ASD and discipline

[RJ11]

I'm new to this board and need help! My son is 4 1/2 and most likely has AS with some ADD. His social skills are way behind his peers. He has one friendship which I created by setting up weekly play dates. When they do play my son has to control everything and then he always ends up jumping and getting right in his friend's face - it's playful to my son but annoying to the other boy. My son does this to his one year old baby sister too and she has started screaming and pushing him away. No matter how many times I remind him not to do this he ends up doing it again to his friend and his sister. I've tried giving him timeouts for this and many other issues - almost all related to not listening or talking back - and then within an hour he is back at it. It's like nothing sinks in! I'm losing it! (I follow the super nanny method of timeouts) My husband is also about to seriously lose it and he is not as educated as I have become with AS so he thinks he is just being a brat to be a brat.

(My son is in OT for motor delays through our insurance. We are now awaiting Board of Ed evaluations to see what other services he may get. Other reasons why I think he is AS are: he has trouble with social language, his eye contact is OK w/me and husband at home but when we are out of the house he looks everywhere but at a face, he's been drawing letters and numbers since before he turned 3, he is always drawing if not engaged in a specific activity, he gets obsessed with unusual things like addresses, drainage pipes, and speakers, sometimes he just stares off into space (I see my husband do this too), he is scared of specific loud noises like bathroom dryers, vacuum cleaners, loud toilet flushes and he has some echolalia  - sometimes he says something and then whispers the exact same phrase to himself, and his preschool teacher told me he won't engage with the other kids verbally unless she tells him to.)

Soooooo, is there any advice out there about how to get this boy to listen? Since he loves to write, today I had him write out some goals like "no face" on his writing pad thinking that maybe it would sink in but that afternoon he was back at it with his sister.

Also, he hated preschool, but now that he is on summer break he seems more miserable than ever. I try to plan fun stuff everyday but he just seems more "off" and more difficult. Maybe because his routine is gone. I wonder if I should sign him back up at his preschool for the remainder of the summer - it would just be half day, 3 times a week. BTW I'm a SAHM full of mommy guilt and certain I am screwing him up! I want him to be close with his sis but I feel like I'm always just telling him to leave her alone. :/

[RiverTam]

The thing about eye contact is that people break eye contact when they're trying to concentrate and think. He may be not using eye contact because he's trying to listen as hard as he can. For some people with ASD or language disorder, watching a face is too hard to process while they're listening.

At the same time, eye contact is very important to people who are neurotypical. We improved my son's eye contact by practice and patience. Lots of reminders to "Look here. Look at my face when we're talking.  People think you're not listening and rude if you never look at their face." It took a long time. We said it a million times a day and drilled like we drilled other "good manners" -- saying "please" and "thank you" and holding a door and putting your laundry in the hamper. With drilling, DS1 now has okay eye contact. It's not normal, but normal enough to pass.

Speech therapy worked with on this as well. Speech therapy helped with listening a great deal. I highly recommend it. You can work on this at home, as well. Linguisystems has a number of products targeted to working on communication skills for listening and talking in kids his age. We used "100% Listening" with my son. He thought the exercises were really fun.

http://www.linguisystems.com/products/product/search?topic=15

Linguisystems also has materials designed to teach social skills that might be helpful.

http://www.linguisystems.com/products/product/search?topic=16

[FarmerBeth]

Any kid with a delay in social skills needs very specific verbal direction if you want to encourage positive behaviors.  For example, with the "in your face" problem your may have to specifically model "You should not be closer than this much (show with his arm the distance) to anyone's face, all the time"  Kids who have AS or other social skills problems don't always get that a rule is for more than one type of situation or more than one person.  They also have trouble intuitively understanding body space and may need specific physical guidelines.  Also, when it comes to listening, if you do not get yourself physically in line with your son, say his name, and gain at least momentary eye contact, you can't expect he has enough awareness to be listening.  Even kids with ADHD often can't listen well without optimal circumstances.  Same with talking back - be specific and say "The adults have now made a final decision on (whatever the topic is) and if you continue to discuss this you will have (whatever consequence)".  Time-outs may work in your son's case (they don't on everybody) but if he has any social difficulties, having very clear expectations can provide lots of preventive discipline.  I also think that if you have any concerns, you should try to do your best (according to finances, etc) to gain a proper evaluation so that you and DH have the best information to work with.  Even if you don't get a specific diagnosis, you can gain insight from the evaluations to use when guiding your child.

