Trying to avoid sleep associations - thoughts?

[ashleyc]

Hi All,

My son is 8 weeks old and has been a pretty fussy, high-needs baby.  He came 3 weeks early, and I think he wishes he'd stayed in there a bit longer! :)

For the last 10 days, I have been trying to use a very gentle routine with him and I definitely think it has helped his fussiness and his sleep.  We have a night time ritual of bath, music, nursing in dark etc.  BUT the really problem comes when I try to take him off of me and put him in his bassinet.

We have a bassinet that is on an incline because he has reflux and that has helped, but generally I just don't think he likes being on his back and he starts crying/fussing pretty much immediately.  He does have bad gas and is not a good buper (they come up like 1 hour later!) so I'm trying to gauge whether the fussiness is gas or just that he'd rather be on me (I'm still learning to understand his different cries).

I try to soothe/relax him until his is drowsy but then put him down awake so he goes to sleep himself.  I am thinking of the future and don't want to be creating bad sleep associations.  But he doesn't like it.  He might actually fall asleep but five minutes later he is crying.  I try to go in and soothe him from the side of the bassinet, but he will have NONE of it.  No amount of whispering sweet nothings, tummy rubbing, shusshing does anything to quiet him, and so I obviously pick him up and then I try to quiet him and put him down again.  Sometimes we do this dance like 5 times or more.  Sometimes I top him off at the breast and put him down already asleep or essentially he falls asleep on my shoulder and I put him down or he ends up getting so exhausted from the crying and the up, down, up, down that he just falls asleep.  Needless to say this is kind of stressful.

I really, really do not want to create sleep associations that put us in an even more difficult spot in another month or two, especially when I'm back at work.  But I also realize he's 8 weeks.  Did anyone else have this problem where they just could not quiet their baby from the side of the crib/bassinet?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Ashley

[Deepfeet]

If there are parents out there that CAN quiet their 8 wk old babies from the side of the crib/bassinet I would have liked to talk to them 3 months ago.

I'm a new mom so I'm here more to encourage you than give you much advice. Don't worry about sleep associations just yet. From experience with my baby and friends' babies, they go through so many changes in sleep patterns in the first year - every time you think your LO is in a routine, they switch it on you!

DS at 6 wks dealt with some bad gas. laying him on me ( while I reclined) tummy to tummy was the best way for him to calm down and get his gas out. He slept on me that way many nights, and it was easier for him to pass gas that way too, he'd just curl his legs under himself and let it go without waking up too much.

We co-slept for a while, then DS preferred the bassinette for a while, then he was back with us, then in his crib, and now is back in bed with us. Sometimes he wants a lot of room to roll around, other times he wants to sleep with his fist wrapped around my finger and my body wrapped around his...

I totally understand your worry concerning his sleeping habits, but it sounds like maybe you already know how your baby's feeling? Maybe he wishes he had stayed inside a little longer. Maybe he wasn't ready for the distance birth creates and needs his mama just a little closer for a little while longer. Sometimes just knowing you can sleep with your mom whenever you want is enough to sleep sound in your own bed...

Just something to think about. 

Also, I think the babies that are easily soothed from the side of their crib at 8 wks are the rare wonder babies. Most babies just want to be held and feel that warm healing touch. 

I hope you figure something out that works for the two of you and doesn't result in late nights and less sleep!

[ashleyc]

Thanks for your kind words :)  I have gone a little nutso on reading sleep training books and so am feeling overwhelmed with information and deciding what I want to use in our home.  Even the "gentle" philosophies advice starting some sleep training from around the 8 week mark and recommend the "soothe by the side of the crib" approach (at least initially, before you pick them up, but then this indicates that they think it actually works!!).  Obviously, as you say, that doesn't work for my baby, and I do think this 4th trimester has been hard for him.

I'm trying to make sure my mentality is reasonable and patient, too.  I have had some MISERABLE days/nights where I felt so depressed, but I do try to see the bigger picture, that he is still young, and that I think, maybe, things are getting a little better.

