FIL's issues with my boys - and me. I'm so angry right now. Long, sorry.

[reezley]

So, we just got back from our once-a-year visit with FIL and MIL, in another state. From the get-go, they have thought my parenting was wrong.  Like when ds1 was a baby, they would see me nursing the baby often, or trying to figure out what he wanted to eat instead of insisting he eat what they have, they didn't understand the cosleeping, they wouldn't notice/care that he'd fuss and cry when they held him too long and he wanted me again (like they thought they would teach him not to need me so much or something), etc. They would hint, sigh and shake heads, nothing totally overt, usually. 

Well, the boys are 4 and 6 now.  They are high-energy, creative, high-energy, always-going, fun kids. Did I say high-energy?  And, ds2 is in a 4yo phase.... he's really the easy one, always wanting to help, *usually* is the first to stop and listen when I say stop or whatever to both boys. He wants to do the right thing and really is sensitive when reprimanded for something he didn't know was wrong.  But - he does impulsive things in certain moods or situations.  And it's behavior I don't like and I'm always trying to find the best ways to deal with it. And, deep down I know he will learn if we keep teaching him, just like I see our 6yo is so much mature than two years ago!  Things like hitting.. or continuing to grab stuff off the kitchen counter when I told him not to take stuff,  or whatever.  And some more relevant background: one thing I think is really not nice is during our visits with my parents, sometimes he would bump into my dad when he was napping on the couch, waking him rudely.  And my dad is pretty good-natured about it but serious - he says something like "hey- I don't like that!! " and I would step in too and keep him away from him to prevent it again.  

So - --  at MIL and FIL's house this week we had to keep taking the boys outside for playing and walks, trying to get their energy out outside (it was very hot but it was ok to go out in short bursts) because their livingroom isn't a playroom like ours basically is. Like, the first or second day, the kids had a game where they were mice or something and they'd climb over the back of the couch to the little bit of space behind it. they did it over and over and finally FIL (and dh) said not to do it. They tried it again and they got more stern about saying No, don't climb there.  I asked which part can't they do, is it going behind the couch, or climbing the back, or what? FIL said it's to save the fabric of the couch, not to climb up and over, but being behind is ok. So I repeated that NEW rule to the kids and explained.  ds2 immediately said "I never ever ever did that!" and I told him it's ok, he didn't know before, but NOW he knows, and he needs to go AROUND the couch, not over.  So they got much better at remembering to go around - especially 6yo ds1.  And they needed reminders, but would stop when asked. But in-laws saw it as disobedient, disrespectful kids.  Or thought I was letting them get away with it if I gently reminded them. So, that kind of thing went on for the trip. 

To my point.  The last morning there, I'm here and there eating lunch and packing our stuff, kids are playing in the living room, FIL is asleep on the couch (he is often there sleeping, the noise doesn't bother him).  Well, I didn't quite see it completely, but apparently ds2 bumped into him deliberately.  FIL yelled "hey!" and then looked right at ds2, pointing at him and growled "YOU are  BAAAD BOY!!!".   I gasped, mouth open.  Never heard anything like it.  I said "no he's not!!"  He said oh yes he is!  I said "He DID a bad THING".  And meanwhile ds2 is in tears behind the couch.  Silent tears.  I told ds1 to go to Daddy in the kitchen, we were eating lunch.  He was shaken up too and decided to go to our room for a while.  DS2 came with me to the kitchen and just sat on my lap and cried for a few minutes.  Then wanted to eat, and it blew over.  Eventually ds1 came too.    We left in the afternoon so that was that.

Was this is horrific as it felt to me??  DH was spanked as a kid, and I feel like I got a glimpse of how he lived.  It just felt so oppressive there.  (Edited to add details here:)  Not just the furniture thing, but everyone expected to hurry to sit for meals, very quietly, them telling the kids not to say no to their mother (in an overly stern way for a grandparent who hardly knows them to sound), frowning upon snacks between meals for the kids, etc.   I'm starting to be afraid that dh will fall into the same patterns of name-calling and spanking, which he seems to sometimes defend in his parents, and I strongly believe in my more gentle way.  I never say "Bad boy".  It's name-calling, demoralizing, just wrong.      

Can anyone give me perspective on this?  Was ds2 deserve such treatment?  How would YOUR parents handle the same thing?    Thanks.

Edited by reezley - 7/12/11 at 8:03am

[bonamarq]

Ughh - I feel for you  - my FIL definitely did not get my style of parenting - thought I was way too 'indulgent' and 'needed to cut the cord' with the whole co-sleeping thing... And ANY misbehavior on her part (also high energy and impulsive - but overall a GREAT kid) was PROOF that I was doing things WRONG...Despite that for years my JOB has been as a parent educator and behavior specialist...but apparently I know nothing?

