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CIO in the car and I HATE IT!!! - Page 4

post #61 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post


Really? Camp is a "need"? WOW, right back at 'ya. And yes, a child who is in serious turmoil (pain/anger/sadness/trauma of any kind) should absolutely be given first priority, at that moment. It's not as though the younger one will NEVER be able to ride in a car. eyesroll.gif It's a temporary situation, which is why I said I'm sure the older one will manage just fine being at home for a few months. Daily social outings are NOT A NEED. There are plenty of things that could be done at home or withing walking/bus distance (whichever is available, depending on your location) to keep an older child happy and fulfilled without causing trauma to the younger child.

eta: I'm not saying that the OP should NEVER drive. Obviously, there are times when you just have to. But the suggestion that "it's not fair" to keep the older child at home every day temporarily doesn't make any sense to me.

Umm I have a child for whom getting out every day IS a need. And we live in an area where that need simply *can't* be fulfilled by walking or buses or whatever. I certainly wouldn't argue that the OP can evaluate whether camp is a want or a need for her son, but to make a sweeping generalization that "Daily social outings are NOT A NEED," is not accurate, nor is the assumption that everyone lives in an area where cars are optional.

Ironically, my needs-to-get-out DS is the same one who HATED the car for his first year and still struggles with it. Every day I had to weigh how badly he needed to get out (and myself, as well, I get severely depressed when I don't get out often enough) with his hatred of the car. Parenting involves making some really tough decisions, there is no need to place extra guilt and burden on a struggling mom because she is desperately trying to balance out the needs of everyone in the family!!! It's obvious in her posts that the OP already feels a lot of guilt, she doesn't need anyone else to add to it!

OP, if you are still around, I was wondering if you ever got to try driving with him in the convertible seat? It seems to have helped enough people that it may be worth a try if you haven't yet...
post #62 of 154
Sorry, I still say it's not a need. It's not like I'm saying that you have to make your 4yo sit in a chair, alone, in your living room all day. eyesroll.gif There are plenty of things you can do at home to keep a child entertained- play a game, play in the yard (if you have one), visit the neighbors (if you have them), do a craft project, INVITE A FRIEND OVER, etc.

And I'm not judging at all. The OP plainly states that she HATES hearing her baby cry. And most of the posts on this thread are saying, "It's ok- ignore your mama instinct and ignore the baby's screams. Baby will be fine." Sorry. I disagree. If your mama instinct tells you that it's not ok for baby, it's not ok for baby.

The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair. I really don't understand the argument that one is ok and one is not. If your voice is comforting, then great- the baby will feel better and will stop screaming. If the baby is still screaming, then your voice was not enough to fulfill it's NEEDS at that moment.

Social outings = NOT A NEED

Emotional support for a child who is frightened/sad/angry/in pain = NEED
post #63 of 154
I don't think anyone is saying to ignore her instincts. Many have offered various suggestions to help baby tolerate car rides better. And I do not agree that baby crying in the car -- with big brother in the seat beside him and mom talking or singing from the front seat -- is the same as laying alone in a dark room crying. And I still don't agree that social outings are not a need. Yes, some kids are very happy to stay home all day, but my DS completely loses it when we don't get out, and no, we don't have neighbors he can hang out with or whatever. Ugh this is annoying me, I shouldn't take it personally but for some reason I am.
post #64 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

Sorry, I still say it's not a need. It's not like I'm saying that you have to make your 4yo sit in a chair, alone, in your living room all day. eyesroll.gif There are plenty of things you can do at home to keep a child entertained- play a game, play in the yard (if you have one), visit the neighbors (if you have them), do a craft project, INVITE A FRIEND OVER, etc.

And I'm not judging at all. The OP plainly states that she HATES hearing her baby cry. And most of the posts on this thread are saying, "It's ok- ignore your mama instinct and ignore the baby's screams. Baby will be fine." Sorry. I disagree. If your mama instinct tells you that it's not ok for baby, it's not ok for baby.

The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair. I really don't understand the argument that one is ok and one is not. If your voice is comforting, then great- the baby will feel better and will stop screaming. If the baby is still screaming, then your voice was not enough to fulfill it's NEEDS at that moment.

Social outings = NOT A NEED

Emotional support for a child who is frightened/sad/angry/in pain = NEED


You're certainly entitled to your personal opinion that social outings are not a need, but that's not going to stop other posters including myself from disagreeing with you.  In my opinion, there is a real benefit for my kids to socializing with groups of their peers and camp meets that need in a way that a playdate does not.  And a playdate at my house only increases the amount of work I have to do (if mom stays, then I have to entertain her and if she doesn't then I have to do additional work monitoring the playdate.)  No way can I have a standing playdate every day at my house for my kids with their friends, and if I can't get the baby into the car/stroller/carrier without him crying then of course I'm (supposed to be?) precluded from taking the kids to their friends house for a playdate.  And there are no kids my children's age in this neighborhood with whom mine can play and all of their friends live several blocks away, so sending them out in the yard to play with friends is out for us too (as it is for lots of other families.)  My kids are absolutely miserable if they don't get nearly daily opportunities to see their friends and do stuff outside of this house, and I would really be selling them short if I didn't do my best to facilitate those opportunities for them.