I'm hoping I can let him tummy sleep as soon as he has more head/neck strength and/or can roll over.

[Deepfeet]

Its sometimes impossible to see the big picture when you're sleep deprived, ain't it?! I remember there were a few days/nights I was so tired/wired that I was seeing double - DOUBLE. Terrifying when you know you've reached an entirely different level of exhaustion and your baby still doesn't want to sleep. Parenthood is not for the faint at heart.

Also. Books will give you great advice but only you know what will work for your DS, don't stress yourself out too much, give the two of you some time, you might realize you're more of a baby-sleep expert than you thought.

[Marissamom]

young babies are not evolutionarily meant to sleep on their own. think about it, pre-developed-world it wouldn't be safe for a baby to sleep away from an adult. we're just starting to sometimes put my 4 month old in his bassinet occasionally, but he still sleeps so much better when we're snuggled up together. give it a couple of weeks, then try again. and put away the sleep-training books, sleep patterns are created by the child's needs, not by how their parents have handled sleep. 

[wehrli]

Originally Posted by Marissamom 

young babies are not evolutionarily meant to sleep on their own. think about it, pre-developed-world it wouldn't be safe for a baby to sleep away from an adult. we're just starting to sometimes put my 4 month old in his bassinet occasionally, but he still sleeps so much better when we're snuggled up together. give it a couple of weeks, then try again. and put away the sleep-training books, sleep patterns are created by the child's needs, not by how their parents have handled sleep. 

thanks for the reminder!

[DaisyMae08]

I think he's too young for that.  My son can fall asleep on his own now at 6 months, but at 8 weeks?  No way!  I would nurse him to sleep in the dark and put him directly from breast to crib.  I would not worry about sleep association problems just yet.  Do what works!

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by Marissamom 

young babies are not evolutionarily meant to sleep on their own. think about it, pre-developed-world it wouldn't be safe for a baby to sleep away from an adult. we're just starting to sometimes put my 4 month old in his bassinet occasionally, but he still sleeps so much better when we're snuggled up together. give it a couple of weeks, then try again. and put away the sleep-training books, sleep patterns are created by the child's needs, not by how their parents have handled sleep. 

Word!

I used to worry about nursing my baby to sleep, but then I realized it is what works for him, so don't mess with it! Yes, it makes it harder for anyone else to put him to sleep, but I try to remind myself this is such a short time in his life and before I know it he'll be a big boy and not need me as much anymore.

Most newborns need the security of physical contact to fall asleep. I think this idea that a baby should be put down sleepy but awake and be able to fall asleep on their own is nonsense. It's part of this whole belief system that has people thinking we need to train independence in small babies. Well, babies are not meant to be independent, and that's okay! In my observations, the babies who are trained to be more independent (by sleeping alone from an early age, made to fall asleep alone and/or sleep trained, weaned before one year, etc.) are the ones who come up with behavior problems or personality issues sooner rather than later. They feel abandoned, IMO. Babies are not meant to be independent. Remember: this time will go by so so fast, and you will never be this close to your child again. Savor it while it lasts! I promise, one day your child will fall asleep on his own!

[Deepfeet]

DOUBLE WORD

Whenever I stress about being the only person to put DS to sleep  I think about how quickly he is growing up and how precious it is to share sleep with him -  simply sacred moments. 

They don't last forever, and the more I cherish them, the easier the frustrating parts are to handle.

[anjsmama]

   ITA, unfortunately. I started "shushing" DS at 8 weeks and he STTN by 12 weeks. He was also 3 weeks early (and 4 lb 11 oz). There are about a million things I didn't know then that I know now. I thought it was awesome that my baby slept 12 hours a night (and in some ways, it was) but if I could go back I'd let him sleep on my belly and in my room and pick him up when he fussed. I never allowed him to cry, but I did send subtle messages that he should sleep on his own, and he did. Now he's 35 months, and everything in his world is "all myself" and "Me not need you Mom". Why should I be surprised? That's what I taught him. That's what my parents taught me. I do think he feels (or at least felt, for a good bit of his infancy) abandoned, and I also think that made jealousy issues with DD much harder for him to handle...... why is she all over his Mom all the time?

