is most likely part of the reason that she is too.  :)

[ChristaN]

Your dd sounds a lot like my oldest dd12.  Mine has a late August bd with a 9/15 cut off for K and redshirting is common.  She didn't start early but she did skip a year later so she is 1-2.5 yrs younger than her grade peers now.  She'll be starting high school in the fall.  Mine, too, was on the slower end with gross motor skills, had the most amazing small motor skills, an insane attention span, and was quite advanced in all areas with reading, writing, and science being her strongest areas. 

We found 1st grade to be the hardest year and actually homeschooled part of the year b/c the rigidity and repetition was more than she could deal with at age six.  I don't know what I'd do in your situation but if the school system really would allow that early of an entry and wouldn't allow acceleration later, I might consider starting her early.  We did find, like others mentioned, that the willingness to accelerate was greater than we realized later.  We are approached by the school in fact with the suggestion that dd start middle school (6th grade) a year early (just before her 10th bd).  It has worked very well for her.

[meemee]

tinymama let me ask you some questions about your dd's personality.

yes she can do all that - but is that what she wants to do?

is she academically focused herself? or does she really enjoy fun activities? like is art, dance, music - physical expression more important to her. 

the reason why i bring this up is what i learnt from dd. 

what i hadnt factored in was what mattered to dd (not saying that is what you are doing). if i had known i would have kept dd in ps one more year and in fact delayed K by one year. however dd marches to her own tune.

dd struggled thru k. why? because of her ps/dc. it was an awesome place. they did a tonne of projects and learnt through that. learning for dd was fun. once she hit school the fun went out of her life. she checked out of K. within 3 days of K she wanted to go back to her ps/K. she told her teacher at K that school took the fun out of learning and that if it wasnt for recess and choice time - those half days would be the most miserable days of her life (they were miserable and i had to do other things to make her tolerate school). 

THAT is why personality is important. i think if school had introduced all the 4th grade stuff in 2nd - content wise dd would have been much happier. i am looking forward to 4th grade just so dd can have some actual content to study. 

to combat school i have had to focus on afterschool time and do a combination of homeschool and fun activities. 

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by meemee 

tinymama let me ask you some questions about your dd's personality.

yes she can do all that - but is that what she wants to do?

is she academically focused herself? or does she really enjoy fun activities? like is art, dance, music - physical expression more important to her. 

That is an important thought although I do take issue with the characterization of academics as possibly not fun .  My oldest, the one who skipped, is the most directed person I've ever met and very academically driven.  She's known what she wants to do with her life since she was three.  It has taken slight diversions from underwater photography of sirineans to marine biologist with a specialty to in sirineans to marine mammologist who will consider cetaceans b/c she likes the pacific northwest and sirineans don't live there...   
 

Personality and drive do play an important part in doing well with acceleration.  Another thing that I don't know if I would have known when dd was much younger was the social aspect.  Dd was always happier conversing with adults and older people but there are other kids for whom that is also true who don't do as well socially in middle school and on.  Dd appears "normal," for want of a better term amongst older teens.  She wears typical clothes and fits with the other kids.  Her friend group is the "smart' kids but she isn't bullied by the popular kids and they generally like her.  She has friends for whom that is not true due to either or both their communication style and attire. 

I guess that I'd also strongly consider whether older kids view her as a peer and relate to her much the same as they do age peers.  With my oldest, it does seem like most of her friends, who are about 18 months older, don't view her as younger or strange.

[TinyMama]

Originally Posted by ChristaN 

Your dd sounds a lot like my oldest dd12.  Mine has a late August bd with a 9/15 cut off for K and redshirting is common.  She didn't start early but she did skip a year later so she is 1-2.5 yrs younger than her grade peers now.  She'll be starting high school in the fall.  Mine, too, was on the slower end with gross motor skills, had the most amazing small motor skills, an insane attention span, and was quite advanced in all areas with reading, writing, and science being her strongest areas. 

We found 1st grade to be the hardest year and actually homeschooled part of the year b/c the rigidity and repetition was more than she could deal with at age six.  I don't know what I'd do in your situation but if the school system really would allow that early of an entry and wouldn't allow acceleration later, I might consider starting her early.  We did find, like others mentioned, that the willingness to accelerate was greater than we realized later.  We are approached by the school in fact with the suggestion that dd start middle school (6th grade) a year early (just before her 10th bd).  It has worked very well for her.

Thanks for this story.  I agree--they sound alike, except that my DD has very little interest in science.  I suspect that 1st grade will be difficult for my DD, regardless of when she enters it, because she already knows the content.  In fact, my most recent ideas is to put her in K on the typical schedule and then try to skip 1st (if it still seems appropriate).  I do not have the flexibility to HS.  I wish I did.
 

Originally Posted by meemee 

tinymama let me ask you some questions about your dd's personality.

yes she can do all that - but is that what she wants to do?

is she academically focused herself? or does she really enjoy fun activities? like is art, dance, music - physical expression more important to her. 

DD is intensely focused.  Today is a perfect example.  We went to a nature center with some friends this morning and saw a very active program about bees.  DD enjoyed it, smiling and laughing all the way through, but never raised her hand.  She was upset when we left and was sad to leave her friends at the end.  We got home and she spent the next 2 hours lying on the couch, all alone, reading her new Ivy and Bean.  Reading, writing, and doing math problems are the most important things in the world to her.  She also likes to draw and do crafts (my Dad is a retired art teacher, so he's in charge of that) and she takes violin lessons (she begged until I gave in).
 

Originally Posted by ChristaN 

I guess that I'd also strongly consider whether older kids view her as a peer and relate to her much the same as they do age peers.  With my oldest, it does seem like most of her friends, who are about 18 months older, don't view her as younger or strange.

Her closest friend right now is her 8 year old cousin.  While her cousin does roll her eyes at DD's "babyish" games, they also have had very genuine conversations about a lot of things.  We are having a little problem with our neighbors right now, though.  Their 7 year old and DD really like playing together, but they just got a trampoline.  Now their DD spends all her time on it, and we are not allowing ours on it yet.  I guess this is a preview of more problems to come if she is significantly younger than her friends...