[beachcomber]

My son is 4 1/2 and most likely has AS with some ADD. His social skills are way behind his peers. He has one friendship which I created by setting up weekly play dates. When they do play my son has to control everything and then he always ends up jumping and getting right in his friend's face - it's playful to my son but annoying to the other boy. My son does this to his one year old baby sister too and she has started screaming and pushing him away. No matter how many times I remind him not to do this he ends up doing it again to his friend and his sister. I've tried giving him timeouts for this and many other issues - almost all related to not listening or talking back - and then within an hour he is back at it. It's like nothing sinks in! I'm losing it! (I follow the super nanny method of timeouts) My husband is also about to seriously lose it and he is not as educated as I have become with AS so he thinks he is just being a brat to be a brat.

As others have said, your redirection with your little guy needs to be very specific to his unacceptable behavior. Whenever he plays without getting in his friend's or sister's face/space, give him a lot of positive feedback. Kids on the spectrum need far more positive reinforcement of desired behavior than typical kids.

My DD is 5 1/2 and did a lot of the same things at your son's age. She has one friend, that I made for her, gained through weekly play dates. This boy she's friends with happens to be very tolerant of her behavior and has some quirks himself. Oddly, if there's ever a break in the weekly schedule, she loses the ability to play with him for most of the next play date. It takes her ages to "warm up" and get into play.

Time outs have never EVER worked with my DD. I've heard from many parents of kids on the spectrum that these are not effective. Time outs have often been misused and now mean taking the child away from whatever they were doing in a punitive sense. This is often totally lost on a kid on the spectrum. They don't make the connection between what they did and why you're removing them unless you've very clear about what you're doing. Even then, if they're at all agitated or stimulated (often why you'd be removing them) they lose the ability to be cognitively able to process the cause and effect relationship. They're too hyped-up to process much of anything at all.

What's worked best for us is me engaging in play with the kids and modeling appropriate behavior. While I model, I also TALK about what I'm doing and SHOW her what I'm doing. My DD is very visual in her learning style. Talking at length doesn't work for her much of the time. Making drawings, showing pictures, showing when characters on TV or in books are acting out the desired behavior often works much better. Especially if it's a character that interests her. Like Caillou. He often does things with his little sister that aren't okay. Yelling at her, not sharing, etc., I show these examples to my DD and we talk about what Caillou is doing with Rosie and she "gets it" when we talk this way. We do this with Curious George, too. He often gets in over his head because he doesn't think things through or ask for help. We talk about his adventures, how things happen and what he should have done (usually ask for help or find an adult to help, etc.).

I don't know if this would help you but I thought I'd throw the ideas out there. Good luck with your little one. I know it's a very challenging job parenting a Special kid.

[RJ11]

Thank you for the suggestions. It's taken me along time to reach out and it's just nice to know that I am not alone. We are awaiting a formal evaluation through the Board of Ed.

Does anyone know if making up words is a spectrum trait? Lately my son has been doing this and when I question the word (very gently) he gets quite angry. It's very frustrating. Am I supposed to correct him or just let it go. He HATES to be corrected in anyway.

[FarmerBeth]

I've never heard of making up words as being particularly a spectrum trait.  Many preschoolers will try this at some point.

[RJ11]

I need to chill a bit! I'm to the point that I think everything a bit odd is spectrum related. :/ I need to remember he's also a kid. This is so hard!

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by beachcomber 

Time outs have never EVER worked with my DD. I've heard from many parents of kids on the spectrum that these are not effective. Time outs have often been misused and now mean taking the child away from whatever they were doing in a punitive sense. This is often totally lost on a kid on the spectrum. They don't make the connection between what they did and why you're removing them unless you've very clear about what you're doing. Even then, if they're at all agitated or stimulated (often why you'd be removing them) they lose the ability to be cognitively able to process the cause and effect relationship. They're too hyped-up to process much of anything at all.

I don't know if this would help you but I thought I'd throw the ideas out there. Good luck with your little one. I know it's a very challenging job parenting a Special kid.

I agree with this 100%. Frankly I am against timeouts with any child (and I think you will find very few people on MDC who would cite Super Nanny as a role model for parenting and discipline!). Punishments assume the chid CAN make the "right" choice and simply need enough negative reinforcement to do so. Your son can't make the right choice, and in the moment is not likely capable of processing any information you give him. You need to set the mindset that this is a disability. It's like punishing a deaf child in order to get him to hear.

Be his "coach" and practice with him on what's expected, how others respond to things (like having someone getting in their face), etc. Treat it as if you are teaching him brand new skills, because likely he is not aware of what is expected by others and many kids want to know and are grateful to have the information.  