I learned a lot about newborn's true needs and their early stages when pregnant with DD, and have been trying to backtrack and reconnect with DS. I think some of it has taken hold (he now likes to cuddle to sleep, and likes to be carried sometimes), but in some ways he is more independent and acts like he is 5 or so, and it sort of breaks my heart. 

I let DD cosleep pretty much full time until 12 weeks. I say "let" because DH isn't a fan of baby-in-the-bed for marital purposes. It works fine for me, we now have a casual co-sleeping agreement - I cuddle/nurse DD to sleep around 8, lay with her til around 10, nurse her again and lay her in her bed. If she wakes, he brings her into bed with us and she stays there. If she doesn't, she just sleeps in her bed. Her bed is in our room. Overall, this arrangement has really not led to any more or less sleep than we got when DS was a baby........ but I am getting a lot more fulfillment as a parent. My DD is so unbelievably happy to see me when she wakes.. she doesn't even fuss or cry when she wakes, she just starts laughing and reaching for me. She is also a much happier, more dependent baby overall. Especially agree with the comment about the need for physical touch - sometimes when DD wakes a little all she needs is a hand to hold.. she'll pull it close to her and hold on til she's really out.

 It's so hard when your sleep-deprived but you have to keep in mind that all of this will be gone before you know what happened. I still remember my DS football-sized and now he does everything on his own - eating, pottying, sleeping, dressing. I am trying to enjoy every moment of DD and have adopted a "let them be little!" state of mind for our home... and we are ALL resting better and happier all around. With both of my kids, who obviously learned their sleep patterns very differently, the sleep-deprivation wore off around 12 weeks - which is also when I returned to work. You may (or may not) have to work the rest of your life - you will have a chance to sleep the rest of your life - but your little babe will never be 8 weeks (or 10 weeks or 4 months, etc) ever again. You just get this one little time with him.. don't let it be a power struggle.

Originally Posted by P.J. 

Word!

I used to worry about nursing my baby to sleep, but then I realized it is what works for him, so don't mess with it! Yes, it makes it harder for anyone else to put him to sleep, but I try to remind myself this is such a short time in his life and before I know it he'll be a big boy and not need me as much anymore.

Most newborns need the security of physical contact to fall asleep. I think this idea that a baby should be put down sleepy but awake and be able to fall asleep on their own is nonsense. It's part of this whole belief system that has people thinking we need to train independence in small babies. Well, babies are not meant to be independent, and that's okay! In my observations, the babies who are trained to be more independent (by sleeping alone from an early age, made to fall asleep alone and/or sleep trained, weaned before one year, etc.) are the ones who come up with behavior problems or personality issues sooner rather than later. They feel abandoned, IMO. Babies are not meant to be independent. Remember: this time will go by so so fast, and you will never be this close to your child again. Savor it while it lasts! I promise, one day your child will fall asleep on his own!

[dejagerw]

Originally Posted by anjsmama 

   ITA, unfortunately. I started "shushing" DS at 8 weeks and he STTN by 12 weeks. He was also 3 weeks early (and 4 lb 11 oz). There are about a million things I didn't know then that I know now. I thought it was awesome that my baby slept 12 hours a night (and in some ways, it was) but if I could go back I'd let him sleep on my belly and in my room and pick him up when he fussed. I never allowed him to cry, but I did send subtle messages that he should sleep on his own, and he did. Now he's 35 months, and everything in his world is "all myself" and "Me not need you Mom". Why should I be surprised? That's what I taught him. That's what my parents taught me. I do think he feels (or at least felt, for a good bit of his infancy) abandoned, and I also think that made jealousy issues with DD much harder for him to handle...... why is she all over his Mom all the time?

I learned a lot about newborn's true needs and their early stages when pregnant with DD, and have been trying to backtrack and reconnect with DS. I think some of it has taken hold (he now likes to cuddle to sleep, and likes to be carried sometimes), but in some ways he is more independent and acts like he is 5 or so, and it sort of breaks my heart. 

