Figuring out fertility- Could I be pregnant?

[joyfulmomof2]

Okay, we are neither TTC (leaning more toward TTC though) or preventing at this point, but I just wondered what you ladies think...thought I'd post here, I figured you TTC ladies are really knowledgeable about this stuff! ;-)

The first day of my cycle was 6/26. DH and I dtd on CD's 7 and 9. Originally I thought O day was CD 7, I had some mild cramping on one side, and some other "signals" that made me think that. (I JUST learned what a luteal phase is yesterday- not sure how I didn't know about that one sooner! I'm 32 and have been menstruating for 20+ years, and have had two children. Lol!) Anyway I had some spotting on CD 11 and I seriously thought it was implantation bleeding as I never get any spotting (that I've noticed) mid-cycle. There was also major cramping right around that time. Well, my cycles are normally about 25 days, so this spotting was exactly 14 days before af is expected (which would be the length of a luteal phase, right?) Do you think this (the spotting) was ovulation? I've taken three tests since that time and all have been negative- only because I thought that HAD to be implantation spotting.

I've kind of been obsessing over "symptoms". I had been pretty hungry right around CD 11 and a couple days following, as well as tired, moody and bloated...but it seems that those symptoms have kind of diminished somewhat. Oh, and certain foods have tasted really weird and I seem to have a heightened sense of smell. 

I never have tested early with either of my pregnancies...I went back and checked the dates...both were about 3 weeks past ovulation if I'm calculating right. I think I'm just going to wait until af is due (or later if she doesn't show within a couple days).

Do you all think that CD 11 was my O day, or is it possible to have it sooner? Is it normal to get what seems like pg symptoms before the halfway point in your cycle??? (And having dtd on CD 9 means conception is possible, right?)

TIA for sharing your wisdom! :-)

[joyfulmomof2]

Oh, and I've been running to the bathroom quite a bit more than normal. Any thoughts?

[RosieL]

My first reaction to your post was that you definitely O'd later, probably on CD11. 7 is early for anyone, and 9 is pretty early too. Plus spotting and cramping both can happen with ovulation. 

I NEVER new that I had ovulation pain until I started TTC this year. I was off BC all year last year, and never noticed a thing. Same thing for a particular GI-tract PMS symptom I have as well as some brown pre-menstrual spotting. Since I started to track my symptoms, three symptoms have occurred like clockwork.

Which is a long way of saying that unless you've been paying really close attention, you might discover new signals that may or may not have been there before, and may or may not have anything to do with pregnancy. Since you're kind of NTNP I assume you don't have the cheap pregnancy tests ready and waiting. lol I'd wait 'til AF comes or next Wednesday/Thursday to pee on a stick.

Good luck mama! 

[RosieL]

Oh yeah, and if you DTD on CD7 and 9 you definitely could be pregnant! ;)

[ISISandOSIRIS]

Several things here.... First, it's entirely possible to have never spotted your entire life and only recently have spotting during ovulation, so I wouldn't rule out that you ovulated around CD11 (although, assuming you ovulated on CD7, it's also possible that it was implantation spotting as some women do implant that quickly).  Cramping isn't always the best way to determine ovulation as some women cramp before they ovulate, some during, some after, and some not at all (and this could possibly change month to month).  For many women, ewcm is a better predictor of impending ovulation.  Second, while 14 days is the average length of a luteal phase, the actual length can vary greatly from woman to woman.  Third, I've pretty much thought I've had every pregnancy symptom imaginable and have never been pregnant so I think that's probably the single worst predictor of actual pregnancy.  It's far too subjective.  Finally, if you ovulated on CD11, it's entirely possible to become pregnant if you dtd on CD9. Good luck!

[joyfulmomof2]

And today and yesterday I'm having tons of cramping, and really moody complete with frequent crying. (I'm not really a big "cryer"- even with PMS). I'll let you all know what happens. I'm still more than a week away from AF being due. Thanks for the responses. :-)

[Jaimee]

So...

CD 1 6/26

CD 7 DTD, cramping

CD 9 DTD

CD 11 spotting

CD 20 and 21 cramping

CD 21 today (7/17)

CD 25 expected AF (7/21)

Okay... as ISISandOSIRIS said, cramping and spotting are inconclusive symptoms.  You could have cramped from DTD even.  O spotting is one of those things that can just randomly happen and isn't common.  So it could have never happened to you before and may never happen again, but if it was O spotting it generally means you were super fertile.   Did you notice any fertile cervical fluid with the spotting?  Or any other days around that time?  Creamy or eggwhite in consistency?  That would be much more indicative of O.  CD 7 would be extremely unlikely.  CD 11 is even on the very early side, though totally possible.

