Help with DH

[MommyEnchanted]

Okay, I am on board with the GD method. DH is skeptical. When he was a kid he was spanked. It's just how it works for him. I was spanked too, but I still think it's abuse. I have managed to get him to stop spanking Ella (who is only 3 in a couple of weeks) but now he has taken the, 'well since you know best, obviously YOU should handle them' approach. Which causes me to overstress and I end up yelling at the my children when things get out of hand.

For the record, the spankings he gave my daughter weren't with a belt or anything, just a single open handed pop on a clothed, diapered bum. Still, though, not a desirable punishment. 

I don't want to yell. I don't want him to back off and think his only role in the family is to earn money, and help create more children. I think I may have made him feel that way though, and I'm not entirely sure how to fix this situation. He honestly thinks children should be well behaved and should mind their parents, and spankings are a mean to that end. My explanation that the girls are only toddlers doesn't seem to matter though. I tried asking him what he thinks 'well behaved' means and he couldn't really give me an answer.

I feel like we are on two different pages here, and I don't know what to do! How do I get him to understand where I am coming from and how do I understand where he is at? Because at this point, I am all sorts of confused! 

[phathui5]

I think a good way to start is for the two of you to set up a "meeting" to discuss discipline issues at a time when both of you are calm and you're not dealing with anything else. Preferably when your daughter is with someone else so you can talk without being interrupted.

Do some reading beforehand, maybe copy a couple of articles for him. Tell him plainly about your feelings and why you want to discipline differently than the two of you were parented. Let him as you questions. Ask him to help you come up with solutions to discipline issues that don't involve hitting.

Be patient with him. You're asking him to make a paradigm shift and it's a big change for a lot of people.

[hakeber]

I agree with the above.  I also think you need to decide what sort of kids you want to raise.  Do you want kids who are going to question and explore or kids who will listen and obey?  Do you want kids who will be respectful because they respect you or fear you (or a combination of both)?

I think you also need to define what your relationship goals are with your children.  Do you wish to be thier authority figures or do you wish to be teachers and guidance counsellors?

These are all very personal choices and you can both have different relationships with your kids.

I also think it has been dangerous for me to describe my DH's childhood as abusive, though I certainly do feel his mother is an abusive person who hasn't got the skills to communicate her needs or her desires without threatening physical violence and using verbal violence.  He doesn't see it that way.  To suggest otherwise is to suggest he is damaged (which he kind of is...but aren't we all in some way?).  It puts up his defense and this stops all genuine discussion...so I unloaded this and just pointed out all the better ways to reach our goals.

We outlined our goals as parents, both in terms of who we wanted to raise, who our son seemed to be in his own self, what we wanted tp encourage and preserve and what we wanted to mold into better traits and we talked about how discussion, firm limits and non-violence was the way to go...it reaches our goals BETTER, more EFFICIENTLY, and more SUSTAINABLY because this kid is tall as heck for his age and one day soon he is going to be bigger than us and then what?  Using logic and evidence and a PLAN will probably make him feel more confident.  It is scary to walk the terrain of GD without a map.

[Mittsy]

I've had similar problems with my DH, although not quite to the extent you're having. I gave him 3 choices, take a parenting class together, go to counseling together, or hold very regular family meetings where we discuss discipline. He chose the latter option, we're also working in a gentle discipline book review into our meetings so we will each understand the other's aspirations when it comes to discipline and the family in general. Here's one book I recommend to almost everyone, thanks to this book we put together a "family mission statement" that's helped clarify a lot of discipline issues, I LOVE it!

http://www.amazon.com/Respectful-Parents-Kids-Conflict-Cooperation/dp/1892005220/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311175882&sr=8-1

[hildare]

mittsy, would you feel good about sharing your family mission statement with us?  i'd love to see it...

[MommyEnchanted]

Originally Posted by phathui5 

I think a good way to start is for the two of you to set up a "meeting" to discuss discipline issues at a time when both of you are calm and you're not dealing with anything else. Preferably when your daughter is with someone else so you can talk without being interrupted.

