Dangers of VPDs to older children and adults who are not vaxed

[MarineWife]

Does anyone have any clear info on this? I've tried a couple of google searches but haven't come up with much. Is there a certain age at which these "childhood" diseases become essentially benign or not any more dangerous than catching a cold or the flu?

I have read that chickenpox can be very painful in teens and adults and shingles is extremely painful. The shingles/chickenpox connection confuses me a little. The way I understand it is that the varicella virus can lay dormant in the body for years and then be reactivated and present as shingles but then I read stuff about the risk of getting shingles later in life if a child is not vaxed. If you've never been vaxed and never been exposed to chickenpox you would not have the virus in your body and, therefore, not be at risk of getting shingles as an adult, right?

[Chloebelle]

Right. You can not get Shingles if you have not had Chickenpox.

I got Shingles, and so did my DH. Painful yes, but mine was pretty mild and tolerable. DH's was much worse and he still has scars a few years later.

[ma2two]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chloebelle 

You can not get Shingles if you have not had Chickenpox.

Actually, anyone who has the chickenpox virus in their body can get shingles. That includes exposure from the vaccine, which is a live virus.

[Marnica]

Most of the childhood diseases ARE more benign  in childhood. Vaccination has made it so adults are more at risk (unless they get boosters throughout their life).

I had CP as an adult. Unpleasant yes, deadly hardly. That is not to say that getting CP as an adult cannot be serious.

[MarineWife]

Here's where my concern is coming from. If my children are not vaxed (which they are not) and they are never exposed to any of these live viruses because so many children are vaxed, are they then at risk of getting these diseases and having more serious complications as teens or adults? Or, is it that, while they are still at risk of getting these diseases as adults, the outcome for adults isn't such a big deal?

I don't have any intentions of vaxing my kids but it really bothers me that they may never get any natural immunity to these diseases, either. Another concern of mine is that my dh goes overseas a lot. He is in Afghanistan right now. I was just reading the other day that Afghanistan is one of the few countries that still has problems with polio. Is it possible for my dh to be a carrier of polio even though he's been vaxed, come home from Afghanistan and infect my unvaxed children?

[miriam]

People who have had chicken pox harbor the herpes zoster virus in their body. You get chicken pox as a child and carry that virus around for the rest of your life. As an adult and as a senior, your body re-develops antibodies against chicken pox when one is around children who have the chicken pox.  

No one know if this works for adults who are around children who have the chicken pox vaccine since no one bothered to study the subject; we get to find out on our own - the post marketing surveillance.  

Good  thread.  Thank you. 

This is a nasty, but good, read. 

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ropeik-vaccines-20110718,0,4240440.story

Here is another - just follow the AAP schedule and do not ask any questions.  We know what is good for you.

http://thestir.cafemom.com/toddler/123244/7_reasons_you_shouldnt_refuse

And the fallout in the UK from Rupert Murdoch; his son is still on the board of GlaxoSmithKline.

http://www.pharmalot.com/index-ad-new.html?gotourl=http://www.pharmalot.com/2011/07/should-james-murdoch-remain-on-the-glaxo-board/

Edited by miriam - 7/20/11 at 2:45pm

[BeckyBird]

That second article is hilarious. So, they claim all autism fears have been put to rest because Wakefield has been discredited. Wow, how far from the truth can it get? As if the question began and ended with Wakefield. As if autism is the only reason to not vaccinate, and that all research on vaccines and autism is over, case closed, research is finished, move along. The entire article is ridiculous! Thanks for posting it, because I rarely read "pro-vax" pieces anymore. It's nice to see what we're up against--a bunch of fear-mongering half-truths.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by miriam 

People who have had chicken pox harbor the herpes zoster virus in their body. You get chicken pox as a child and carry that virus around for the rest of your life. As an adult and as a senior, your body re-develops antibodies against chicken pox when one is around children who have the chicken pox.  