I think he was out of line to call the child BAD and YOUR response was right on - but honestly, I get so PO'd at older folks that seem unwilling and unable to change a thing and basically 'set the kids up to fail' He's TWO - if you want to sleep undistrubed GO TO YOUR ROOM!

I personally would probably tell my IL's that the situation makes it too hard and you won't be visiting for a few years - you do NOT want to set  your kids up to 'fail' and be subjected to their unreasonable expectations for behavior - your older son is all the PROOF YOU need that your methods work - if they cannot accept and respect that then the visits may need to cease for a while...

Grandparent difficulties are also compouned by the fact that most of them have completely forgotten what kids are like and have a warped sense of memory for what their own kids were like - their tolerance for noise and rambunctious behavior is about nill and combined with the old school of 'kids will mind if you are stern enough' mentality and the total lack of respect (IMO) that most older folks have for young children just sets up everyone for disappointment...

You might be better off meeting at a neutral destination or having them come to your place...

Good luck

[kjoy2]

You sound right on with how you are responding to your boys' needs - for both play & creativity as well as direction & structure & discipline.  How wonderful that you stood up for your children in front of your FIL.  Your boys will remember that - that you are their protector.  

ITA with the pp in that it may be easier to not stay with them in the future.  Whether you want to tell them 'why' is completely up to you.  If you visit in the future, perhaps you could stay at a hotel nearby or even a campsite instead.

I hope you can sit down and have an honest talk with your DH in the near future about how you feel the trip went.  You two need to be able to listen to one another and get on the same page as much as possible so that your fear - DH becoming like FIL - does not become reality. 

[reezley]

Originally Posted by bonamarq 
...

And ANY misbehavior on her part (also high energy and impulsive - but overall a GREAT kid) was PROOF that I was doing things WRONG...Despite that for years my JOB has been as a parent educator and behavior specialist...but apparently I know nothing?...

I think he was out of line to call the child BAD and YOUR response was right on - but honestly, I get so PO'd at older folks that seem unwilling and unable to change a thing and basically 'set the kids up to fail' He's TWO - if you want to sleep undistrubed GO TO YOUR ROOM!

I personally would probably tell my IL's that the situation makes it too hard and you won't be visiting for a few years - you do NOT want to set  your kids up to 'fail' and be subjected to their unreasonable expectations for behavior - your older son is all the PROOF YOU need that your methods work - if they cannot accept and respect that then the visits may need to cease for a while...

You might be better off meeting at a neutral destination or having them come to your place...

Exactly.  I am not a professional educator - But I really believe I've done what he needs from the beginning.  He's told me what he needs.  I know that ds1 has been a high-energy, intense, quirky you could call it?  baby and toddler and kid. He is AMAZING but needs certain kinds of communication to get through to him.  Doesn't take well to traditional tactics, needs more conversation and understanding, always has. And still, he has irrepressible energy (aka bouncing off the walls much of the time).  FIL probably thinks *that* is proof I'm doing something wrong.  He does amazingly well in school, behaviorwise and otherwise, and I'm not worried about him at all - I know he just still has lots of growing to do.
 

Anyway, I will take to heart the suggestion of a neutral place, or waiting longer to visit next time. It seems to have gotten worse over the years.  FIL has been ill for the past year as well, he is grumpier even than usual.  That's unfortunate but it's not doing my kids a service.   FIL and MIL can't travel much for health reasons on their end. 

Oh, just for accuracy's sake -  ds2 isn't 2, he's 4.   But you are still right!

Originally Posted by kjoy2 

 How wonderful that you stood up for your children in front of your FIL.  Your boys will remember that - that you are their protector.  

ITA with the pp in that it may be easier to not stay with them in the future.  Whether you want to tell them 'why' is completely up to you.  If you visit in the future, perhaps you could stay at a hotel nearby or even a campsite instead.

I hope you can sit down and have an honest talk with your DH in the near future

Thank you so much for saying this. I needed to hear that from someone.  :)   I hope I did well by them.  As for talking to DH, it just happens that a few weeks ago we started counseling, for this and other reasons.  Hopefully we can come to some agreement about this stuff.  What made me so mad again after coming home is that we had an email waiting for us from FIL - about how bad the kids' behavior is and how essentially it's my fault.  But he tried to word it politely....  AND he cc'd my parents on it!  They will hopefully see it for what it is, a skewed perception.  I can talk to them about it.  But I haven't talked to DH about any of it yet.  Not sure he even knows what happened yet.
 

