MIL says DS has issues with respect...need perspective - Page 2

[One_Girl]

I think he sounds like a normal child.  I have found that my dd often tries to push the boundaries with her grandparents because she is used to them spoiling her and doesn't understand on the rare occasions when they have to switch from grandparent role to caregiver role.  Maybe pointing out that he may just not understand the switch from fun grandparent to serious grandparent out would help.  Maybe you could suggest that they tell him they aren't asking they are telling when he says no to them in situations where there isn't an actual choice.  If they do this consistently it may help him identify the times when he does need to cooperate with them.  Her kids were probably well behaved because they lived with her so they knew the warning tone, words, and looks well enough to judge when they could debate and when they could not.  I am sure your son also knows those things about you too so I don't think you should worry because your child behaves differently towards them then their kids did.

[Tjej]

I'll throw this out there - is he hard to handle for you?  What about others?  If he is apt to just walk away and not listen (like the walk with MIL) that is really hard for other people to deal with.  If it's my kid doing that, I go pick them up.  If it is not my kid, it is very hard and unfair to everyone else to bow to their whim just because they are in a mood. 

I think it is normal to challege a parent like that at 4yo, but unless your DS is on super comfortable terms with your ILs then it doesn't seem normal to me to be that contrary with people outside the immediate family.  If your ILs are really abrasive and harsh in how they talk, maybe, but if they are fairly normal and they aren't super duper together lots close, then it seems unusual to me that your son would not recognize the difference in relationship and the social normalcy of allowing for them to have a stronger say than he might like.

Tjej 

[bstandlee]

Originally Posted by Tjej 

I'll throw this out there - is he hard to handle for you?  What about others?  If he is apt to just walk away and not listen (like the walk with MIL) that is really hard for other people to deal with.  If it's my kid doing that, I go pick them up.  If it is not my kid, it is very hard and unfair to everyone else to bow to their whim just because they are in a mood. 

I think it is normal to challege a parent like that at 4yo, but unless your DS is on super comfortable terms with your ILs then it doesn't seem normal to me to be that contrary with people outside the immediate family.  If your ILs are really abrasive and harsh in how they talk, maybe, but if they are fairly normal and they aren't super duper together lots close, then it seems unusual to me that your son would not recognize the difference in relationship and the social normalcy of allowing for them to have a stronger say than he might like.

Tjej 

The majority of the time he is peaceful, cooperative, and respectful. He is very independent and strong willed though, so he definitely has times when he's very challenging.

We had been with my ILs a lot recently and I think that's why he was contrary with them. It's the first (and second) time that's happened. As I said before, he definitely won't be allowed out with them alone until he shows he can handle it. And we're being extra vigilant in being consistent with him.

I really think he's ok...especially after reading the responses here. He's just 4, very independent, and was placed in 2 situations where the expectations of him and for him weren't as clear as they should have been. We've already seen progress just in a few days of really working and being consistent with him.
 

[lovepickles]

Sorry I'm short on time and didn't have a chance to read all replies.

But it sounds like grandparents are "do this because I say so" type and not treating your child with respect. Respect is a two way street.

He expressed that he was tired and wanted to go back. He was just expressing his physical limitations and desire. I think you guys need a new approach. One that involves lengthy explanations and lots of patience. Stop trying to control and persuade him. Just explain and wait for him to understand. There will be a lot of repeating because kids don't get it the first time.

It is often humiliating to be sternly corrected (log leash) and denied a basic right (rest from his walk).

Remember the FEELINGS that are behind tantrums are valid. All feelings are valid, remember?

Instead of saying you can't go on walks anymore with grandpa because you don't listen to him say something like "grandpa was very worried about you getting hurt or lost because you would not stay with him ... you could get hurt and he would not know and that would make him very sad because he loves you"

BUT and this is a big BUT: if grandma and grandpa don't start treating him with respect and carefully explaining their concerns and intentions he will never learn anything and continue to grow frustrated by their treatment of him. If they can't do that then he shouldn't go on walks but it is by NO MEANS your sons fault.

:hug

[LessTraveledBy]

Any chance it is just agenerational thing. You know, that your in-laws raised their children to do whatever they sdaid, right away, or ELSE....  You know... Since this is in the GD forum, I would imagine you might parent quite differently.

Sounds like a 4 yo to me. It is just that some people have different expectations.

[CJNeeley]

A couple of thing jump out at me... yes the ILs seem rather "do as I say" and intolerant of resistence, but then will succumb to the resistence and allow him to set the terms (it's a grandparenty trait for some but, like buying the tantruming child a candy bar, this will lead to a very troubling pattern), only to complain later. So basically this is also sounding like a probable failure on their parts too (or at least MIL's since she's the one providing the accts of both events). Your 4 yo definitely needs to work on learning things from his end but from the sound of things they need to learn to be armed with an active intent to maintain the situtation instead of giving up even if he gets difficult.