No one know if this works for adults who are around children who have the chicken pox vaccine since no one bothered to study the subject; we get to find out on our own

Right but then why are people so concerned about unvaxed children getting chickenpox and shingles as adults? Or am I confusing things?

I'm looking for info on how these diseases affect older children (teens) and adults who were not vaxed and have very little chance of being exposed to the diseases as young children. I guess if enough children don't get vaxed and there is an upsurge in the incidence of disease, my children will then have a better chance of being exposes to the actual disease and getting true immunity.

I tried to expose my middle child to CP when he was 3. A friend's child got CP from a kid at school who had recently gotten vaxed. My ds did not get the rash but he did get very mild cold/flu like symptoms right after. I don't know if that was enough for him or not. I don't know how I'll get my youngest, who is now 4, exposed to CP or my baby who will be born soon.

In the pro-vax arguments, no one seems to take lifestyle into account when they go on and on about unvaxed infants being at high risk of contracting these diseases. Breastfeeding provides protection against disease as does keeping your babies and young children out of daycares and preschools. I homeschool so I don't worry so much about diseases that run through school children, although we do seem to get all the colds at the same time as the school children because my 7yo ds plays with the other neighborhood kids.

My 7yo has been expressing a desire to go to school recently and the fact that he's not vaxed is a big concern to me. I think putting him in school would put him at a higher risk of getting any disease just by nature of the environment. We all know that having large numbers of people in enclosed spaces for extended periods results in more frequent illness. So, at 7, do I need to be worried that if he got something like measles or HIB, it would be worse now than when he was say 1yo?

Ya know, I don't even know what all the vaccines or diseases are these days. My 20yo ds was fully vaxed until we got to the 12yo boosters so the last time he got any vaxed was before 2003. We stopped vaxing my middle ds at 4 months after he had what I consider a severe reaction to the pertussis vaccine. That was in 2004. My 4yo has not been vaxed at all. I have no idea what's on the vax schedule now.

I guess I need to look at the vax schedule and read a little more on the diseases. One thing that helped me decide to not vax at all was the fact that, even according to the info on the CDC website, these VPDS (measles, mumps, CP, the flu, even pertussis) are not usually very dangerous in young children. Finding info on how dangerous they are for older children, teens and adults has been harder to find.

[lovebeingamomma]

There have been a number of cases in my area of children getting shingles that had gotten the Varicella vaccine (not as a reaction to the vaccine; some years later).  So yes it happens.  My grandfather has nerve damage and chronic pain from getting Shingles a few years ago.  I know they now have a Shingles vaccine that you can get I think past 60 years of age.  After seeing what he went thru, I can understand why some would be thrilled to get this vaccine...if it works. 
 

Originally Posted by ma2two 

Quote:

Actually, anyone who has the chickenpox virus in their body can get shingles. That includes exposure from the vaccine, which is a live virus.

Edited by lovebeingamomma - 7/19/11 at 10:46am

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma 

There have been a number of cases in my area of children getting shingles that had gotten the Varicella vaccine (not as a reaction to the vaccine; some years later).  So yes it happens.

Yeah, I get that. What I'm wondering is, what is the concern for older children, teens and adults who have not been vaxed or had CP or any of the other VPDs?

To explain a little further, I'm going to assume that the reason these diseases were considered childhood diseases back in the days before vaccines was because most people would get them as young children, recover and acquire immunity. They would get natural boosters when they were older by being exposed to younger children who had the diseases and, so, would not get them as adults. Maybe that's why there doesn't seem to be much info on how these diseases affect older children, teens and adults.

Now with the majority of babies and very young children being vaxed, adults who were not vaxed but exposed to the disease are not getting the natural boosters that we used to get from being around younger children who got them. That's why, for example, shingles in older adults is on the rise. These older people are not getting the natural varicella booster by being around children with CP because these children are being vaxed.

