I think we need new forum guidelines

[Linda on the move]

I think it would be helpful to have new forum guidelines for the Learning at School. I copied these from the unschool forum guidelines. So far, all I've done is change "unschooling" to "learning at school."  I'm curious if parents WHO CURRENTLY HAVE CHILDREN  IN  SCHOOL think it needs other changes, or if simple asking for example what unschoolers have on their board is appropriate.  I also highlighted the sentence I think is most important.

Welcome to the Learning at School subforum! MDC's Learning at school subforum is one of support, respectful requests of information and sharing of ideas and experiences. To uphold this purpose, we will not host discussions of debate or criticism. Disagreements about Learning at School should be set aside out of respect for the diversity and varying interpretations and beliefs that we hold as a community.

We will actively discourage an individual from solely posting for the purpose of disagreement, with no interest in practicing the belief or view in discussion, or who posts only to prove schooling concepts to be wrong, misguided or not based on fact. Controversial subjects related to Schooling can be found elsewhere on the internet, and we invite you to seek out other sites for this purpose.

It is our goal for the Learning at School subforum to maintain a supportive and welcoming atmosphere for everyone. We will not host debate between homeschooling and schooling. Please note this forum is not the place to bash others or different methodologies. Mothering supports all educational methodologies that meet the needs of the child and the family. Although it is understandable that comparison may be necessary at times in order to explain some facets of school, the focus should be on school rather than the problems or benefits of alternative methods.

[Callimom]

Then perhaps the mods will see fit not to host anti homeschooling threads here in the same way they don't allow anti-school threads in the homeschooling forum.

It works both ways.

And no I don't have a kid in school.

[serenbat]

perhaps it should be directed that those that do not have their children attend a public school should not be allowed to comments (those who use private, Montessori, etc)-just a thought

by the way - in my state I MUST use the public school system to HS, so I do have a direct connection

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

perhaps it should be directed that those that do not have their children attend a public school should not be allowed to comments (those who use private, Montessori, etc)-just a thought

by the way - in my state I MUST use the public school system to HS, so I do have a direct connection

I wouldn't seperate private from public. No matter what people want to believe, most really aren't that different. You are still dealing with teachers, with classrooms, with groups of kids, with other parents, with curriculum and standards. Plus, there is a lot of cross-over. In our area, there are several public charters who follow the montessori method along with many alternative styles of education. My youngest was in a tri-lingual public immersion school... it's not like any private or public we've known but it IS school and we still shared many of the same issues with public and private schoolers.

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

Then perhaps the mods will see fit not to host anti homeschooling threads here in the same way they don't allow anti-school threads in the homeschooling forum.

It works both ways.

And no I don't have a kid in school.

I believe the topic was brought up by someone who wants to homeschool and just wanted a different perspectives before settling in on their choice. If you have to go to another board to prove your choices are right for your family then you are letting your fear and insecurities control you. Personally, I have no reason to go to the homeschooling or unschooling boards. I think it's a great option for some families but I'm happy with our own choices. I don't really need to go to someone elses board full of strangers and protect my choices.

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

perhaps it should be directed that those that do not have their children attend a public school should not be allowed to comments (those who use private, Montessori, etc)-just a thought

by the way - in my state I MUST use the public school system to HS, so I do have a direct connection

Why?  The forum is titled "Learning at School" not "Learning at Public School."  My DD has attended a Montessori school for the past three years and will attend a non-Montessori private school next year.  A lot of the discussions and issues that take place in this form are relevant to me, whether or not my DD goes to a private school. 
 

[serenbat]

Why?  The forum is titled "Learning at School" not "Learning at Public School."  My DD has attended a Montessori school for the past three years and will attend a non-Montessori private school next year.  A lot of the discussions and issues that take place in this form are relevant to me, whether or not my DD goes to a private school. 
 

exactly! that's my whole point-------why start a thread about picking WHO can and who can't---what's good for the goose!