I let DD cosleep pretty much full time until 12 weeks. I say "let" because DH isn't a fan of baby-in-the-bed for marital purposes. It works fine for me, we now have a casual co-sleeping agreement - I cuddle/nurse DD to sleep around 8, lay with her til around 10, nurse her again and lay her in her bed. If she wakes, he brings her into bed with us and she stays there. If she doesn't, she just sleeps in her bed. Her bed is in our room. Overall, this arrangement has really not led to any more or less sleep than we got when DS was a baby........ but I am getting a lot more fulfillment as a parent. My DD is so unbelievably happy to see me when she wakes.. she doesn't even fuss or cry when she wakes, she just starts laughing and reaching for me. She is also a much happier, more dependent baby overall. Especially agree with the comment about the need for physical touch - sometimes when DD wakes a little all she needs is a hand to hold.. she'll pull it close to her and hold on til she's really out.

 It's so hard when your sleep-deprived but you have to keep in mind that all of this will be gone before you know what happened. I still remember my DS football-sized and now he does everything on his own - eating, pottying, sleeping, dressing. I am trying to enjoy every moment of DD and have adopted a "let them be little!" state of mind for our home... and we are ALL resting better and happier all around. With both of my kids, who obviously learned their sleep patterns very differently, the sleep-deprivation wore off around 12 weeks - which is also when I returned to work. You may (or may not) have to work the rest of your life - you will have a chance to sleep the rest of your life - but your little babe will never be 8 weeks (or 10 weeks or 4 months, etc) ever again. You just get this one little time with him.. don't let it be a power struggle.

I wouldn't worry too much about how your DS is different and more independent than DD. IMO, it doesn't really have as much to do with you shushing him to sleep as it does with their inborn temperments. If he needed more than shushing, he would have let you know it (by crying and crying until he got what he wanted) For me, DS1 was so high needs, he needed constant contact, constant night nursing. I could never separate myself from him day or night. He woke up constantly. DS2, he has always been more independent, easy going, and much better sleeper. He never ever nursed to sleep. I'd try, but he wouldn't comfort nurse. He'd nurse, and then he'd be done and preferred rocking. He sleeps so much better than DS1 ever did. But it's nothing I've done different, it's all him. It really makes me see that we don't create these sleep crutches, some babies just need more help to sleep than others, and it's nothing we did "wrong" to cause this. Whatever your baby needs, give that to them. If they need more, give more. If they need less help going to sleep, don't sweat it, and count your blessings. 

[Ola_]

I'm at the early end of our parenting journey still but IMO don't stress about it too much.  DD is 4.5 months old and she slept on my chest all night and for all daytime naps till at least 2 months old.  The only reason we slowly transitioned to her sleeping beside me was because as she got heavier, it was getting harder for me to breathe with her sleeping on me, lol.  That allowed me to respond to her sooner when she woke and fussed or was hungry - I would feel her stirring around before she ever got to the crying and upset stage.  I can't even tell you how many relatives exclaimed that we were spoiling her and she'd never sleep on her own.  I swear every time we saw them they'd ask if we put her in her crib yet - my answer: yes, probably once a day, usually when I have to brush my teeth or get dressed (they meant to sleep overnight, lol).

At this point she is happy to sleep at night on the bed beside me or in her crib alone, so it didn't create any bad associations for her.  Not sure what the future will bring but I suspect, like with a lot of other things, it has more to do with your baby's temperament and such than what we are doing to "train" them.  Some of us just get lucky, and some don't.

[BabySmurf]

babies need what they need to fall asleep.  we don't get to choose whether or not we have a high needs baby or an "easy" baby.  you can either make the most of what you have and enjoy your baby's need for closeness or try to force independence, which will cause tears and frustration on both sides, and ultimately make this very special time less enjoyable. 

something i read on these boards that i really do feel is true - all of those sleep training books just give us something to do while we wait for our LO become developmentally ready.  which ever method we were using at the time is toted as the "miracle" method, even though it was likely that time was what helped our LO's sleep. 