Do some reading beforehand, maybe copy a couple of articles for him. Tell him plainly about your feelings and why you want to discipline differently than the two of you were parented. Let him as you questions. Ask him to help you come up with solutions to discipline issues that don't involve hitting.

Be patient with him. You're asking him to make a paradigm shift and it's a big change for a lot of people.

Originally Posted by hakeber 

I agree with the above.  I also think you need to decide what sort of kids you want to raise.  Do you want kids who are going to question and explore or kids who will listen and obey?  Do you want kids who will be respectful because they respect you or fear you (or a combination of both)?

I think you also need to define what your relationship goals are with your children.  Do you wish to be thier authority figures or do you wish to be teachers and guidance counsellors?

These are all very personal choices and you can both have different relationships with your kids.

I also think it has been dangerous for me to describe my DH's childhood as abusive, though I certainly do feel his mother is an abusive person who hasn't got the skills to communicate her needs or her desires without threatening physical violence and using verbal violence.  He doesn't see it that way.  To suggest otherwise is to suggest he is damaged (which he kind of is...but aren't we all in some way?).  It puts up his defense and this stops all genuine discussion...so I unloaded this and just pointed out all the better ways to reach our goals.

We outlined our goals as parents, both in terms of who we wanted to raise, who our son seemed to be in his own self, what we wanted tp encourage and preserve and what we wanted to mold into better traits and we talked about how discussion, firm limits and non-violence was the way to go...it reaches our goals BETTER, more EFFICIENTLY, and more SUSTAINABLY because this kid is tall as heck for his age and one day soon he is going to be bigger than us and then what?  Using logic and evidence and a PLAN will probably make him feel more confident.  It is scary to walk the terrain of GD without a map.

Because of how he was raised (and I hate to call it abusive too, especially because his mother and father are both very good about expressing feelings, and desires. They have even both apologized for raising him the way that they did) he feels fear is the way to go when raising children. He was raised in a church (he is an atheist now) that believes in instilling FEAR in children to get them to be obedient and respectful, especially of God. It is/was very puritanical. He tells me he hated that indoctrination, but he still seems to be harbouring some of it. 

Also he hates authority, but he wants us to be their authority figures. But then he tells me he wants our children to grow up to be creative people who are intelligent enough to not be sheep in society. I think that may be my 'in' so to speak, but everything I've tried so far hasn't worked, lol. 

Originally Posted by Mittsy 

I've had similar problems with my DH, although not quite to the extent you're having. I gave him 3 choices, take a parenting class together, go to counseling together, or hold very regular family meetings where we discuss discipline. He chose the latter option, we're also working in a gentle discipline book review into our meetings so we will each understand the other's aspirations when it comes to discipline and the family in general. Here's one book I recommend to almost everyone, thanks to this book we put together a "family mission statement" that's helped clarify a lot of discipline issues, I LOVE it!

http://www.amazon.com/Respectful-Parents-Kids-Conflict-Cooperation/dp/1892005220/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311175882&sr=8-1

I do like the idea of having meetings and creating a family mission statement of sorts. I may invest in this book! Or, I do own Unconditional Parenting and Parenting with a Purpose. What if we read a chapter together every night? Then we discussed what we read and how we felt about it?

You all have given me such great ideas, thank you so much.  I appreciate it more than I can express. It is a terrible feeling to be on different pages like this. It's more like we are in different books entirely, lol. 
 

[holothuroidea]

My husband had a very abusive childhood and he is eager to break the cycle. The biggest step to doing this was recognizing and admitting that he was abused. 

I've been reading a lot of books (Unconditional Parenting, Playful Parenting, Raising our Children Raising Ourselves, Parenting for a Peaceful World). He's not a good reader, so whenever I come upon a relevant part in a book I read it aloud to him and we talk about it. 