So, young children who are never vaxed and are not exposed to the diseases naturally because so many others are vaxed aren't getting any kind of immunity to these diseases. That means that as older children, teens and adults they are more likely to contract the disease for the first time if there is an outbreak. So, is it worse for these people to get the diseases when they are older or is there an age at which these diseases become essentially benign since they are considered childhood diseases?

I hope all of that makes sense.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 



Yeah, I get that. What I'm wondering is, what is the concern for older children, teens and adults who have not been vaxed or had CP or any of the other VPDs?

To explain a little further, I'm going to assume that the reason these diseases were considered childhood diseases back in the days before vaccines was because most people would get them as young children, recover and acquire immunity. They would get natural boosters when they were older by being exposed to younger children who had the diseases and, so, would not get them as adults. Maybe that's why there doesn't seem to be much info on how these diseases affect older children, teens and adults.

Now with the majority of babies and very young children being vaxed, adults who were not vaxed but exposed to the disease are not getting the natural boosters that we used to get from being around younger children who got them. That's why, for example, shingles in older adults is on the rise. These older people are not getting the natural varicella booster by being around children with CP because these children are being vaxed.

So, young children who are never vaxed and are not exposed to the diseases naturally because so many others are vaxed aren't getting any kind of immunity to these diseases. That means that as older children, teens and adults they are more likely to contract the disease for the first time if there is an outbreak. So, is it worse for these people to get the diseases when they are older or is there an age at which these diseases become essentially benign since they are considered childhood diseases?

I hope all of that makes sense.

Chicken pox can be more severe in an adult, however it doesn't HAVE to be. As I said I had a bad case of CP as a 20 something and I'm just fine. I know a woman who had CP in her 20's and was hospitalized. (she's fine too btw). She was a smoker, I am not. Perhaps that had something to do with it - who knows. I firmly believe that an adult who takes care of themselves, eats right, exercises , doesn't smoke and has a strong immune system and doesn't "treat" Cp inappropraitely like gobbling up tylenol or advil or taking gobs of benydryl for the itching would be just fine. The other childhood disease that potentially could be more severe in an adult is measles, but y same thinking applies here.
 

[MarineWife]

What about older kids, say over 7 or over 10, and teens? It seems that everything I read says these diseases are most severe in infants and people with compromised immune systems but I can't find any good info on what they are really like for older kids and so on.

I went back to the CDC website. It's been totally revamped since the last time I looked into all of this (years ago) and now I can't find the info on how the diseases progressed before vaccines. Now I can only find stuff that says this is dangerous and that is dangerous and, if you don't vaccinate, this could happen but no actual numbers or data or anything.

[miriam]

Reasons you need to vaccinate...

http://thestir.cafemom.com/toddler/123244/7_reasons_you_shouldnt_refuse

#6

6. Unvaccinated Children Die Every Year From Preventable Illnesses

A number of children die every year, even right here in the United States, because they were not immunized. The flu, Hib and pertussis (whooping cough) are just a few of those killers. California experienced large whooping cough outbreaks from 2009 to 2010. Sadly, some of those infants infected lost their lives. I can’t imagine the excruciating pain a parent must feel knowing their child died from an infection that they could have prevented with a simple vaccination.

The children who died in CA were too young for the vaccine or were not properly diagnosed in time for proper treatment. There were ten documented deaths.

Furthermore, this link:  

http://www.health.state.ny.us/prevention/immunization/vaccine_safety/harm.htm?utm_source=cafe_mom&utm_medium=blog&utm_campaign=outreach

...provides NO evidence or scientific data of children who have died from parents intentionally not vaccinating their children.  There is an anecdote of a 5 year old boy who died of the flu.  

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 

What about older kids, say over 7 or over 10, and teens? It seems that everything I read says these diseases are most severe in infants and people with compromised immune systems but I can't find any good info on what they are really like for older kids and so on.

I went back to the CDC website. It's been totally revamped since the last time I looked into all of this (years ago) and now I can't find the info on how the diseases progressed before vaccines. Now I can only find stuff that says this is dangerous and that is dangerous and, if you don't vaccinate, this could happen but no actual numbers or data or anything.