For example:

*The FIL acct involves the child snatching the leash back but under the circumstances--of needing to maintain a safe taut grip to control the dog in the face of potential risk  due to the other dogs and of facing an objecting child--this seems to me either irresponsible (like maintaining a loose enough grip for a 4 yo to quickly grab it back might imply he also wasn't ready for the possiblity of your dog suddenly lunging toward the other dogs and could have just as easily lost the leash that way as well) on the FIL's part or else it's more likely he had not yet fully gained control of the leash and the gained-lost-regained played out something more like a tug of war before he gained control. Also you mention the FIL gave him the leash on the walk after the 3 of you discussed that only FIL could hold it... it's possible that your son felt FIL had veto power to call rules off and that all of the things discussed and/or normally expected were up for negotiation as well and was pushing to see where the line was. FIL taking the leash showed him a line that he didn't want/like so he sat down and tantrumed right? But again, as soon as he stood up and regained his tear free more pleasant demeanor--and hopefully the other dogs were well clear--FIL returned the leash (but after what he'd just gone through was it a prudent judgement call that should another safety issue arise before return home your son should be holding the leash for round 2? or was this just an indulgence/reward for ending the tantrum?) ---A series of potential contributing factors that may have amplified the problem, all of which have solutions and alternatives that can be enacted by the adult.

*The MIL walk involves a number of events I find troubling. She tells him he must stay with her, but he voices discontentment and she quickly reverses saying he can have his way and go back with the pair of you if he runs to catch up. But what happens when he chooses neither of her stated versions but chooses to head back home without running to catch up, she does what exactly? I'm truly unclear because it seems missing from her story... does she just return to walking with the older child and ignore him because it's too much trouble? or is there something specifically omitted? (either could be very alarming signs to me) ----She could have done any number of things differently in my opinion... but if you were really close when this all started, 2 very simple low effort ones were: she could have called out to you two so you'd know he needed to catch up or they could have walked back with him far enough for you to hear them calling to be sure that he was under the supervision of another trusted adult before turning her back on him. Really, unrealistic expectation or not she probably could have persuaded him to finish the walk... I had to hold my 2 yo to unreasonably odd expectations while tired and hungry on occassion due to needing to hurry to catch a bus. :(

So you might need to weigh what they are actually like in the face of trouble to determine whether they need tools and suggestions or whether fresh ideas is not enough and they need to not be in charge of him in your absence. I have no idea what they're like, or if/how much they contributed, just that something about it all doesn't mesh right. (Only you really know if your son or the ILs behave in keeping with what is accounted for in the stories... so despite my rambling late night assessment, only you can pinpoint what's wrong and what isn't.) But the main thing that jumps out at me is: Stating an expectation in non-negotiable phrasing, is like putting on your work boots, you have to be prepared enforce a non-negotiable at whatever costs because it's *non-negotiable* (so this is also a good reason to use them sparingly, especially if you're lazy like I try to be)... Yet both stories contain a command followed by negotiations and both result in the child getting better end of things... now some, or possibly all, of this could be MIL's creative embellishing for more vivid impact because she wants him to change (and wishes you to feel guilt or just the same urgency she does), but since these are portrayed as extremely rare exceptions to his behavior you have to consider all possible triggers because it's likely to be helpful in reducing the reappearance of the behaviors. It's never about assigning blame on all one person--especially the more dependent, less mature party--but rather about assessing how all the things that fell short contributed to the end result and how to keep or get the train back on the track in similar situations in the future. It takes a multi-pronged effort to fix things... you only have control over what you do, but part of what falls in that is determining the scope of responsibility for your son when you're not present. I say trust your gut, things are often wrong when they feel wrong (you can trust it even if none of us vailidate what it's telling you).

As far as your son, I feel his behaivor was pretty age specific... but I also feel both of these incidents ultimately involved safety issues (if he was sitting on the ground crying while the other dogs were a possible threat then the safety violations double up in the FIL story) and I wouldn't really want my 4 yo to expect to debate a safety issue in the moment. (In fact we have created an arrangement to use 'safe/safety', sometimes along with a gesture in case noise is a factor  ins incase sound is an issuei i   , as a code word/cue for "immediate silence, cease motion, look at the leader/adult to listen for instructions, and respond quickly" --something like 'danger' or even an agreed upon nonsense word could work too... we tried 'danger', selected by the kids who were really hoping for some kind of whistle or siren/alarm tone, but as we live and often walk in urban areas 'danger' is a word that would garner attention from other random people on the street, plus I like 'safe' because it can get reused/repeated in the discussion after the emergency has passed and so the twins started picking it up as listening vocabulary between 1-1.5 yo). So it might be prudent to just approach it from what you'd like to see in a matter of safety issues with him and what/why it was unsafe rather than discussing it as respect which is still likely a more confusing abstract concept to explain to a 4 yo. Good luck figuring it out.