I was never able to put DS down in his bassinet - his startle reflex would wake him every time (even swaddled).  as soon as he realized that i wasn't there, he would wake up and cry.  i called him my "obligate chest sleeper".  at some point he started rolling away from me after falling asleep, and i really miss those cuddles! he goes through phases where he needs to nurse to sleep and phases where he wants to rock, occasionally he gets fed up with my parenting him to sleep and rolls away and goes to sleep on his own. 

remember too that you are his mother, and he has a different set of expectations from you.  if you are near by he will be able to smell you and crave your comfort - and you should give him that.  if you are worried about nap times at day care, remember that he will have a whole new set of associations there.  i think that you should continue your routine, but if it doesn't work, don't try to fight it.  do what does work.  and don't worry about creating "bad associations".  the association is only bad if you try to take away something they need before they are ready....and ready is going to depend on your particular child's temperment and developmental timeline. 

IMO 8 weeks is way too young to expect a baby to fall asleep on their own. 

[WifeofAnt]

My son wasn't high needs but we had our moments.  There was a time when I had to jump when he got the least bit upset in his swing or he'd associate the swing with crying and I'd have to hide it for a week or more.  If I tried to use it again before he forgot, he would screech from the moment he touched it until I got him back out.  I don't even try to use his pack n play to get him to sleep in it because of that.  I just expected I'd have to put him down for every nap by nursing him down.  Around the time he turned 5.5 months old, he started pushing me away.  I got frustrated so I left him on the bed while I went to sit on the couch.  Before I knew it, he put himself to sleep!  He still doesn't do it very often (@ 7.5m) but its nice to know that even though I'm in the habit of putting him to sleep this way, he isn't stuck in only being able to fall asleep that way.  I even went shopping without him yesterday and he slept without a problem for Daddy!

[Blanca78]

Just wanted to chime in and say I also stressed about this--those sleep books and internet info can really mess with your head, especially because they don't usually specify what is developmentally appropriate. I talked to an expert at the Fussy Baby Network (google it--free telephone help with sleep, fussiness, and feeding) and she said babies aren't even capable of sleep associations until at least three months.

My 13-week-old started occasionally falling asleep on her own around 9 or 10 weeks, but it was totally accidental--like I would put her in the bouncy seat for a moment to use the bathroom and when I came out she was asleep (sigh--that only happened once). And it's happened in her crib a few times, but more often than not the "sleepy but awake" thing just doesn't work--she might drift off but wakes up again shortly and needs to be rocked.

AskMoxie.org has a great post on nursing to sleep. Kellymom also has very reassuring info on nursing to sleep and comfort nursing. Basically, if it works, what's really the harm? I try not to stress about it and when she seems amenable (i.e., is super calm and sleepy) we "practice" the sleepy but awake thing and it does seem to be getting easier (i.e., a lot of times I can simply pat rather than rock her to sleep now, but she has to be almost catatonic). I figure it's something that can evolve as she gets older, but even if it doesn't, I find it hard to believe that she won't outgrow needing to be nursed or rocked eventually, probably sooner than I might think.

Hang in there--it is so hard sometimes not to be terrified that you're doing everything wrong! But you're not. As long as it works for your family, it's not wrong.

[ContentMama]

Personally, with ds at 11 months now and having very strong sleep associations, I would have been a bit more conscious of it early on. I really hadn't a clue and just did what worked. 8 weeks may be a bit early though. I mainly held/nursed/attached the two of us for the first 3 months, stayed in bed for 12 hours nursing and sleeping, very rarely even put him down. I think I would have at least tried to put him down sometimes in that "drowsy but awake" state because at this point it's extremely difficult. Our experience now is that ds is up every 1.5 hours, needing to be walked for 15-20 minutes (sometimes more!) back to sleep. He won't nurse down and sometimes will stay up for 1-2 hours in the middle of the night. And we cosleep too or did up until I felt that it was keeping him up. At 11 months, I think this is a bit much and due to the sleep associations that I wasn't very informed about.