Implantation spotting is not common either and usually happens between 6 and 12 DPO.  So an O day of CD 7 and spotting on CD 11 would only be 4 DPO.  There are some women that say they experienced implantation bleeding earlier than 6 DPO, but I'm not sure it's biologically possible and if it is it would be so rare that I would say it is just extremely unlikely.  I think in most cases of reported implantation prior to 6 DPO that is much more likely that O did not occur when thought.  Even if you're charting temp and CF there is still a window of ovulation around the temp spike of about 3 days.  So combine super early O with uncommon implantation bleeding and super rare early implantation... well, you'd be a huge statistical outlier! 

Also as ISISandOSIRIS mentioned, luteal phases vary greatly woman to woman.  The average in the medical world is 14 days, but most women fall in between 12 and 14 days.  Mine averages 10 days and I posted a poll a while back and the majority vote on that was 13 days.  Since you don't chart you don't know your average length.  LP's can also vary by about 2 days cycle to cycle.  So if we assume you fall in the averages then we would assume your average O day to be around CD 11-13.  This is totally possible, though again bit on the early side, but would line up with that spotting you experienced.  If you did O on CD 11 then you would be 10 DPO today.  Some women get accurate results on HPT's as early as 8 or 9 DPO, but most of us have to wait until around the time of expected AF... again usually 12-14 DPO.  I recommend getting a sensitive test like a First Response Early Response or a generic dollar store or drug store test that only requires an hCG level of 25.  Blue dye tests are more reliable earlier than pink dye tests, which have the  habit of creating confusing evap lines.

But, for argument's sake let's just say you O'd a good 5 days after the second time you DTD... so CD 14.  Five days is about how long normal sperm can live in fertile cervical fluid (yes some have been reported to last longer, but let's go with the averages).  the spotting on CD 11 would be unexplained, but random spotting can happen due to hormonal fluctuations, bumping the cervix, etc.  If you O'd on CD 14 then you would be 7 DPO today.  If this is correct, the cramping you're experiencing now could be implantation cramping.  It also means it's too early to test.   So my recommendation would be to wait another 4-6 days to test again.

If it turns out you're not pregnant this cycle, I highly recommend charting next cycle to help take the mystery out of what is going on!  If you need help getting going, read Taking Charge of Your Fertility and log your data on a free site like www.fertilityfriend.com so you can share your charts with us and we can give you tips, advice, and help deciphering anything that is confusing. 

Good luck and keep us posted! 

[joyfulmomof2]

Hi Jaimee...thanks for breaking that down for me! To answer your question about the cf on or around the day with the spotting, I did have some cm, I guess I would describe it as "creamy".

So...I went against my better judgement yesterday morning and tested...got a bfn, not really surprisingly in hindsight, as I read the leaflet and it said "test as soon as the first day of your missed period". Not sure what I was thinking. Lol! It's kind of weird, I'm not really noticing any kind of symptoms at all now. Well, aside from being tired and hungry. And the hunger is odd, because I'm getting almost weak from not eating...but then nothing really sounds good, so I'm not that motivated to eat. :-/ Not really sure what to make of that. Not to say I'm not eating...just not eating much.

I guess I'll know within a few days or so.

[Jaimee]

What you're describing sounds like my early morning sickness, which showed up for me around 8 DPO with my first pregnancy.  What HPT did you use?  What's the sensitivity level?

The CF you described around the time of the spotting does make me think you probably O'd around that time and are likely around 10ish DPO... so a couple more days should do it!

[ISISandOSIRIS]

Originally Posted by Jaimee 

...but if it was O spotting it generally means you were super fertile.   

Okay, sorry for going a bit OT, but I'm really curious about this bit as I've heard the opposite.  TCOYF mentions that O spotting could be indicative of a really fertile cycle, but I've also heard that O spotting could mean a problem with the egg or some other issue.  I actually wasn't going to mention that I occasionally spot during O (maybe 2 or 3x a year) to my RE because of TCOYF, but DH brought it up to the RE and he (RE) seemed a bit concerned but didn't go into detail why other than a possible hormonal issue (why do some docs have to be so cryptic?).  

So, how do we know that O spotting means we're super fertile?  I'm very confused!  I actually spotted this past cycle but didn't get pregnant (as usual).  Jaimee, you seem very knowledgeable... do you know why O spotting could be a good thing? 

....okay, now back to the thread... joyfulmom... it was still a bit early to test, so there's definitely hope for you.  Good luck and keep us posted!

[Jaimee]

ISISandOSIRIS...  My understanding is that there are two possible causes of O spotting.  One is from the ruptured follicle bleeding a bit when the egg bursts forth.  While this may not indicate higher fertility than usual it is an excellent sign that an egg was in fact released.  The other reason is from fluctuating hormones.  The huge surge in estrogen just prior to ovulation can cause breakthrough bleeding.  In this case the bleeding would indicate very high levels of estrogen than usual, which could lead to heightened fertility- more fertile mucus, multiple mature follicles, etc.  Heightened estrogen levels can also indicate hormonal issues like cysts or unbalanced hormones in general.  I might tentatively guess that your RE would be concerned about your O spotting if it was a regular occurrence b/c ordinarily it is uncommon and something that might only happen a handful of times in a woman's reproductive career.  But I'm certainly no expert!