[RJ11]

@Piglet68 - being his coach is great advice!

But know what? Don't knock the Super Nanny! Her whole take on time outs is that they do not work unless the child knows 100% why he is in time out. Plus she cracks down on parents about nutrition, eating at the table together, limiting screen time and getting down on the floor and playing with and enjoying your kids, so I don't see how these ideas would some how be in conflict with the views of those who visit this site or read Mothering Magazine. Parenting ain't all left or right - I think most of us research all kinds of information out there and test things out to see what works for our own unique families.   

[Piglet68]

Edited: Deleted because it was an inappropriate rant. Wrong forum, wrong thread. My apologies.

Edited by Piglet68 - 8/1/11 at 10:02am

[RJ11]

You should go head to head with my 4 year old - he likes to break down everything I say and tell me why I'm wrong. I get it.  You were here first. Instead of out "crunching" people you should be happy that natural parenting IS becoming more mainstream - although not up to your standards yet. I still co-sleep with both my kids. I BF my son until he was over 3 and only weaned because I was pregnant and had food poisoning. But maybe you are thinking if I followed the Paleo diet that would not have happened - and yes I did know what that was. I never tried time outs until after my son was 4 and only because I am drowning here. The saddest part of this whole experience for me is that this is the first time I have reached out for help concerning my son who most likely has AS. I need help but now I just feel judged and like some ridiculous fool because I defended the super nanny - I only did that because you implied I DO NOT BELONG HERE because I mentioned her to begin with.

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by RJ11 

I need help but now I just feel judged and like some ridiculous fool because I defended the super nanny - I only did that because you implied I DO NOT BELONG HERE because I mentioned her to begin with.

I am really sorry that you thought I was suggesting you didn't belong here. Looking back over that first reply of mine I can see how it might have come across that way, though that was not at all my intention. I was just ranting about MDC in general and I actually was going to go back and delete my latest post last night because I realized it was not the right thread or forum for my ranting, and it was unfair to pick on you, someone who had come here for help. In fact, I'm going to delete the post now.

I wasn't trying to suggest you don't know what Paleo is (sigh - using the general application of the word "you" always gets me in trouble in text-only media!) my point was just that Super Nanny probably thinks there is only one way (her way) and isn't even aware of other ways. The fact that you are here obviously means you are aware that there are other, non-mainstream options out there and again, I'm sorry if I made it sound like this was directed at you. 

You aren't being judged, you are certainly not ridiculous, and you have just as much right as I do or anybody does to be on MDC. I hope you won't let one poster who has a reputation for putting her foot in her mouth (that would be me!) scare you away from this place, which is full of amazing, wise, and wonderful mamas who would love to support you in your journey.

[RJ11]

OK, no worries. I can be overly sensitive.

[beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Piglet68 

Be his "coach" and practice with him on what's expected, how others respond to things (like having someone getting in their face), etc. Treat it as if you are teaching him brand new skills, because likely he is not aware of what is expected by others and many kids want to know and are grateful to have the information.  

Yes! It's so important to model over and over (and over and over and over ... ;) ) what the expected behavior or course of action should be for the child. We've found that we use modeling in the play we engage in with her, as bits of conversation we have while watching her favorite shows together, in rewarding her (by praising her effusively!) when she does engage in the expected behavior. It takes her considerably longer than her peers to learn the new skill but she does learn it eventually. Especially if we model it in a variety of different settings and situations. We have to actually demonstrate to her taht she is expected to use the appropriate behavior in a variety of settings before she can start to do that. She always works from the expectation that things apply to only one instance or setting unless we repeatedly show her otherwise.

Unlike a NT kid who is likely to pick up on cues to learn new behavior, ASD kids need behavior expectations to be taught to them like you'd teach them how to tie shoelaces, zip a zipper, brush their teeth or throw and catch a ball.

[heatherdeg]

Time outs never worked on my son, either.  And he absolutely didn't function as well when there was less structure.  He's now 7-1/2 and we homeschool; and we have to make sure to have routines and structure in place.  The second we have a week with absolutely nothing on our plate and tons of free time, IT'S. A. DISASTER.  In fact, at one point, I caved to some gentle bullying about being "overscheduled" and pulled back a bit only to have my household fall apart.  :(

I loved the Positive Discipline for Preschoolers book.  It seriously saved my life when every other mainstream parenting book made me chuckle... outright.  They had clearly never dealt with my kid.

Hope it helps.