[rainbringer]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

Then perhaps the mods will see fit not to host anti homeschooling threads here in the same way they don't allow anti-school threads in the homeschooling forum.

It works both ways.

And no I don't have a kid in school.

I was reading the other thread and wondering this?  Anti school threads aren't allowed in the homeschooling forum, so why is it ok to have anti homeschooling theads in the school forum?

I don't think homeschooling is perfect by any means!  But I'm not sure the school forum is the best place to discuss that.

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by rainbringer 

I was reading the other thread and wondering this?  Anti school threads aren't allowed in the homeschooling forum, so why is it ok to have anti homeschooling theads in the school forum?

I don't think homeschooling is perfect by any means!  But I'm not sure the school forum is the best place to discuss that.

I didn't contribute to the other thread because I'm not a homeschooler (past or present) but I did read it.  I think maybe the problem was in how the thread was originally titled and included the words "anti-homeschooling" or something to that effect.  I didn't read it as an anti-homeschooling thread, but rather as one where people with experience were providing the OP (who was planning to homeschool) with the potential cons. If I were about to become a homeschooler, I would certainly like to speak with people who had been there/done that and then decided that it was not the best option for them.   I think it was great that the OP (again, who was to be homeschooling anyway) wanted to look at the issue from all sides.  The tone of the thread started changing as people got more and more defensive.  But again, I didn't read that as anti-homeschool...I read it as people who were attempting to justify their choices.  That's just my take.  I have no feelings about homeschooling other than I'm glad that it is an option for people. 
 

[Alyantavid]

I don't think there are that many out and out anti-homeschooling threads here.  There was that big one, which I admit I didn't read because I have no experience with homeschooling, but going by the op, it was more information seeking than trying to bash.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do think this should be a place where parents who have kids in school (any school, public, private, whatever) should be able to come and discuss things.  I've seen many posts where a parent has an issue with the school and at least 1 homeschooler pipes up with the helpful "this is exactly why we homeschool."  That's just unnecessary and I'm sure most parents go through all the options before choosing one. 

I have read on the homeschooling board for ideas but never posted simply because I'm not a homeschooler.  I certainly wouldn't go on a thread where a mom is having an issue and say "that's why I use public school".

[SaveTheWild]

As the OP of the "anti-homeschool" thread, I am chiming in.  I think it is counter to open communication to limit responses/threads/topics to only people with a particular perspective or life experience.  I think that the whole point of large online communities is to get broad perspective.  While I don't think individual attack posts should happen, to limit the entire scope of discussion is, in my opinion, extremely short-sighted and limiting.

Why put censorship on open discussion?

[SaveTheWild]

Adding to my above post :  I don't think that there should be "perspective/experience" based limitations on any board, not just this one.  I think it would be just as silly to say that people who send their kids to school or went to school themselves should be prevented from sharing their perspectives on the homeschooling board.  We all have interesting perspectives to share.

Also, it seems that the "anti-homeschooling" thread, even the way it is, has generated a lot of thought and discussion.  That to me is a good thing.  

[zinemama]

This is the internet and I'm a grown woman. A grown woman who sends her kids to public school. If I post about an issue with school and some homeschooler pops in with "That's why we homeschool. HTH!" -- well, I am more than capable of ignoring it. Free discussion, open to all, I say. I don't need someone to make the internet "safe" for me.

[GuildJenn]

I got frustrated in that thread because I felt there was a disrespect for the forum in which it was taking place. It's not that I don't see the value of discussion and debate; I do. But just as people need to bear in mind that they are in the TF forum or whatever they should respect the placement of a thread in the Learning at School forum. The assumption there is that thoughtful, concerned parents are still choosing - not just settling for - bricks and mortar education.

[ollyoxenfree]

I've long wondered at the double standard that exists, protecting one educational choice in a "support only" forum, but allowing another (traditional schooling) to be spoken of in snarky terms in that same forum. Which does happen, whether the entire thread is anti-schooling or not. It makes it difficult to speak up in that "support" forum to present a different perspective. It makes it really hard to stomach when the same attitude spills over and surfaces here. However, I don't think the answer is to make this forum also "support only", as much as I would welcome it somedays.