I appreciate our evolutionary history and respecting the attachment that us humans need. I also appreciate the fact that we no longer live in tribal situations where there are other adults to take over. Sometimes I wonder if temperaments have changed as well making babies less calm. Sooo, it's just the 2 of us and there is really only so much 1 person can do. I am of the mind that when mom's mental health is suffering it is no good for baby! So if you can gently create less intensive sleep associations at an early age, more power to you! This isn't about forcing or crying or any of that but exposing baby to another way to go to sleep.

[azzeps]

Have you looked at the book, No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley?  She has a whole section in there on things to do with your under-4-month-old baby that help with developing good sleep habits.  I remember picking up that book with my DD when we really started having difficulties at about 9 months old, and reading that part and thinking, "dang, maybe if I had started earlier with some of this stuff, we'd be better off!!!"  Can't remember what any of that stuff is, but check the book out.  I'm also reading Good Night, Sleep Tight by Kim West.  She has a chapter on what to do in the early weeks.  I'm taking it all with a grain of salt, though.  Trying not to get to worked up about it, but also thinking maybe it couldn't hurt to gently help this new baby sleep better than our daughter.  Because she is now nearly 3.5 and we are still having sleep issues.  I just figure there's got to be some middle ground between what we experienced with her, and what our mainstream friends did - CIO with babies that slept all night right away, and now kids they lock in their rooms.  Sigh.  It's so hard when you're operating on so little sleep.  Best of luck to you.

[ashleyc]

Originally Posted by azzeps 

Have you looked at the book, No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley?  She has a whole section in there on things to do with your under-4-month-old baby that help with developing good sleep habits.  I remember picking up that book with my DD when we really started having difficulties at about 9 months old, and reading that part and thinking, "dang, maybe if I had started earlier with some of this stuff, we'd be better off!!!"  Can't remember what any of that stuff is, but check the book out.  I'm also reading Good Night, Sleep Tight by Kim West.  She has a chapter on what to do in the early weeks.  I'm taking it all with a grain of salt, though.  Trying not to get to worked up about it, but also thinking maybe it couldn't hurt to gently help this new baby sleep better than our daughter.  Because she is now nearly 3.5 and we are still having sleep issues.  I just figure there's got to be some middle ground between what we experienced with her, and what our mainstream friends did - CIO with babies that slept all night right away, and now kids they lock in their rooms.  Sigh.  It's so hard when you're operating on so little sleep.  Best of luck to you.

These are actually the two books I have which I have really liked, and I have been trying to use some of the gentle techniques that they recommend for babies younger than 4 months.  I did totally wind myself up about it not going just like they say it should (I know, totally ridiculous, but when you're sleep deprived, you're desperate!)  I was at the Drs yesterday and she said that my LO does have a high needs temperment and that I should do what I can but not stress about sleep associations and all that too much.  Just need to get him sleep now and we can tackle some of those things later.  I'm also just trying to change my mentality about it all.  I totally understand the frustration of trying to find that middle ground that works for us, especially when so many of my friends seem to have had "easy" babies that went down for naps and the whole night without any problem!

[JudiAU]

He is 8 weeks old, was three weeks premature, and has gas and some milk reflux. I would suggest getting him to sleep anyway he likes and not worry about sleep associations. Nursing to sleep is an easy thing for most babies; take advantage of it.

[Devaskyla]

Just checking out this forum since I'm expecting again & came across this thread. I have 3 kids, 10 6 & 2. I nursed all of them to sleep every night, every nap when they were babies. When they were ready they gradually started falling asleep without me (between 2 & 3). My youngest is still in the process.

If you're worried your baby won't be able to sleep with a care provider when you're back at work, it might take a day or 2 but babies learn pretty quickly that things are different with different people.

It goes so fast. It doesn't FEEL like it when you're in the day to day grind of it, but it really does. I don't know where the time has gone with older kids. I could swear they were just babies. Your baby will learn to go to sleep without you soon enough (although it might feel like forever at the time) and then you'll miss it when it's gone.