 

I also think that the insistent conflating of CIO with crying in the car is only unfairly heaping additional guilt and worry on the OP and other parents in her situation.  I know MDC technically doesn't host discussions regarding CIO, but the textbook Weissbluth method of CIO involves leaving a crying baby alone in a crib until such time as the baby stops crying.  Furthermore, the parent or caregiver is not supposed to have any contact physically or verbally with the baby while he remains in his crib crying.  A baby crying in a carseat 3 feet away where he can hear my reassuring voice and who may very well have other people like siblings sitting next to them the entire time attempting to comfort them is completely different from CIO.

 

I really believe, as do others participating in this discussion, that the OP needs some reassurance that she is not ruining her baby for life if he cries for a few minutes as well as reassurance as she tries to balance the needs of her older child with those of her new baby.  The bottom line is that when we place too much pressure on ourselves to be perfect parents every second of every day we set ourselves up for failure and dissapointment, because it's an impossible standard to meet.  OP, don't beat yourself up over this, you're are clearly a very loving and concerned parent who is trying to do the best for both of your children.  You should be commended for that and encouraged to continue doing the best you can personally to meet both of your children's needs and wants while still not driving yourself crazy. 
 

 

post #65 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair.



How do you know this?

post #66 of 154
20 minutes straight, 4 times a day is not "a few minutes."

And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.
post #67 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post





How do you know this?


You really think that an infant has the mental capacity to say, "I'm terrified right now, but I know that my mom doesn't MEAN for me to be terrified.... so I guess I'm fine." eyesroll.gif
post #68 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post



You really think that an infant has the mental capacity to say, "I'm terrified right now, but I know that my mom doesn't MEAN for me to be terrified.... so I guess I'm fine." eyesroll.gif

 

Your little eye-rolly smiley didn't answer the question.
 

And while we're at it, how do you know that the 4 year old's desire to go to camp twice a week isn't a legitimate need for him?

post #69 of 154



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

20 minutes straight, 4 times a day is not "a few minutes."

And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.


But those incidents are broken up into 20 minute increments of time in between which someone has the baby in arms and is comforting him.  We are not talking about 80 minutes straight of baby crying alone in the carseat without comfort or company.  Perhaps we should just throw out the term CIO completely then in this discussion, because that term has a specific meaning that does not apply to the situation being described by the OP. 

 

And I would ask what you define what you consider to be an actual "need" because you clearly are not defining it in the way that others here are defining it.  Baby needs to have comfort and contact with a caregiver as much as possible, and the 4 year old needs to have regular social contact with his peers in a fun group setting.  Both of them become upset and can not function at their best without these needs being met, so compromises must be struck and the needs must be balanced so that the parents can try to meet both of those competing and at times opposing needs.  All the while trying to not have a mental break from all of the pressure to do the right thing for both of their children and not feel like the worst parent in the world when either one or both of the kids is crying and miserable.

 

So let's give the OP (and other parents similarly situated like her) a break and stop making her feel any worse than she already does by telling her to not meet the needs of her older kid while doing everything heroically possible to prevent her baby from ever crying.
 

 

post #70 of 154

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post



 

Your little eye-rolly smiley didn't answer the question.
 

And while we're at it, how do you know that the 4 year old's desire to go to camp twice a week isn't a legitimate need for him?


My eldest son was 9 months old when a bout of mastitis kept us home for a week. He visibly wilted without his 2x week playgroup. It was really odd. But this has continued...he is an extrovert, and he gets energy from being around people, particularly people not his family. He also really needs to get out and play hard. I have a 6 month old, and he's not in camp most of the summer, and it has been really challenging - and my 6 mo old is a good traveller, and not breastfeeding as much - meeting his needs. Certainly it's not every day, but if we went all summer? Not going anywhere? I wouldn't want to see him.

 

And yes, we have a few transit options but they're worse in terms of upsetting the baby.

 

While I'm posting again I just want to be clear why I don't think carseat crying - and we had some with my eldest, and occasionally have had some with my youngest when I had to get my son to school, in the snow (just as another example of why this 'no carseat' thing is not always realistic) - is CIO. The whole point of CIO is NOT to reassure. I don't agree with that approach to sleep at all. But there is a vast difference between that and  being where you can't at the moment pick up your baby and reassure him or her physically. You can reassure with your voice, with some music, with having your other child close enough in the backseat to be seen.