 Most illnesses are more severe and potentially more deadly in infants because infants immune systems are immature. This is why breastfeeding is so important. A child who is not immunocompromised, and was healthy (as I have defined it in my above post) 7 yrs to even a teenager would most likely fare just fine with most diseases. I think many of the "complications" that are seen with CP and measles (no matter what the age) have to do with inappropriate treatments.

[ammiga]

My sister and I were 6 and 8 when we had CP. We itched for several days and went on with life.

[semi-crunchy]

Where can I get information on how to properly treat various diseases (I was not aware there was a correct way to treat measles, etc). 
 

Originally Posted by Marnica 

 Most illnesses are more severe and potentially more deadly in infants because infants immune systems are immature. This is why breastfeeding is so important. A child who is not immunocompromised, and was healthy (as I have defined it in my above post) 7 yrs to even a teenager would most likely fare just fine with most diseases. I think many of the "complications" that are seen with CP and measles (no matter what the age) have to do with inappropriate treatments.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by semi-crunchy 

Where can I get information on how to properly treat various diseases (I was not aware there was a correct way to treat measles, etc). 
 

My opinion:

Childhood diseases like measles are self limiting and the body will heal itself without any intervention necessary. Complications can arise, largely (yes I know apparently healthy children can die of common childhood diseases) when the body's natural healing processes (ie symptoms) are suppressed though antibiotics, antivirals, antipyretics and pain medications etc. Nutritional deficiencies will also hamper the healing process which is why large doses of vitamin A are often given to children in third world countries because they are generally malnourished. Vitamin A is probably a good idea for children in this country if they are on a highly processed diet also. I had measles when I was around 7, my mother certainly didn't know the "proper" way to treat measles, or rubella, mumps and chicken pox for that matter, I am sure we got cough medicine and junior aspirin (her remedy of choice for all things). We were sick for a week, recovered and went back to school.

I recommend this book, if you want more concrete information, Your Vital Child by Mark and Angela Stengler, it is out of print but is readily available.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

My opinion:

Childhood diseases like measles are self limiting and the body will heal itself without any intervention necessary. Complications can arise, largely (yes I know apparently healthy children can die of common childhood diseases) when the body's natural healing processes (ie symptoms) are suppressed though antibiotics, antivirals, antipyretics and pain medications etc. Nutritional deficiencies will also hamper the healing process which is why large doses of vitamin A are often given to children in third world countries because they are generally malnourished. Vitamin A is probably a good idea for children in this country if they are on a highly processed diet also. I had measles when I was around 7, my mother certainly didn't know the "proper" way to treat measles, or rubella, mumps and chicken pox for that matter, I am sure we got cough medicine and junior aspirin (her remedy of choice for all things). We were sick for a week, recovered and went back to school.

I recommend this book, if you want more concrete information, Your Vital Child by Mark and Angela Stengler, it is out of print but is readily available.

I agree with this. I also am into homeopathy. There are several remedies that have been used for hundreds of years to successfully manage any uncomfortable symptoms that arise that aid the body' s natural healing capabilities, not hinder it. Another book that touches on ways of naturally handling these diseases is "Raising a Vaccine Free Child" by Wendy Lydall. For example, she talks about how it is important not to let a child with measles become chilled and why.
 

[miriam]

.
 

Edited by miriam - Yesterday at 6:15 pm

[kathymuggle]

I have not vaccinated my kids (well, my son got a bit before I changed my mind on the issue) but I am considering  both rubella and CP for the girls as they hit their teen years.  I will check titres first, and see how many actual cases of rubella and CP are floating around.  In some ways this should be an adult decision, but we do know teen girls occasionally get pregnant

I know a woman who had CP when she was pregnant and  the baby was affected greatly.

I might get a shingles vax when I am older...or not.  I do consider it an adult decision, as such I think you can leave the decision to your kids.  JMHO.