I favour allowing open discussions with anyone welcome to contribute. I would hope that those contributions would be respectful, but honestly don't expect it.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by SaveTheWild 

As the OP of the "anti-homeschool" thread, I am chiming in.  I think it is counter to open communication to limit responses/threads/topics to only people with a particular perspective or life experience.  I think that the whole point of large online communities is to get broad perspective.  While I don't think individual attack posts should happen, to limit the entire scope of discussion is, in my opinion, extremely short-sighted and limiting.

Why put censorship on open discussion?

I think that these things often turn into debate and bashing threads where each side talks about what loving parents do versus what non-loving parents do instead of true discussion threads and this thread is more for discussion than debate.  Education is a contentious issue and it is hard to get real advice and perspective when you have to wade through 7 pages of mostly bashing before you get to the actual discussion piece.  I believe there is a debate forum somewhere on here for people who want to debate issues, there was a long time ago when I scrolled down to the bottom of the list and if it isn't still there maybe it should be started up again.  The other forums have typically been for support though and I think they should be kept to that purpose, especially since you have to be so careful when starting a thread in the homeschooling forum that may say a slightly negative thing about sending kids outside of the home for education. 

I think those guidelines are good ones to stick to and that each education forum should either have them or ditch them and be a free for all, either way it should be fair and equal.  It may be good to separate out school issues from daycare/preschool issues too because daycare and school are very different.  It is a big shock to go from one to the other.  Maybe we could have a sticky about the pros and cons of each schooling choice at the top of each thread for people truly seeking information rather than debate or debate forums could be routed to the debate forum.
 

[lauren]

I think it would be unwise to say that there would not be debate at all in any education forum here. It doesn't seem practical to make Learning at School a support only forum. We tend to divert or ask for edits on the types of posts that say "that's why we homeschool" in a negative light toward public schooling. Generally in the past we haven't hosted any active discussion of homeschooling vs. out of home schooling. Are members here suggesting that we should return to that stance? It wasn't really a "rule" or a posted guideline; it was just a 'norm' that was lightly enforced through redirection.

[ramama]

I 100% agree with Linda on the move.  What is the purpose of non-PSers coming onto a Learning at School thread to state how sucky public schools are, especially in such a demeaning way?  Most people cannot homeschool for one reason or another, even if they wanted to.  It simply can't work for everyone in our current society.  Me, I have an older husband and NEED to continue my education and re-enter the workforce soon so that my kids can eat when my husband dies.  I certainly don't need people coming on a Learning at School board and make me feel like a crappy parent because homeschooling is SO much better.  I'm sure that single parents, parents of SN children who need the extensive services public school can provide, families who are not in a financial position to homeschool, etc. don't need zealous homeschoolers trolling the Learning at School forum coming on to bash public schooling.

ETA:  I think the title of the thread that started this debate is misleading.  It is more a discussion of the cons of homeschooling and anti-homeschooling arguments were never made, IIRC.  Many parents who make the switch from homeschool to public school may not hang out much in the Learning at Home forums anymore.  OP wanted balanced information, to know what happened that made homeschoolers decide to public school, so that she could avoid the pitfalls and prepare for them.  Getting information from former homeschoolers who now hang out in the Learning at School board is a good idea, and I hope the OP got some valuable information that will help her successfully homeschool.

[SaveTheWild]

Originally Posted by ramama 

I 100% agree with Linda on the move.  What is the purpose of non-PSers coming onto a Learning at School thread to state how sucky public schools are, especially in such a demeaning way?  Most people cannot homeschool for one reason or another, even if they wanted to.  It simply can't work for everyone in our current society.  Me, I have an older husband and NEED to continue my education and re-enter the workforce soon so that my kids can eat when my husband dies.  I certainly don't need people coming on a Learning at School board and make me feel like a crappy parent because homeschooling is SO much better.  I'm sure that single parents, parents of SN children who need the extensive services public school can provide, families who are not in a financial position to homeschool, etc. don't need zealous homeschoolers trolling the Learning at School forum coming on to bash public schooling.