 

OP I hope this discussion is not making you frantic. Some other concrete suggestions would be:

 

- see if you can carpool to cut some of the travel down (although this will mean having a friend in the car for some of the crying), or see if a friend would do it, if you really feel it is necessary

- I read that you are nursing the baby right before trips. With my son that was always a disaster (gas). I tried not to nurse within 15 minutes of a trip, although it wasn't always possible

- if you don't have toys and a mirror, try them out

- for yourself...pick some music you love and sing along; it's good for you and your babe can hear it

 

This too shall pass, whatever you do. You're a good mom either way.

 

 

post #71 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

20 minutes straight, 4 times a day is not "a few minutes."

And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.


Maybe it's because my first had colic, but the thought of a baby only crying 80 minutes a day, and a broken 80 minutes a day at that is not a big deal. Seriously, my first son screamed the entire time he wasn't eating/sleeping for the first 4 months. Horrible, horrible colic. No damage from that.

 

And it's not CIO. I am completely anti-CIO. However, that doesn't mean I expect my kids to never cry. To me, in addition to crying, there needs to be a lack of comfort to it to be CIO. Mom singing to the baby, big brother nearby, are comforting. Not as good as getting out of the car, but the baby isn't alone and abandoned-feeling. For all we know, her baby has the same issue my older son has of car sickness. Even now, at 4, he still has moments when he 'freaks out' in the car because he feels like he's going to puke. He hates puking. The only difference from when he was an infant is that now he can verbalize that his tummy is hurting and I can help him do things that reduce motion sickness (deep breathing, holding a bucket just in case, distractions like picking out car colors, etc).

 

I don't like it when either of my kids cry. That does NOT mean there's something wrong with the situation. Like I stated above, moms generally tend to be on the conservative side in terms of reacting to their children. Most moms get distressed/anxious over things that turn out to be minor. Like I stated in my previous post, I got really anxious when my sons have the stomach flu and are puking every time they try to drink something. However, it's usually a bug that passes in 12-24 hrs and I watch them like a hawk. Hearing my older son crying and begging for food when he's still puking every 20 min is heartbreaking to me. But situationally, meeting that need of his is detrimental at the moment. So my feelings of distress=/=something must be done, kwim?

 

Ami

 

post #72 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post

 

 

OP I hope this discussion is not making you frantic. 

 

This too shall pass, whatever you do. You're a good mom either way.

 

 



thumb.gif

 

 

post #73 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmama View Post

I think I did have baby blues but I honestly don't think it's PPD...but its more that I just feel so shaken when I hear him cry for a long period of time.  I know how damaging it can be to a baby's brain crying that long and thats the part I think about.  The (possible) damage caused by crying so hard.  His hands are shaking by the time I get him out, his eyes are welled up and his face is beat red.  How can I not let that affect me?

 

 



Yes it's hard to hear your baby cry, but it's not inherently damaging for a baby to cry for a long period of time.  It's damaging for a baby to be abandoned or neglected over a period of time.  That's entirely different.  Otherwise all those intense or otherwise very difficult babies who scream endlessly no matter what would be scarred for life.  They're not.  They turn into normal (though possibly very intense) children.  I know, my 2nd screamed and screamed and screamed no matter what I did.  When we went somewhere in teh car he generally screamed the entire time (or for at least an hour on road trips).  I finally just learned to mostly tune him out in the car.  He was going to scream no matter what I did (and he'd very likely have been screaming at home too!).  DS2 also screamed in the car for the first few months, but by that time it didn't bother me so much.  Some babies hat the car or their carseat, they're going to scream, they eventually get over it and life goes on.  It sucks, but you are not damaging him, and he will be fine.

post #74 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

And I'm not saying that social outings aren't beneficial. Of course they are! I'm saying they aren't a need. Maybe I've learned a different definition of the word "need" than others posting here.
Well I think there's a reason that the majority of 4-year-olds are in preschool. It IS a legitimate need for many kids to have social outlets at least a couple of times a week. Years ago, people lived in communities and neighborhoods where the kids could all run outside & play together all day long. That doesn't happen anymore in most areas, but that doesn't mean that the need for that socialization & companionship has changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

You really think that an infant has the mental capacity to say, "I'm terrified right now, but I know that my mom doesn't MEAN for me to be terrified.... so I guess I'm fine." eyesroll.gif
No, the infant may be terrified, but the mom is in the same room (car) and soothing as much as possible, just isn't able to pick her child up. By following your logic, any parent who had surgery & couldn't lift their child is doing CIO if their baby ever cries. And any parent who has a child who cries non-stop, hours & hours a day (like mine did for most of his first 14mos & still does frequently) who aren't able to soothe their babies because NOTHING WORKS are doing CIO too. No one is talking about leaving a baby unattended in a car. OP has mentioned she does everything realistically possible to calm him, and YES, baby does know the difference between that & being just left alone to cry indefinitely.
post #75 of 154

Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post





How do you know this?