[intentionalmama]

Unconditional Parenting by Alpfie Kohn, that Holothuroidea above just mentioned, also comes in a dvd that the two of you may want to watch together.  It is an easy watch, I believe funny at times (my hubby and I watched it years ago) and may help your hubby feel a little more confident in raising your child in a way that feels right for both of you.

[Mittsy]

hildare: We did a very basic mission statement basically outlining the values we want to instill in our children, activities we can do to foster those values.... And, after we agreed that when disciplining children if something they did does not disrupt said values we'll let it slide or compromise, if it does interfere with the values then we both work together towards a acceptable goal. We had already previously agreed on the major things like no physical punishment, no time-outs, no threatening/shaming....

MommyEnchanted: IMO I would not start out with Unconditional Parenting, I would leave that for later on as it can be viewed as "radical" by some parents. I don't think I've read Parenting With A Purpose, so no advice there. We try to aim for 1-2 chapters a week since DH is usually pretty busy, but just do whatever suits your schedule. Good luck!

[ashtak]

Mommyenchanted, this was almost exactly my same situation. my LOs are now 5 and 4 and my DP has been spank-free and "authority' free for some time now! due to a very different cultural background he also had the idea that children should be obedient and fear is a crucial tool to achieve that effect. at first when my DS was young and i had such strong reactions to DPs form of discipline it caused much of the same arguments you describe and i vividly remember him telling me that i was on my own with discipline since he felt i alienated him. i kind of just took it in stride since i felt pretty confident that i should protect DS from that. 

however, after much much dialogue - occurring naturally whenever situations arose - he began to see a difference. he had never seen a child as genuinely obedient as our DS - not in a mechanical afraid way, but because he was actually capable of understanding my reasonings for things and appreciated being informed instead of scolded. DS demonstrates a lot of curiosity and creativity but he absolutely knows our rules and boundaries and takes it as a point of pride to uphold them. i think that inspired DP. i'm really proud of my DP for being open to seeing the positive effects of things he at first rejected and now he openly admits that children get more frustrated, rebellious, and distrustful when they are treated with force, but become more considerate, confident, and trusting when treated with powerful loving guidance. 

give it time. give it dialogue. just as GD uses a lot of natural consequences to 'show' instead of 'tell' children, the same principle can apply for DPs! 

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by MommyEnchanted 
Because of how he was raised (and I hate to call it abusive too, especially because his mother and father are both very good about expressing feelings, and desires. They have even both apologized for raising him the way that they did) he feels fear is the way to go when raising children. He was raised in a church (he is an atheist now) that believes in instilling FEAR in children to get them to be obedient and respectful, especially of God. It is/was very puritanical. He tells me he hated that indoctrination, but he still seems to be harbouring some of it.

Ask him, when you have your talk at a non-stressful time, what he wants to teach his child. Does he want to teach her fear? How else could he teach her what she needs to know without fear? Unfortunately, fear is the only tool he knows. That's why he's giving up. He doesn't have other strategies. I think your idea of learning together is a good one. If he can learn some new strategies, then he might be able to react more differently.

Remind him that the root of discipline was originally related to teach. If you care to get Biblical with him, you can remind him that the 12 disciples were taught by Jesus. They called him 'rabbi' or teacher. Our modern use of the word discipline has taken on connotations of punishment, but it's perfectly possible to discipline your child without hitting them. In fact, it works better.

Originally Posted by MommyEnchanted 

Also he hates authority, but he wants us to be their authority figures. But then he tells me he wants our children to grow up to be creative people who are intelligent enough to not be sheep in society. I think that may be my 'in' so to speak, but everything I've tried so far hasn't worked, lol. 

You might point out to him the difference between authoritarian and authoritative. Authoritarian is, according to my Merriam-Webster: of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority. Authoritative is having or proceeding from authority.

As parents, we strive to be authoritative, and I think it's important to agree with your husband that you want to be authority figures. But, you do not want to raise your child to have blind submission. There's good research that shows that kids with authoritarian parents and kids with permissive parents both have trouble. The 'right' balance between the two appears to be authoritarian -- in charge, but respectfully so.