[Marsupialmom]

Your child sounds very normal.  

With the dog -- your child is 4 and could not perceive danger.  FIL should have told him that other dog makes it unsafe, I will give it back after that dog is gone.  Your 4 year old protest --- oh well that is what 4 year old do.  I would set up new rules about walking the dog and leash.  You must give it back when an adult says so - it is a matter of safety.  Stating the rule before the leash is handed over.  Your child felt cut off, which is understandable however, IMO this is like a kid running out into the street.  

Even with your mil situation, there was a "perceived" danger and your son didn't listen. 

So in someways there is a listening issue that does need to be manage with your child and IL's.  

I don't think 2 wks is a reasonable amount of time from running off to denial/discipline.  However, I do understand your MIL.  She is older than you and cannot chase after a 4 year old.  A better solution would be talking to your child about specific behavior and coming up with an immediate consequence.  Unless you are OK with your child walking off like that.  I would not be but the correction has to be immediate.  Your child did do something unsafe.  

I do not think this really a respect issue but working on managing a child better.  Yes, there are times there can be absolutes.  You don't run or walk out of eye shot of an adult.  If an adult tells you to give the leash back you do.  You should prep your child about expectations.  Your il's were not being unreasonable in their complaints in the situations you described.

Also, if your mil's kids had different personalities than her she might not have the skills to manage them.  Maybe help give her the skills instead of being critical.  Help set the situations up for good behavior.  It might mean reminding your mil that your child is difficult to deal with when he is tired and she will need to make sure walk after nap time and a snack.  However, even if your child is tired the walking/running off should be unacceptable - that is a safety issue. 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by HappyHappyMommy 

This comment by your MIL would concern me greatly. I want my children to know that it's ok to say "No" to any adult if they feel unsafe. So I would never feel comfortable saying to my child that it's not ok to say "no" to certain people and I'm very careful about what I say to my children. With the situation of walking the dog, I would address it by saying beforehand "If you and FIL are walking the dog together, you can probably hold the leash most of the time, but sometimes FIL will need to hold the leash to help keep the dog safe. You can help FIL during those times by handing him the leash calmly and you can help the dog by letting him know what's happening." (I also find giving the child something to do, rather than just something not to do, helps a lot.)

I think that's well and good, but I can't see where there was any safety issues involved in the two examples the OP gave. The boy didn't want to do what he was told to do, so he did what he wanted to do instead. If it were my grandson, I think I'd feel the same way as your in-laws. I think, simply, that your MiL wants your son to respect and obey them when they make reasonable requests. If you're not ok with that and don't intent to compel him to obey his grandparents, then I'd limit contact between your son and your MiL and FiL because it'll just cause conflict and bad feelings toward your son and toward you for what they probably feel is your deficient

parenting in that area.

ETA: Just read some more of the replies before mine. There is nothing non-GD about expecting a pre-schooler to obey his parents or grandparents when they make reasonable requests. A lot of people go straight to the extreme and bring up issues of corrupted authority figures and safety or moral issues when we talk about children and obedience....but I don't see any of those issues here in this case. If anything, the only safety issue was the grandparents wanting to keep their grandson safe.

[bstandlee]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

I think that's well and good, but I can't see where there was any safety issues involved in the two examples the OP gave. The boy didn't want to do what he was told to do, so he did what he wanted to do instead. If it were my grandson, I think I'd feel the same way as your in-laws. I think, simply, that your MiL wants your son to respect and obey them when they make reasonable requests. If you're not ok with that and don't intent to compel him to obey his grandparents, then I'd limit contact between your son and your MiL and FiL because it'll just cause conflict and bad feelings toward your son and toward you for what they probably feel is your deficient

parenting in that area.

ETA: Just read some more of the replies before mine. There is nothing non-GD about expecting a pre-schooler to obey his parents or grandparents when they make reasonable requests. A lot of people go straight to the extreme and bring up issues of corrupted authority figures and safety or moral issues when we talk about children and obedience....but I don't see any of those issues here in this case. If anything, the only safety issue was the grandparents wanting to keep their grandson safe.

I do expect DS to obey us and his grandparents (and any other person whose authority he is under) for reasonable (i.e. safe and morally right) requests. I never meant to imply I was ok with DS not obeying. My expectation is that DS should have listened to both MIL and FIL in each incident and he was given a consequence as a result of not listening. I also see how MIL and FIL don't have the same tools DH and I use with parenting DS. They don't feel safe taking him out alone, and I agree, until we all feel DS is more reliable in respecting/submitting to what MIL and FIL need to do to keep him safe. I realize DH and I can do a better job of educating them also and sharing more of our parenting tools with them if they are interested in learning them.

