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giving a 3 week old rice cereal- does this sound right to you? - Page 2

post #21 of 65

When my baby was spiting up, and fussy  and coliky my Russian mother told me to eat a lot of dill. Which I did. It seemed harmless enough.  It worked. Of course, it is statistical sample of 1 subject. So, who knows.

post #22 of 65

I've been hearing the "rice in the bottle" idea for years.  I've seen it at work many, many times.  I can't say that I've seen it cause any problems in kids as they get older.  Our parents put rice in our bottles as infants too.

 

However, it's great in theory, but it really doesn't work.  The idea is, it's supposed to thicken the milk, and keep things from coming back out.  But, if you make a bottle of rice and milk, even if you shake it really well, within a few moments, the rice settles to the bottom, and the milk is still liquid at the top.  So, it still comes back up.

 

One thing I HAVE seen that helps is putting the baby down right away.  Either in a reclining stroller, or one of those fisher price rocker seats.  Even that doesn't work all the time.  It's actually just a delay in the spitting up.... I mean, how long can an infant sit there?  Eventually you have to pick her up, and she's going to yak on you again.

 

I've heard that feeding from only one breast at a time will help.  (or was it half feed on each breast??  I can't remember)

 

There are other really great tricks out there.  All doctors will say or do something wrong at one point.  If you don't like what you hear 10% of the time, maybe you can live with that.  If you don't like what you hear 50% of the time, you should probably find a new doctor.   It's like all advice, some you like, some you don't.  There isn't even one perfect parenting book out there, you take what you want, and ignore the rest.  

post #23 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

There are other really great tricks out there.  All doctors will say or do something wrong at one point.  If you don't like what you hear 10% of the time, maybe you can live with that.  If you don't like what you hear 50% of the time, you should probably find a new doctor.   It's like all advice, some you like, some you don't.  There isn't even one perfect parenting book out there, you take what you want, and ignore the rest.  



But this doctor is recommending rice cereal for an infant who hasn't even reached its due date yet, just for spitting up, without even examining it for reflux or poor weight gain, and who didn't even suggest overactive letdown as a possibility.  That sounds to me like a ped. who is neither breastfeeding-friendly nor breastfeeding-knowledgeable, and that kind of "advice" could rapidly derail a normal breastfeeding relationship.

 

And to me, that IS harmful.

post #24 of 65
Thread Starter 

That's what kind of annoys me about the dr.... she hasn't quite been giving me answers to things that I feel comfortable with. She didn't even ask if I was breastfeeding in the first place, she just told me to buy the rice formula. Then, after the rice suggestion, she said "I hate to tell you not to breastfeed her, but I'd give her the bottle with the rice in it"

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post





But this doctor is recommending rice cereal for an infant who hasn't even reached its due date yet, just for spitting up, without even examining it for reflux or poor weight gain, and who didn't even suggest overactive letdown as a possibility.  That sounds to me like a ped. who is neither breastfeeding-friendly nor breastfeeding-knowledgeable, and that kind of "advice" could rapidly derail a normal breastfeeding relationship.

 

And to me, that IS harmful.



 

post #25 of 65


I have no idea what "wooness" is. I also have never discussed the open gut on this forum before.

 

 

Quote:
Delaying solids decreases the risk of food allergies.
It is well documented that prolonged exclusive breastfeeding results in a lower incidence of food allergies (see Allergy References and Risks of Artificial Feeding). From birth until somewhere between four and six months of age, babies possess what is often referred to as an "open gut." opengut.gifThis means that the spaces between the cells of the small intestines will readily allow intact macromolecules, including whole proteins and pathogens, to pass directly into the bloodstream.This is great for your breastfed baby as it allows beneficial antibodies in breastmilk to pass more directly into baby's bloodstream, but it also means that large proteins from other foods (which may predispose baby to allergies) and disease-causing pathogens can pass right through, too. During baby's first 4-6 months, while the gut is still "open," antibodies (sIgA) from breastmilk coat baby's digestive tract and provide passive immunity, reducing the likelihood of illness and allergic reactions before gut closure occurs. Baby starts producing these antibodies on his own at around 6 months, and gut closure should have occurred by this time also. See How Breast Milk Protects Newborns and The Case for the Virgin Gut for more on this subject.
 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post




eyesroll.gif

We have been over this time and time again. Provide proof of this "open gut" woo-ness.


 

post #26 of 65
I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but when I was looking into it, I read that thickening feeds can be dangerous because if the baby aspirates particles (rice cereal) it's worse than aspirating liquids like breastmilk. Sorry, that is a horribly-worded sentence, but hopefully you get my drift. I believe it may also be more likely for baby to aspirate thickened feeds. Also, although spitting up may decrease with thickening, I have heard that silent reflux is still present. So less mess but not less pain & injury etc. for the baby. Plus the baby may fill up too quickly & ultimately not get enough nutrients.