Originally Posted by MommyEnchanted 

I do own Unconditional Parenting and Parenting with a Purpose.

Is it Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison? If it is, then I would highly recommend starting with that one. It actually starts with the idea of a 'mission statement' or purpose for parenting, and it's got very practical information and advice for different ages. There are a number of them out there with very similar titles, and if it's not that one, I don't know if I can recommend it.

I agree with Mittsy that Unconditional Parenting is "Advanced" Gentle Discipline. I like the ideas, but they're more theory than practical, and they assume that you've already bought into Gentle Discipline.

Other good 'starter books' (i.e. books to introduce the concept of GD) would be:

Becoming the Parent You Want to Be by Davis & Keyser

The Secret of Parenting: How to be in charge of today's kids from Toddlers to Teens without threats or punishments (the title might get your dh to read it!) by Anthony Wolfe

Positive Discipline: The First Three Years by Nelsen (she's got a whole series for different age groups, but it's essentially the same message). She also does podcasts if he won't read.

Further reading -- probably better as your child gets older.

Kids, Parents & Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka

How to Talk So Your Children will Listen and Listen So Your Children Will Talk by Faber & Mazlish

Playful Parenting by Cohen

[MommyEnchanted]

Thank you all for your advice.

Yesterday we had a situation where he wanted to put our oldest in time out because she didn't go to her room after he told her to, and I got upset. This opened a new dialogue between us, and we both agreed to disagree on spankings. He said that even though he thinks that spankings are the way to get children to behave, he will no longer spank. He told me the reason he believes spankings work is because he was a 'little shit' as a child and deserved every spanking he got. Lol, so even though his parents regret spanking him, he thinks he would have turned out to be a worse person had they not. 

We are going to read Parenting With Purpose together, because as some of you have pointed out, Unconditional Parenting seemed a little too advanced for where we are now, and we may never be to that point.

We also discussed how our pasts shaped how we view discipline. I was raised in a highly abusive home. There was almost no love when I was growing up. His life was strict, but loving. He was trying to help me understand that it is possible to spank, but still be a loving parent. In my mind, hitting does not in any way equal love. Ever. How could it? But he, nor his siblings, harbor any resentment towards their parents and they all have a very close relationship. So that confused me, and had me a little worried about whether I was making the right choice, but after more thought I decided I was right. DH and his siblings are a rare case, I think.

Anyway, thank you again, everyone for your advice. I appreciate it very much. :) 

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by MommyEnchanted 

Thank you all for your advice.

Yesterday we had a situation where he wanted to put our oldest in time out because she didn't go to her room after he told her to, and I got upset. This opened a new dialogue between us, and we both agreed to disagree on spankings. He said that even though he thinks that spankings are the way to get children to behave, he will no longer spank. He told me the reason he believes spankings work is because he was a 'little shit' as a child and deserved every spanking he got. Lol, so even though his parents regret spanking him, he thinks he would have turned out to be a worse person had they not. 

This could be a very interesting point of discussion in and of itself.  Despite the fact that his parents love him and now feel regret for thier choices and wish they had not spanked him and that indeed he did not deserve the spankings he got, he believes he did. Why? and more to the point:  Does he want his children to feel the same way about themselves?  that they are "little shit[s]" and that they deserve physical pain?  Because despite their intentions, that was the message so deeply ingrained by his upbringing...was he really a little shit, or did the spankings he got tell him in no uncertain terms that he was a little shit and so he believed it.  Many child psychologists believe that children grow to believe they deserve whatever it is they are given.  If he was given spankings he grew to believe he deserved them (I have heard my DH say the same thing and it was a window into which he was able to see the negative aspects of spanking-- it was uncomfortable for him to see this and admit it but productive).  He knew his parents were loving and honest and good people so if they also caused him pain he must have deserved it, right?  This is quite typical for children to believe in order for them to rectify the incongruency between the love and affection their parents give them and the spankings, yelling, threats and fear.  So is that a belief he wants his children to have about themselves? (I assume not, but asking him the question might get him to realize what he believes about himself and also make ammends with his inner child whom he has been villanizing his whole life since this is obviously shaping the way he relates to his own children if he believes deep down that children are capable of ulterior motives or of being inherently "little shit[s]")  Is there another way he can reach his goals of desirable behavior without using fear as a tactic? (yes...there a re many ways)