ETA:  I think the title of the thread that started this debate is misleading.  It is more a discussion of the cons of homeschooling and anti-homeschooling arguments were never made, IIRC.  Many parents who make the switch from homeschool to public school may not hang out much in the Learning at Home forums anymore.  OP wanted balanced information, to know what happened that made homeschoolers decide to public school, so that she could avoid the pitfalls and prepare for them.  Getting information from former homeschoolers who now hang out in the Learning at School board is a good idea, and I hope the OP got some valuable information that will help her successfully homeschool.

I did get a lot of useful information, and probably a lot of others did too.  Certainly the personal animosity between a few posters detracted from the thread, but a lot of interesting perspectives were expressed as well.

Whether it was a bad idea for me to ask the question here ... well, 11 pages of response here, versus the 3 that were for the same thread posted in the homeschooling forum suggests that there was a lot of interesting info to be gained from folks in the schooling forum.

ETA: Also, the whole point of my question was that I was finding that everything I read about homeschooling was coming from current homeschoolers or from an obviously pro-homeschool bias.  I was seeking information from outside that "camp" so that I could get some perspective.  Maybe having homeschoolers defend homeschooling on this thread ended up turning it into more of a personal debate that it ideally could have been.  I suppose it would have been less of a debate if folks had, instead, kept it to helping provide neutral studies or research and experience that showed that homeschooling wasn't perfect.

Part of me thinks that if people really don't want to read about homeschooling and don't want to be "told" that their schooling choice is bad, then one easy suggestion is to not read the thread (or any thread with homeschooling in the title).  There are a lot of threads on mothering that I don't read, an nobody is required to read any thread they don't want to.  Some of this reads as if every thread, and indeed every post, must be carefully tailored so that each and every member of the forum would find it relevant and non-offensive.  Seems like an impossible task.  

[SaveTheWild]

Linda on the Move -- I apologize that all of this has angered and hurt you.  

I don't think that I "invited people" over, nor that I am fine with people being "insulted".  I have in fact said many times that I think the tone of many of the posts was unfortunate and unhelpful.  I also, however, don't think it is necessary to make this personal about me, call me "selfish", etc.  I believe it is possible to discuss a topic without turning it into an attack.  I have attacked no one, including you, nor made any of this personal.  Please offer me the same kindness.  

[LynnS6]

I'm of two minds about this.

I am irritated by a couple of kinds of posts: People who equate homeschooling with AP, and thereby imply that if you send your child to school, you aren't truly an AP/natural living family. I'm also irritated by people who insist that all schools are bad, or are places where they simply warehouse children to teach them to be mindless workers in a a capitalistic-industrial society. There's a version of this that claims that public schools in particular are bad and worthless, but private schools might be OK. Now, these messages are usually implied, and I'm not sure the posters see the implications that they're making, but some people are strong enough in their claims that there's no doubt that this is what they believe.

For those kinds of posts, I truly wonder that they're doing in a "Learning at School" forum. I don't mind people saying on this board, "schooling didn't work for us because of XYZ and so we tried homeschooling and it's better." I do mind if people come on and say "the problem you're having is why we homeschool so we can avoid that" implying that (a) if you were a truly loving parent you'd homeschool and (b) that homeschooling has no problems.

But at the same time, I'm not sure Learning at School needs to be a support-only forum. By doing so, we risk quashing discussion of the legitimate problems that can and do occur when children are in school. Homeschooling isn't for everyone, and neither is public/private school. I think it's important to acknowledge that and be able to frankly discuss the pros and cons of school. I'd like to see it done respectfully. And I will remind people that the plural of anecdote is not data! Anecdotes abound homeschooling about, data is scarce. School is both easier to attack and easier to discuss because there is data out there about schools.

Edited by LynnS6 - 7/14/11 at 12:12am