My concern was whether these incidences seemed to be pointing to something bigger than a normal 4-year old behavior. We are working with DS consistently in teaching him to listen and respect us (and in turn MIL and FIL) and, while he's by no means perfect, we are seeing progress. I am fairly confident he is a pretty normal 4 year old.

[APToddlerMama]

OP-- I think you are handling things perfectly, and I think your son sounds like a totally typical four year old.  Your MIL sounds a lot like my mom.  I get all sorts of complaints about my three year old's "disrespect" from her.  Like your son, some things my son refuses "disrespectfully" to do are safety issues...like not holding my mom's hand to cross the street which really ticks her off.  We do have a rule he has to hold an adult's hand in the street. 

I don't think this is an issue of *your son* not being able to handle being with his grandparents as much as it is an issue of *your MIL* not being able to handle appropriately and gently disciplining your son.  My mom would come home after a walk in which DS refused to hold her hand crossing the street and say things like "Well if you don't want me doing x,y,z, what DO you want me to do?"  I gave her a copy of a discipline book I use.  I told her to stop him in his tracks and tell him they will not cross the street unless they are holding hands and if he chooses not to, they'll have to go home instead.  I've offered her some solutions and ideas for what I find to be acceptable.  I have told her I'm sorry he's not more respectful of her but he is a child.  He is still learning respect.  He isn't 16.  Give him some time.  Sounds like your MIL might need to hear something similar...."Here is how we suggest handling these safety issues, I'm sorry he's challenging you, I can assure you that we care about him respecting you and we are always working towards raising a respectful child.  Now pass the bean dip please."  An adult should be able to handle some disrespect from a four year old without getting her undies in a bundle, blaming the parents, and taking it personally.  Not to mention, feel free to remind her that your entire family has experienced great loss, and while it isn't okay for your son to be disrespectful, you do understand and hope she understands that children frequently express their grief (and the stress/grief they perceive from you) by acting out.  It is normal and will pass.  Be gentle with yourself, OP.  It doesn't sound like you're getting enough gentleness from the outside. 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by bstandlee 

I do expect DS to obey us and his grandparents (and any other person whose authority he is under) for reasonable (i.e. safe and morally right) requests. I never meant to imply I was ok with DS not obeying.

Oh, I don't think you implied that mama. :) I was replying to some of the people who replied to your OP; not to your OP directly.

[holothuroidea]

I don't think your DS was being disrespectful. 

Disobedient, sure, but you can't expect obedience from a 4yo without properly beating or coercing them into it. If anyone was disrespectful it was the grandparents. They should respect his limits, he is not yet able to hold the leash on his own or walk by himself safely and he needs help- not lessons about safety that he is unable to comprehend.

[hakeber]

4 yo is an age of independence and clearly your DS feels comfortable enough in his abilty (good job mom!) to disregard the judgement of your ILs and discern for himself his own level of safety. In the situation of the dog, he had a tantrum.  So what?  He wanted to prove he was capable and he wasn't allowed...he got over it and apologized...what more could ASK of 4yo?  In the latter as it happened your MIL was wrong, he knew the way, he knew you were just ahead, he could see you...he had a need for comfort and he met that need on his own without the permission of his grandma who clearly didn't understand when he said  "I am hot and tired, I want to go home." that he meant it.  The question is if they had been MILES from home and you were no where around...would he have done the same?

Your ILs need respect, sure, but they also need to respect him and his needs.  Rather than take the leash off of your DS your FIL could have helped hold it.  Rather than dismiss the needs of your DS your MIL could have phoned your cell and asked you to wait up because DS had changed his mind and wanted to go back.

I think you can expect a 4 yo to listen to rules and follow them IF the rules make sense and take into account their needs, abilities, skills and knowledge...not when they are randomly imposed without consideration for these things.

I think you're doing a good job with him! 

. 

[2xy]

I really, really, really don't like the way people throw around the words "respect" and "disrespect." Most people equate those words with "obedient" or "disobedient" when it comes to children. I don't think that an occasionally disobedient young child is being disrespectful; a 4yo simply lacks the ability to control strong emotions. A 4yo has trouble rationalizing that adults might know what's best for him.

People who say that's "disrespectful" are making the issue about themselves rather than about the child. It's egocentric.

I don't think your son was being disrespectful. I think he was overwhelmed with emotion in the first scenario and handled it poorly....you know....because he's 4. In the second scenario, it sounds like your MIL was making him stay with her for no other reason than that she could. I think that is disrespectful of the child.