Edited by reezley - 7/12/11 at 2:50pm

[NiteNicole]

All the energy of young kids can get to be a drain on people who don't normally live with them.  It's the end of a long week, granddad was tired (and apparently he's been sick for a long time) and someone deliberately woke him up - and he lashed out.  Is it right?  No.  Is it understandable...well, at the very least it seems predictable.  It would be nice if Granddad had just said, "Hey, I was sleeping and you startled me, sorry, but don't wake someone up when they're sleeping" but I am guessing the situation escalated too fast for that. And I do hope you talk to your son about not disrupting people who are napping. 

I only have one child and she's five, but I often have nieces around and it does wear on me after a while if their parents do things like let them climb over the furniture (really, this might be ok with some people in their own homes but MOST people would not be ok with that and certainly would NOT let their kids do that in someone else's home so in that sense, who "set them up to fail" but not putting an immediate stop to it?) or grab things off counters when they've been asked not to or try to play "what do you feel like eating" instead of just feeding them what's served.  In your own home, it might be ok to negotiate and explain and provide tons of information but your kids are old enough to be introduced to the idea of being a good guest.

It is hard to be in someone else's space for that long and the truth is, you just have to be more on top of things.   My parents are WAY more relaxed as grandparents than they EVER were as parents, but I don't let anything slide when we visit them.  I don't give my parents any reason to need to step in.  I KNOW I want to handle things my way so I will shut some things down that might pass at home because I know how my dad can be when he has reached.  his. limit.  He has NEVER raised his voice to my daughter and I am pretty sure he knows where I stand on that but he can have a short fuse and I have no doubt the day is coming where he pops off at her and SERIOUSLY hurts her feelings and she is a grudge holder, their relationship will never recover from it. So I am just on top of the situation the whole time.  We have a lot of "time outs" that involve us going in another room, settling down, and me explaining that this is not a situation we are going to negotiate.  I also work a lot harder to keep her entertained/busy so that none of those lovely little games kids devise out of boredom have a chance to take root and that avoids a lot of problems.

[reezley]

NiteNicole, you make a lot of good points.  I should have been more on top of it all - basically sitting in the livingroom with them every time they were in there. Most of the time I was, and when their games got too boisterous I would say it's time to go outside.  Those were pretty much the only choices.  Perhaps I should have created more projects for them.  It didn't even occur to me to put out a stack of paper and crayons, come to think of it!  That would have helped.  They have those out at home all the time, why not there?

As for the meal, they had the basic guest rule of eating - at least trying - what was served.  And most of the time this trip they found enough from that.  It was more when they were babies/toddlers that I would get them what they were more used to, and healthier (less salt, less sugar than what they normally serve.)  But between meals I gave them snacks.  And I got weird looks.

Yes, he was woken, he's older and less patient, he's been not feeling well. Those all can contribute to lashing out. I would be quicker to excuse it if it were not right in line with his way of dealing with kids.  He's never said it before - but he said threatening-sounding things before that. Hinting that "you leave him with me - -- THEN he'll get dressed right away..." when ds2 was stalling on getting dressed. (My fault again, though - turned out ds2 wanted privacy -and I normally just bring the clothes to wherever they are, and didn't think about the privacy factor.  He told me afterward.)  So, I needed to be on top of a lot more.  But I still feel what he said was way out of line, and he then basically went on to defend his position in an email. I got no apology.  He believed every word he said.  I just disagree completely with his way of discipline.  Next time I will not have the kids around him, basically. I'll keep them busy or in another area. This incident was preventable, I just didn't realize how much I needed to prevent when we visit!  Now I know.   NiteNicole, I do thank you for the position where I need to be more proactive and not just defensive there.

[NiteNicole]

Staying with other people is just so hard, especially when those people are parents and we would like for them to approve of what we're doing.  In my experience, everyone pretty much thinks everyone else could be doing a better job of parenting so I've stopped taking it personally.  I ESPECIALLY don't care what people think when I think THEY are terrible parents - why do I want the approval of people who, IMO, have awful judgment?

It does help to stay on top of them and keep them busy, but please don't let one grumpy grandparent undermine how YOU feel about yourself as a parent!

[pianojazzgirl]

Wow, he sounds EXACTLY like my FIL.  Visiting my ILs can be incredibly draining as I try to micromanage things with my kids so that they won't "bug" their grandpa.  I hate it.  You have my sympathy OP.