I wouldn't be comfortable continuing to see a doc who recommended this... ESPECIALLY in a preemie...
post #27 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubblingBrooks View Post

In traditional cultures parents would feed grains to older babies, only after chewing it them first. The Amylase enzyme would be mixed into the grain from the saliva, and allow the baby to properly digest it.


Although I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure about your reasoning. Isn't amylase present in high amounts in breastmilk? So wouldn't mixing rice cereal with expressed milk do something similar to pre-chewing babies' food?

Also, where did you get the 'can't digest grains 'til 2 or 3 years old' data? I have generally heard about 6mos (due to amylase being available in baby's pancrease around that time).
post #28 of 65
First of all, I know that Kellymom is a great resource for breastfeeding, but I do not consider it to be "proof" of scientific evidence that putting anything in your baby's gut before six months is harmful. One article written 3 years ago by Ann Calandro is not "proof" that babies will be harmed or develop allergies when fed other things besides breastmilk in the first 6 months of life. This line of advice makes a lot of mom's feel really bad, insinuating that once a mother has done something once, they have "ruined" their child's virgin gut. What about mom's who have to feed formula. I guess they are just ruining their kids virgin gut. There has been more recent evidence that is in favor of introducing foods earlier to prevent allergies.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/121/1/e44?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=solid+food&andorexactfulltext=phrase&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/125/1/50

(This, posted several months ago in one of the threads below by MDC user MJB. )

And, as you can see in all of these threads, everytime someone refreneces virgin gut, they just give a link to kellymom. While Kellymom is a good breastfeeding resource, I dont believe they are the authority on when to start feeding kids things other than breasmilk.

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1291932/continue-with-just-mama-milk-or-add-some-food
http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1292893/need-link-to-new-food-allergy-study
http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1279614/starting-solids
http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1273996/those-of-you-who-do-blw-how-do-you-give-the-baby-chunks-without-being-scared-of-choking/40 (GASP! Please, dont feed babies under 6 months)
http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1283644/babies-and-foods


Then, of course, there is this gem, one of my very first posts, where a user used some really snotty smilies at me and introduced me to the concept of the "virgin gut." Needless to say, I didnt quit letting my kid taste things. She is now 16 months and will eat about anything you put in front of her (including super sourdough pancakes) and she is extremely healthy and still nursing a ton. Also, no diagnosed allergies and she eats nuts, gluten, grains, and lots of dairy.

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1233035/what-have-you-put-in-your-baby-s-mouth
post #29 of 65
Th nose and mouth are connected. If a kid spits up with her mouth closed, I would expect it to come out her nose.

My daughter was a projectile puker. I found that she was more comfortable if I nursed her upright and kept her upright. I eventually discovered she had problems with some of the foods I was eating.

Good luck figuring out what's best for your baby.
post #30 of 65

I agree with everyone who said RUN don't walk away from this ped.  I'd also like to suggest a chiro for baby.  If it's reflux (and it probably is lol) they can work wonders!

post #31 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

First of all, I know that Kellymom is a great resource for breastfeeding, but I do not consider it to be "proof" of scientific evidence that putting anything in your baby's gut before six months is harmful. One article written 3 years ago by Ann Calandro is not "proof" that babies will be harmed or develop allergies when fed other things besides breastmilk in the first 6 months of life. This line of advice makes a lot of mom's feel really bad, insinuating that once a mother has done something once, they have "ruined" their child's virgin gut. What about mom's who have to feed formula. I guess they are just ruining their kids virgin gut. There has been more recent evidence that is in favor of introducing foods earlier to prevent allergies.


 


Oh jeez.

 

That's like saying that every single person who smokes will develop lung cancer.  Obviously it doesn't work like that.

 

Can it be harmful?  Yes, it can.  And that's regardless of how it makes moms feel.  If a mother feels bad because of the scientific evidence that breastfeeding is ideal nutrition for most human babies, then that's her issue to deal with - worrying about mothers feeling bad doesn't negate the cold, hard truth.

 

It's like if I said that all the evidence that vaginal births are better for babies and moms makes me feel bad because I had to have a c-section, therefore it should never be discussed.  

 

Yup, formula feeding has risks.  Many of them lifelong.  Is this related to the virgin gut?  Maybe, maybe not.  But Kellymom.com is a site for evidence-based breastfeeding advice.

 

The OP is talking about a pediatrician recommending solid food to a premature infant with a negative gestational age.  You just can't argue that there is no risk involved there.  Common sense would tell you there is risk, regardless of how guilty it might make someone feel.