We are going to read Parenting With Purpose together, because as some of you have pointed out, Unconditional Parenting seemed a little too advanced for where we are now, and we may never be to that point.

We also discussed how our pasts shaped how we view discipline. I was raised in a highly abusive home. There was almost no love when I was growing up. His life was strict, but loving. He was trying to help me understand that it is possible to spank, but still be a loving parent. In my mind, hitting does not in any way equal love. Ever. How could it? But he, nor his siblings, harbor any resentment towards their parents and they all have a very close relationship. So that confused me, and had me a little worried about whether I was making the right choice, but after more thought I decided I was right. DH and his siblings are a rare case, I think.

Anyway, thank you again, everyone for your advice. I appreciate it very much. :) 

I do not know if they are a rare case.  I think many people who grow up in spanking homes see the spankings they got as tough love and protection.  It is a rather sad view IMO of justifying inferior parenting skills. We all know that most mentally normative and capale parents do the best they can by their kids and none of them wants to hurt their children or see them feel demeaned or humilated, but they justify these actions as being what is best for them (the ends justify the means, side effects be damned)  but they do not reach the ends in genuine or sustainable ways.  They merely look to skip over the hard work and get to a kid who listens and does as they are told...and we wonder why the teenage years are so hard? 

I think anything you can get your DH to read and listen to is AWESOME.  My DH only stalks my posts now and then on this board when I leave it open and reads what you all have to say and will occassionally discuss issues with me in the pub over a beer, but sit down and read a chapter from a book or an actual parenting article from a magazine...HA! If you have a partner that willing, definitely go for it! 
 

BTW:  In the future, something that works for us when we feels like using TOs punitively, is that I say to DH or he says to me (as a sidebar out of ear and eyeshot of the children) we say "honey, perhaps YOU need a time out to cool off?  How about you run down to the store and pick up some XYZ for later.  I'll have a chat with DS while you're gone."

or, suggest a Time-in to him...he asks DD to go and have a talk, and they can go to the special quiet place and have a chat about appropriate/acceptable human behavior in the family spaces.

Edited by hakeber - 7/22/11 at 9:30am

[Mittsy]

MommyEnchanted: The whole "little shit" comment from your dh really embodies for me why nvc in general, and especially a nvc based parenting approach is needed. Children are NOT "little shits", just like adults don't say something "just to piss someone else off", we are all people with feelings and needs and deserving of equal treatment and respect. Feelings and needs are at the very root of behavior, if we can fufill our needs on a regular basis then there is no "misbehavior", and all the things we view as "misbehavior" in children are either age appropriate and we need to lower our expectations, or they are the sign of a child screaming out for one of their needs to stop being ignored!

IMO spanking is child abuse, plain and simple. We should NOT be treating children any differently than we would treat a respected adult, although admittely I fall short on this on occasion. Show your dh this website about spanking, this is one issue you need to see eye to eye on. Can you trust your dh to not spank when he's home alone with the kids, nothing seems to be working, and he's stressed?

http://nospank.net/

[MommyEnchanted]

Originally Posted by Mittsy 

MommyEnchanted: The whole "little shit" comment from your dh really embodies for me why nvc in general, and especially a nvc based parenting approach is needed. Children are NOT "little shits", just like adults don't say something "just to piss someone else off", we are all people with feelings and needs and deserving of equal treatment and respect. Feelings and needs are at the very root of behavior, if we can fufill our needs on a regular basis then there is no "misbehavior", and all the things we view as "misbehavior" in children are either age appropriate and we need to lower our expectations, or they are the sign of a child screaming out for one of their needs to stop being ignored!

