ASD and percieving gender

[Village Mama]

We are awaiting a formal Aspergers diagnosis for my 10 year old son right now.( I identify with him having Aspergers for the record) The initial educational assessment flagged him for ASD and we are just awaiting the final aspect of the diagnosis here in BC. I am still a little insecure about whether or not they will see the behaviors clearly when we do( I was so glad that the psych did pick it up in the initial assessment) because regular people in our day to day just see him as  brilliant and look at me like I am nuts if I ever let on that there may be an ASD component going on. He presents REALLY well when it comes to adults. There is my disclaimer!

Just have been noticing a few things lately... I don't think that these are normal behaviors at all for a 10 year old? He STILL confuses " he and she" . It seems like he is not just mistakenly switching them though. He seems to have an actual difficulty in distinguishing ( plus he seems to think that it is unimportant!) He was watching a movie with the family yesterday. One of the main characters was a male with long hair  and may have been a little bit soft spoken and slight. His actions however were very male, stereotypical interactions with females, saw him shirtless... at the end of the movie my son had STILL thought that he was a female!!!  It gets him into a bit of trouble in public with kids his own age as he will pick out one feature that he  identifies as someone as  being  male or female but declines to look at the whole picture before making an assessment. It  definitely makes other 10 year olds peeved to be on the receiving end of this. This definitely isn't a regular neurotypical stage of development right? He ignores and thinks most all gender stereotypes are stupid regardless of the outcome socially for him. I am still surprised when I observe these moments of complete social blindness.

I still think I am denial sometimes! I am still swayed when people rant about me getting a diagnosis for a kid that is " completely fine". Wondering if I just expect to much from him because of his intelligence and that these are normal kid behaviors.

[Linda on the move]

I don't think it's a normal confusion for a 10 year old.

My DD (who has Aspergers and is now 14) could tell the difference, but couldn't understand why it mattered.

For most kids this age, gender is HUGE.

Have you checked into a social skills class for him? it was very helpful for my DD.

[Village Mama]

We are totally hoping that there will be something like that available... Our area only provides help for kids over 7 AFTER a diagnosis. Since we don't live in a city center, there is hardly anything available even after the diagnosis. ( you get funding but there isn't anywhere to use it!) I am praying for something like social skills classes... my constant hounding and correcting just isnt enough!lol

[EarthRootsStarSoul]

You're going to have to teach him specifically the difference between masculine and feminine traits.  Look through magazines together and discuss the photographs.  Point out everything that is either masculine or feminine.  Discuss facial features, muscle mass, fineness or thickness of hands and fingers, makeup, bone structure, eyebrows (plucked?), makeup, eyelashes, shoes, fashions, everything you can think of. 

[Village Mama]

I think that he is so accepting of people having androgynous features... he told me today that he just assumed that the " woman" in the movie was a lesbian... and that was why she was into women.( and that he was just really confused when she didn't have breasts when the shirt was off... and even more confused when they kept calling him "boy" and ".he" . Strange that he can't seem to put the pieces together) You are so right that I will have to consciously teach him to look for other features and clothing styles. Funny to try to point it when he could really care less. I keep explaining that someones feelings could be hurt if he is careless in paying attention in that way. He always says that he doesn't understand why someones feelings would be hurt or they would be irritated if he makes a mistake in regards to their gender ..." I don't see why it really matters!", is the response I most often get.

[FarmerBeth]

I had to really think about this.  My own DS, who is being evaluated for Asperger's, did have trouble with distinguishing gender as a pre-schooler but not once he reached school.  I think discussing the facial features and body differences directly is the way to go, and as DS really enjoys drawing, it was pretty easy to fit naturally into a conversation.  I'd be careful about discussing non biological gender differences, though.  I've worked as a teacher's aide and respite with kids on the spectrum, and I've bumped into some who have rigid perceptions of gender roles.  I really can't be sure how it started, but I think they may have taken what and adult said too literally (I've also bumped into this with ASD and religion).  If you get into non-biological roles, you need to determine if saying something like "There are more men mathematicians than women mathematicians", would be understood the way you meant it or generalized.  I find DS doesn't particularly care about gender.  Because of this, if he were to pick out a gift for a child he didn't know well (actually this really has happened) he wouldn't know to pick out a "boy" or a "girl" present.  This is a skill everybody needs, on the other hand, I like how he tends to go by what people actually say about themselves.  One of DD's friends has a huge interest in reptiles, has a pet snake, etc.  DS has never commented on it being strange a girl likes snakes, and got her a reptile field guide on her birthday.  She loved it and it suited her more than a lot of the girly presents she got.

[Linda on the move]

I think part of it is a language issue. In confusing he and she, he may not understand a need for separate words. Having grown up with English, when I studied a language where all nouns had gender, it drove me bonkers. I didn't see how the window could be Fem. and the book Mas., or why it mattered.

My DD has told me that she always feels like she has to translate into English. She doesn't THINK in english, she just has thoughts that don't have language. I'm wondering if for your son, in the way he thinks, referring to people by gender makes no more sense than referring to books by gender makes to me. The truth is -- our gender really doesn't matter all that much. That we feel we need to specify another's gender ALL the time every time we refer to them is a little silly. It's a translation he has to make all the time, and he hasn't got it quite smooth yet.

I think part of his gender confusion is related to "rigid thinking," which is part of ASD, combined with androgyny. Androgyny is really common in current culture. It used to be that someone with a pony tail and an earring was female. You can't assume that now. It used to be someone with a husband was a female, but that's not a safe assumption either. Add all that to a little "rigid thinking" could make the world a very confusing place indeed.  In the movie, he got stuck on one view of the character, and could add in that the character liked women, but just wasn't able to make the shift when MORE information came out. He stayed stuck -- it was the  ASD rigid thinking.

(I'm just making this up as a go along -- feel free to disagree)

[Village Mama]

I think you hit it COMPLETELY on the button.

[FarmerBeth]

That rigid thinking being a large part of it makes sense to me, too.  I had this same experience with DS as a preschooler but it was women with short hair that really threw him off.  The language thing makes sense to me, too.  DS3 doesn't have any problems with social skills or pragmatic language so no one has been concerned about it being an ASD thing in his case, but he does have an expressive language disorder, and pronouns are really problematic for him.  There is male and female, verb tenses, keeping track of which he or which she is meant, when is it "him" or "her" instead of "he" or "she",etc, etc.  If you break it down language is very complex stuff, especially for people who don't mostly think in words.

[Linda on the move]

I asked both my kids about this thread today. My 13 year old (who is neurotypical) said she has problems with gender when boys have long hair and she sees them from the back -- even boys she knows. When she sees long hair, her mind registers "girl"  -- even for a boy who was in her home room last year. But she can quickly switch to "girl" when they turn around.

My 14 year old (who is on the spectrum, but high functioning and able to talk about how she sees the world) said that gender is really confusing. She doesn't mix up the words he/she, but she can sure see why some one else might. It doesn't make sense. Some women look, talk, and act more like men, and some men look, talk, and act more like women. And why does it matter? If you are talking about your teacher (or whatever) does it really matter if they have a penis or a vagina? Heavens NO, no one even wants to think about that -- but that is what gender really is. And it doesn't need to mentioned every single time you refer to a person. Except that's its impossible to speak in English without constantly specifying what gender the person is.

[Village Mama]

LOL. that is essentially the exact way he describes it. Then it becomes a stubborn rigid thing ....