 

post #32 of 65

can we please stop the tiresome accusations about who should and shouldn't or does and doesn't have "common sense?"  That's a vague, tired, and overused cliche, plus the meaning of it is relative to the user.  If you have to trot out the common sense horse in a real argument you have already lost. 

 

at any rate, OP, i have heard of physicians recommending this before.  i have no idea whether it works, but it isn't a shockingly unusual suggestion.  i know the spitting up at that age and for your baby in particular can be scary.  i wouldn't say "run away" from that physician, but it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion, either. 

 

 

post #33 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post




eyesroll.gif

We have been over this time and time again. Provide proof of this "open gut" woo-ness.



Of all people Adaline'sMama.  Have some respect for different views.  You are constantly demanding it from others.

 

post #34 of 65

OP--I have just scanned the responses and need to run.  I wanted to say my preterm DS had terrible reflux for the first year, which it sounds like you are dealing with.  I would try the traditional reflux remedies...burping frequently during feedings, keeping her upright for 20 minutes after a feed, elevating her sleeping surface, pulling dairy and/or other common irritants from your diet etc.  I would not start thickening breastmilk/formula *unless* you think she is aspirating, which it doesn't sound like she is.  If you do have concerns about that, you would need to get her into a specialist asap as that is very serious and the only decent reason I can think of to thicken liquid at this age.  My reflux baby did very poorly with a number of foods including oatmeal.  I would look at your diet very seriously first.  I really regret not cutting dairy out of mine when DS was nursing.  A number of my friends have done that with great results for baby's reflux.  Good luck. 

post #35 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post





Of all people Adaline'sMama.  Have some respect for different views.  You are constantly demanding it from others.

 




You're right, and I probably shouldn't have called it "woo," I just get really defensive about the fact that it seems that people are always representing the concept of virgin gut. I feel this way because I was made to feel like I had ruined my kid by feeding her something else. I hate it when it comes up in threads because I feel like it is probably making a lot of new moms (maybe lurkers, maybe members) feel like they have already ruined their new tiny baby just by giving them formula a few times or letting them eat rice cereal or letting them taste dill pickle juice.

But, you are right, I should have been nicer about it. Im sorry. namaste.gif
post #36 of 65

Both my kids spit up like nobody's business. It's more of a laundry problem than anything else. I have plenty of milk luckily and both my kids spit up about 2-3 ounces easily after each nursing session. DS still mad it to the 99th percentile of weight within 6 weeks of birth (he was in the 7th at birth!) and DD now weighs 16lb at 5 months, which is somewhere between 50-75th percentile, so they must be getting plenty. :) As long as your DD is growing fine, I wouldn't bother. We don't do any cereals in the house anyways.

post #37 of 65

Sounds like most of the bases have been covered, but no mention of this: rice cereal, even brown rice cereal, is a highly processed food.  Most peds like it to be introduced early because it has iron.  It took me 5 years to discover that my daughter's system is extremely sensitive to iron and the amounts in multivitamins and rice cereal caused constipation.

 

Rice cereal is a filler, 100% processed carbs.  It doesn't have the calorie concentration that BM does (formula's calorie content is equivalent to BM).  2 kids later, and I finally realized that rice cereal just didn't belong in their diet, even at 6mo.  Infants have no business consuming this.  (I can't conceive of every possible situation, so that is based only on what I understand right now.)

 

Allergies can arise, BTW, even if no solids have been introduced.  This I know 1st hand.  

post #38 of 65

Oh I wanted to add to the background discussion - the adding rice cereal to BM or formula appears to me to be an American thing. My mom raised us kids in the 70ies-80ies (baby/toddler time, in East Germany), we were all formula fed and she has never heard of adding cereal to the bottle. I know I only know my mom, aunts and friends, but none of them have ever heard it and found it quite weird.. Just my 2 cents....

post #39 of 65

Just replying to the OP....

 

You do what you feel is best by your baby. But it doesn't at all sound right to me to be giving a premature 3 week-old anything but milk or formula. Goes against everyrthing I've ever heard or read, including my experience in the NICU w/ my girl. I don't know how much of this is woo, but I've always been told by doctors that when they're newborn their bellies are designed to absorb milk.

 

ETA: I know that rice cereal is inexplicably a "hot topic" around here. BUT I am not against rice cereal....It's the 3-weeks-old thing that is wrong.

post #40 of 65

Increased intestinal permeability is an accepted concept in my field.  I assume that's what people are referring to when they talk about a "leaky gut"?

 

The first couple of sentences of this paper mention it and this article discusses it in more detail.

 

If you put "infant intestinal permeability" into Google Scholar there are lots more.

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