[chaoticzenmom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by reezley 

Exactly.  I am not a professional educator - But I really believe I've done what he needs from the beginning.  He's told me what he needs.  I know that ds1 has been a high-energy, intense, quirky you could call it?  baby and toddler and kid. He is AMAZING but needs certain kinds of communication to get through to him.  Doesn't take well to traditional tactics, needs more conversation and understanding, always has. And still, he has irrepressible energy (aka bouncing off the walls much of the time).  FIL probably thinks *that* is proof I'm doing something wrong.  He does amazingly well in school, behaviorwise and otherwise, and I'm not worried about him at all - I know he just still has lots of growing to do.
 

Anyway, I will take to heart the suggestion of a neutral place, or waiting longer to visit next time. It seems to have gotten worse over the years.  FIL has been ill for the past year as well, he is grumpier even than usual.  That's unfortunate but it's not doing my kids a service.   FIL and MIL can't travel much for health reasons on their end. 

Oh, just for accuracy's sake -  ds2 isn't 2, he's 4.   But you are still right!

Thank you so much for saying this. I needed to hear that from someone.  :)   I hope I did well by them.  As for talking to DH, it just happens that a few weeks ago we started counseling, for this and other reasons.  Hopefully we can come to some agreement about this stuff.  What made me so mad again after coming home is that we had an email waiting for us from FIL - about how bad the kids' behavior is and how essentially it's my fault.  But he tried to word it politely....  AND he cc'd my parents on it!  They will hopefully see it for what it is, a skewed perception.  I can talk to them about it.  But I haven't talked to DH about any of it yet.  Not sure he even knows what happened yet.
 

Wow, this right here shows that he has no respect for you and your husband as adults.  You cannot stay in his house anymore or it won't change.  Show your independance by staying in a hotel next time and doing other things around the town while you're there.  Maybe take the inlaws out to dinner and pay.  Expect FIL and MIL to try to give you money when you do this because they're likely to feel weird about you becoming more assertive and indepenant.  Don't take money from them at all for anything ever.

Once you have that independance, your inlaws won't have the urge to treat you like that anymore, or at least they'd be forced to be respectful. 

[reezley]

Yes, the whole situation is compounded by being in their house - because then we're dealing with their house rules, which my kids aren't used to. Not that they can't learn to be a good guest in someone's house.  But it's really 5 days straight of living like the grandparents, keeping that up for a long time, not just being a good guest for an afternoon or whatever.  If we had the money for a hotel that would be great... not sure that's going to happen.  We'll have to have a game plan for next time that's for sure.  A planned outing that takes us out of the house for most of the day would be a good start!

By the way, an update:  Dh and I have talked a bit more about this. He's not up in arms much about what his father said, but that aside, he seems to acknowledge that his parents were too strict and that he aims for a different way.  I'm not as angry about FIL right now, as the incident feels farther away now, but I think this past visit's tensions will affect the kids' relationship with him. We'll see.

[chaoticzenmom]

I wonder why he cc'd your parents though?  That's what makes me think that he must think of you two as still being children yourselves.  He told your parents on you??  Glad it's further away and your husband is being supportive. 

[reezley]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom 

I wonder why he cc'd your parents though?  That's what makes me think that he must think of you two as still being children yourselves.  He told your parents on you??  Glad it's further away and your husband is being supportive. 

I know, the cc'ing my parents was just uncalled for, and strange.  We are far from being children (dh and I are in our 40's) but I think it's basically lack of respect for me and my parenting. I think he was trying get an ally in my parents.  My parents, by the way, said to me (upon reading the email) that they have experienced my kids as very helpful and kind, not rude and disrespectful. They know them extremely well, as we used to see them every day when we lived closer to them. They do acknowledge that they have each gone through different levels and phases of impulsiveness and not listening well enough. And I totally agree with them.  Somehow they manage to see that, though, without going overboard calling them names and fearing for their futures...

[holothuroidea]

Disrespect for children is epidemic, especially amongst our parents generation. Just try to be understanding towards him, think about what his childhood must have been like. You did the right thing standing up for your kids, and like someone else said they will remember that. Maybe explain (esp. to your 6 year old who is more likely to understand), that it is rude to wake people when they are napping but grandpa's response was disrespectful. Use it as an opportunity to teach them how to respond with grace when someone is rude to them. From your description, it sounds like you did an excellent job.

Now that he is openly disrespecting you, defend yourself (in whatever way you feel is best for you). Also, have a talk with your husband about why you feel that it's not right to treat people (including children) the way your FIL has done and that you expect him not to treat you or your children that way.