 

Common Sense. Babies don't know your INTENTION. If your nail accidentally scratches a baby, does it hurt less than if you purposefully scratched them? Of course not.

post #76 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarena View Post

 

Common Sense. Babies don't know your INTENTION. If your nail accidentally scratches a baby, does it hurt less than if you purposefully scratched them? Of course not.


But studies have shown that babies respond to their mother's (and soon, other caregivers') voices, that they respond to facial expression, light, sound, motion - all those things. Also, I kind of do believe that a baby reads a parent's body language during a CIO session as they walk away, and as they gear up to leave the baby. That's not true in the car. In the car a parent is very present - similar to the same room.

 

Just one sample: http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/word+Montreal+team+finds+newborns+respond+uniquely+mother+voice/3989817/story.html

 

It is just plain not the same.

 

post #77 of 154

what i am getting from changingseasons isn't that it IS CIO, but to a baby there isn't a difference. if they are miserable in a car ride i don't think it matters that you are there talking to them, you are not giving them what they need. and you know, that sometimes happens. (someone else mentioned that too). BUT IF the OP feels that the crying is worse then not going to camp then maybe she should hold off on camp this summer, BUT if the older child really benefits from camp then, the little one just needs to cry. 

i do not think that all 4 year olds NEED camp. personally i see a need as something that keeps you alive, like food, water, shelter, comfort. BUT that doesn't mean that it isn't a legitimate want. some people are very very social, so that want is very important and that is a choice needs to be made. maybe the choice for camp is also good for mom, so that is something to think about also.

 

OP is there anyway you don't need to go home each camp day? is there something close that you can do while your 4 year old is at camp? that way you only have to do one round trip? since it is only twice a week?

 

h

post #78 of 154
There's no way we can know for sure what a baby is thinking, but it seems unlikely they're thinking and feeling the same things when locked alone in a room until they stop crying with no human contact of any kind, and when they're in a car with other people talking, singing, and trying to comfort them as best they can until they get to a place where they can be taken out and physically comforted.
post #79 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarena View Post

Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

The baby does NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between you leaving it to scream in a crib, or you leaving it to scream restrained in a chair.
 


 

Common Sense. Babies don't know your INTENTION. If your nail accidentally scratches a baby, does it hurt less than if you purposefully scratched them? Of course not.



Good grief, can everyone please stop with the inflammatory, oh no, you're scarring the baby for life and are dooming him forevermore tone in some of these responses? 

 

Seriously, one of my twins had reflux and cried incessantly for at least 12 to 16 hours a day when he was a newborn.  I did everything I could think of to try and soothe his crying, from walking with him and singing to him and rocking him and cuddling him and so on (oh, and nursed him on demand of course even though he would regularly projectile vomit all over both of us and then scream some more, and yes, I eliminated everything under the sun from my diet as well, it didn't help.)   He still cried and cried and cried because he was miserable.  I can't imagine how much worse it would have made me feel to come here and be told how I was traumatizing my baby for life if I didn't keep killing myself all day long trying to soothe his crying (while leaving his poor twin alone much of this time because he didn't cry all day long.)  I honestly don't see how that wouldn't have pushed me into serious PPD to hear such criticism.  Please, stop and think about how the impact of what you are posting here may potentially push the OP to such an extreme as well.


I hate to say it, but this is how MDC sometimes gets a bad rap for pushing parents to such extremes for not being AP "enough."  Clearly, the OP is struggling and trying so very hard as it is already, why is so hard to acknowledge that and not pile on her about how the baby doesn't understand that she doesn't intend to neglect him and damage him and leave him alone all scared and "restrained" (right, like Mom tied him up for kicks instead of the real reason, to prevent his becoming a human projectile during an auto collision.) 

 

There is absolutely no reason to shut off one's compassion for the OP here, she hasn't done anything at all extreme or dangerous for her baby or his well-being.  I truly think some perspective is in order in this discussion, and for some it appears to be sorely lacking.


Edited by Lolagirl - 7/17/11 at 2:34pm
post #80 of 154
I also had a colicky baby who cried more often than not the first few months of life, no matter what. I held her, rocked her, nursed her, soothed her, etc., but she still cried, pretty much constantly. The only thing that made me sane was changing my viewpoint from "I must stop my baby from crying" to "I must comfort my baby as best I can while she cries and not feel bad about things that are outside of my control." She is healthy and thriving now at 9, and is still intense and moody but is also happy and joyful. She's fine, and the OP's baby will be fine.
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