IMO spanking is child abuse, plain and simple. We should NOT be treating children any differently than we would treat a respected adult, although admittely I fall short on this on occasion. Show your dh this website about spanking, this is one issue you need to see eye to eye on. Can you trust your dh to not spank when he's home alone with the kids, nothing seems to be working, and he's stressed?

http://nospank.net/

I can actually. DH is a very calm, levelheaded person. He only gets stressed about one thing: Money. When the girls are driving him to a point he can't handle, he usually tells them that it's quiet time, they should all go watch a movie. The girls then go watch some campy disney movie while he takes a time out and watches something mindless. 

It's a method we both use, actually, to refrain from getting to a yelling point, or to give ourselves a break. 

ETA: I agree about the little shit comment. He has never been called that, he just thinks that his constant mischief causing was deserving of that title. 

[MommyEnchanted]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

I do not know if they are a rare case.  I think many people who grow up in spanking homes see the spankings they got as tough love and protection.  It is a rather sad view IMO of justifying inferior parenting skills. We all know that most mentally normative and capale parents do the best they can by their kids and none of them wants to hurt their children or see them feel demeaned or humilated, but they justify these actions as being what is best for them (the ends justify the means, side effects be damned)  but they do not reach the ends in genuine or sustainable ways.  They merely look to skip over the hard work and get to a kid who listens and does as they are told...and we wonder why the teenage years are so hard? 

I think anything you can get your DH to read and listen to is AWESOME.  My DH only stalks my posts now and then on this board when I leave it open and reads what you all have to say and will occassionally discuss issues with me in the pub over a beer, but sit down and read a chapter from a book or an actual parenting article from a magazine...HA! If you have a partner that willing, definitely go for it! 
 

BTW:  In the future, something that works for us when we feels like using TOs punitively, is that I say to DH or he says to me (as a sidebar out of ear and eyeshot of the children) we say "honey, perhaps YOU need a time out to cool off?  How about you run down to the store and pick up some XYZ for later.  I'll have a chat with DS while you're gone."

or, suggest a Time-in to him...he asks DD to go and have a talk, and they can go to the special quiet place and have a chat about appropriate/acceptable human behavior in the family spaces.

This is our BIGGEST issue. We finally came to an agreement on what acceptable human behaviour is. We said that anything that infringes on the three basic human rights of Life, Liberty and Property, are unacceptable. He thinks that because we are our children's authority, caregivers, and source of survival, that they need to mind us. I was like... Blind submission to YOUR orders is not how I want to raise our children. He thinks that because our children can't reason, that they won't understand when we talk to them. My question for him: How will they learn to reason if we don't provide an example?

[intentionalmama]

I think the following quote from Hakeber has a lot of wisdom in it.

This could be a very interesting point of discussion in and of itself.  Despite the fact that his parents love him and now feel regret for thier choices and wish they had not spanked him and that indeed he did not deserve the spankings he got, he believes he did. Why? and more to the point:  Does he want his children to feel the same way about themselves?  that they are "little shit[s]" and that they deserve physical pain?  Because despite their intentions, that was the message so deeply ingrained by his upbringing...was he really a little shit, or did the spankings he got tell him in no uncertain terms that he was a little shit and so he believed it.  Many child psychologists believe that children grow to believe they deserve whatever it is they are given.  If he was given spankings he grew to believe he deserved them (I have heard my DH say the same thing and it was a window into which he was able to see the negative aspects of spanking-- it was uncomfortable for him to see this and admit it but productive).  He knew his parents were loving and honest and good people so if they also caused him pain he must have deserved it, right?  This is quite typical for children to believe in order for them to rectify the incongruency between the love and affection their parents give them and the spankings, yelling, threats and fear.  So is that a belief he wants his children to have about themselves? (I assume not, but asking him the question might get him to realize what he believes about himself and also make ammends with his inner child whom he has been villanizing his whole life since this is obviously shaping the way he relates to his own children if he believes deep down that children are capable of ulterior motives or of being inherently "little shit[s]")  Is there another way he can reach his goals of desirable behavior without using fear as a tactic? (yes...there a re many ways)