[joyfulmomof2]

I've used the U-Check test from the 99 cent store. It says 25 mL (or whatever) on the back.

[Jaimee]

Good!  That is the most sensitive a test you can easily get.  There are ones that only require 20 or so, but you usually have to buy those online.

[ISISandOSIRIS]

Thanks Jaimee... what you said makes sense.

...and joyful, I've heard the 99 cent store pregnancy tests are some of the most sensitive you can get.

[joyfulmomof2]

Oh, also today, I had some cramping and very light spotting. I signed up for fertilityfriend.com, and that is actually telling me that my "forecasted possible ovulation day" was on CD 13 which seems really late to me. My "forecasted possible start of period" they have on Saturday, which I was thinking Wed/Thu. I guess that is based on the cycles I entered going all the way back to December. Thoughts?

ETA: In addition to the cramps and light spotting, I honestly "feel" like AF is coming any minute. I've been super moody for the past couple of hours too. If I'm not pregnant, this has been a very strange cycle.

[Jaimee]

Well, it's quite common for women that are pregnant to feel as though AF is coming any minute around the time of expected AF.  This is largely b/c most PMS symptoms are also pregnancy symptoms and vice versa since you're dealing with similar hormones.  So the cramping and spotting you're experiencing could be pregnancy related for sure.  If it's not, spotting prior to AF is a sign of low progesterone and starting to chart your temperature and CF consistently will allow you to determine if you do in fact have a possible LP issue.

FF gives you those days/windows of expected fertility, ovulation, and AF based on averages- averages of all the data you have entered AND what it is programed to expect in general.  I assume you just entered your AF info?   So all it's going by is the average length of your cycle and what FF knows of average length LP's and average ovulation days.  As I mentioned in a previous post, with an average LP of 12-14 days and an average length cycle of 25 days, your average O window would be CD 11-13.  CD 11 is quite early so I'm guessing it's leaning toward the later end of your window.
You're thinking AF will come on 7/21 (Thursday) based on a 25 day cycle.  FF is thinking O on CD 13 and a 14 day LP would put you on Saturday.  It figures delayed O, delayed AF.  But it doesn't know b/c of the lack of temp and CF data.  FF is a great tool for sharing charts with others and visually getting a feel for your charts, but it's really not the best for predicting, which is why it should not be relied upon for trying to avoid pregnancy.  Once you start logging temps and CF data and confirming your O days, it will adjust your windows accordingly. 

[joyfulmomof2]

Well I guess we'll see what happens! I won't be able to test until tomorrow. Though it's entirely possible I won't need to. :-/ There's been more spotting, but it's pinkish-orange-y and only on the tissue (not sure if that means anything). On the other hand, there's been a lot of nausea since yesterday. Actually, I've had that to a very small degree for a couple of weeks now off and on. I don't like the seeming mixed signals my body is giving me.

Interesting about the low progesterone. Actually, my last AF was preceded by close to a day of spotting, or it may have just been a very "light flow." That never really happens for me. Usually, it just starts off heavy. A couple more things that may be "noteworthy" (that I didn't think to mention til now)...I am breastfeeding my 21 mo DD...AF returned at 14 months. But AF this time (unlike my last PPAF) started off really regular. Quite a bit heavier than I remember it, but regular just the same. I was kind of getting concerned about the heaviness, so I started drinking Red Raspberry Leaf tea as I read that it helps with that sort of thing...and it helped after a couple of months. I noticed AF getting somewhat lighter. Not significantly so, but enough so that AF wasn't unbearably heavy and back to what I consider normal. I don't know if any of that sounds like low progesterone or if it sounds like anything else. Also, I think over the past couple of months my cycle has lengthened to maybe 27 days or so. Which seems like a good thing to me.

[Jaimee]

With the added info about your previous spotting, nausea, changing flow, and the fact that you're breastfeeding I wouldn't be surprised at all that your hormones are fluctuating and your cycles are changing.  Many women see their cycles length changing as they begin to O sooner (often at first postpartum you O late or not at all) and their LP lengthens (often your LP is quite short at first) and the spotting clears up (progesterone stabilizes) as they get farther postpartum and their nurslings reduce breastfeeding sessions.  Charting is really a great tool to help watch this process happen. 

Of course I'm not saying that is definitely what is happening with you, but it certainly could be.  With the spotting you're getting now it would appear that AF or a BFP is likely just a couple days away.

[joyfulmomof2]

It's definitely her. Weirdest cycle ever. I'm kinda stumped. Still feel nauseous with no appetite. I have never ever had this as a PMS symptom.