I still think that watching the video Unconditional Parenting may be a good idea.  When we watched it, I don't think my husband was really on board with gentle discipline. The video is not as heavy  (not sure if that is the right word) as the book. It comes across as entertaining. We both enjoyed it.  The way I see it, is that it plants some seeds, and can help make sense of why it is important to treat children with respect.  I find that some guys, are not into reading parenting books. But if it is easy and entertaining it is an easier sell.  It doesn't give all the answers and it is not an instruction type material - but may serve to open the mind a bit.  What you may want to do is look at it first and see if you think it would be appropriate.  I guess what I am saying is I don't think you have to be on board with gentle discipline  to watch the video, just curious.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by MommyEnchanted 

I can actually. DH is a very calm, levelheaded person. He only gets stressed about one thing: Money. When the girls are driving him to a point he can't handle, he usually tells them that it's quiet time, they should all go watch a movie. The girls then go watch some campy disney movie while he takes a time out and watches something mindless. 

It's a method we both use, actually, to refrain from getting to a yelling point, or to give ourselves a break. 

ETA: I agree about the little shit comment. He has never been called that, he just thinks that his constant mischief causing was deserving of that title. 

Interesting...do you see any irony in the fact that money is his stress point and that when stressed out he asks them to watch a film geared towards selling children products produced by the single largest media conglommeration in the world? 

Perhaps a more productive method might be to ask them to play outside in the yard for a while, or take them to a play space if you do not have a yard or the weather is crappy, or play a board game?

Just saying. :D

 He thinks that because our children can't reason, that they won't understand when we talk to them. My question for him: How will they learn to reason if we don't provide an example? 

Children as young as yours are capable of understanding more than we give them credit for and if you try sign language with your youngest you will see that.  BUT he's right...the whole needs observation reflection and reasoning/negotiating etc is not really for the under 4 crowd, even for very verbal kids as it does require a modicum of emotional maturity and reflection that most kids don't yet have the ability for...but you can start to model for them.  Give them choices...do the observation and reflection and needs request for them...  Sounds like you're feeling __________, I bet you need___________, Do you want _____________ or ______________?

example:  Yesterday my LO who is a month and half or so older than yours was on the floor RAGING about not being allowed to take the glass dish to the sink (through two rooms with tile flooring) on her own.  I offered to help spot her...no good.  So then I took a moment while she freaked out...I said to myself there are three things going on here:  ONE, she hasn't eaten anything substantial in four hours.  TWO: she has slept only seven hours in the last 24 hours (we had been travelling) and THREE: she wants to show us she is a big girl who can help and CAN do stuff...how do I meet those needs?

So first I hugged her and nursed her and cooed to her what a big brave girl she is and how I KNOW she is so smart and SOOOO helpful for wanting to help.  Then I got her some peanut butter crackers.  She helped me put the PLASTIC dishes back in the kicthen when she was done and then we went for a sleep.  Sometimes I need to pass her off to DH to get to a point where my basic needs are met sufficiently to do this, and vice versa.  As you do this, the more you verbalize, the better.  Now that DS is 6 he can do some of this himself, but DH and I still have to do most of the process ourselves.

You're right, they need an example.  It's also important to give them an example by doing it for YOURSELF and verbalizing as you go.  Like:  Gosh I feel really grouchy right now!  I think I feeling overhwlemed and probably a little hungry.  I am going to get a snack and then I need 15 minutes to unwind.  Honey, can you watch the kids while I have a short quiet time?"

The more they see YOU two doing it, the easier it will be for them to start.