ASD and negativity

[Plummeting]

I've read a little about how kids with Asperger's can become very negative. Does anyone have any experience or could you please give me any advice? My 7yo dd literally has me at the point of tears several times a week. I just can't deal with the constant negativity. For instance, the other day we were walking to a nearby playground. It's been very hot out, but we left early to avoid the heat as best we could; it was still hot, though. About 1/3 of the way there she started whining about wanting to go home and I told her that was no problem and we could go, but she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about and kept walking. A few minutes later she was still going on about it, and said, "Why can't we go home?" I stopped the baby's stroller, and said, "We can. Let's go back. It is pretty hot," to which she replied (VERY LOUDLY), "WHY? I don't want to go home!" denying she'd ever said that. We got to the park and it was more of the same, ending with her hitting me and us leaving because of that.

Today we have a trip planned to some local caves. It'll be cool inside; it's perfect for this weather. Last night she went on and on about how excited she was. This morning she's crabby, asking why she "has" to go, saying she hates how I always make her do things she doesn't want to do, whining about how she doesn't want to go to a "stupid cave" anyway.

She disagrees with almost everything I say. She constantly talks about how everything everyone does is stupid. She hates every idea anyone has, unless it's going to the pool or watching tv. She's just so incredibly unpleasant to be around. There, I said it. I don't like to be around my kid because it's like being slowly beaten down, all day, every day, day after day after day. I love her, but I can't stand the constant barrage of negativity. I don't even care if she wants to be crabby and just keeps it to herself, but listening to her go on and on and on about how everything in the whole world is a bad idea and everyone in the whole world is stupid, dumb, or an idiot gets incredibly depressing. The psychologist said she does not meet the criteria for a mood disorder, but that this is just related to the Asperger's. I don't really care what it is. It has to stop. HELP!

[Village Mama]

This is definitely one of the hugest part of AS that affects our family. I don't have any suggestions at all other than prepping and prompting ahead of time if possible. I love that the internet has photos of lots of the places that we may want to go. I will show them a week or a day ahead of time.... sometimes they get the negativity or anxiety over ahead of time and will warm up a bit to the idea. We NEVER have any outing where everyone is happy ( two with AS) and it is just a fact of life for us. It really can be depressing sometimes as you try to provide love and opportunity and fun places to go, and the feedback is always negative. I really have a hard time with the aftermath as well, when I feel completely defeated and exausted and everyone else is totally oblivious to the stress they caused and are back to " normal " with no aknowledgement  or  closure of what went down! Funny enough, I think my dad is possibly somewhere on the spectrum and he is EXACTLY the same way. I thought I finally escaped the constant negativity when I moved away from home!

Does it make you feel any different at all to know that she can't really help it and that anxiety may play a large part? I found that it made it a little bit easier and helped me detach from taking it personally( i am not nearly successful all of the time!) I do really try to make rules  around the negative wording and name calling for the boys... it is still completely evident in their actions, but they are still able to learn to tone down the actual wording so that people aren't offended or their feelings are spared a little bit. This took work, but takes the edge off a bit!

[Village Mama]

It is the worst when they have conflicting emotions inside , like being excited and anxious, or uncomfortable and sensory overloaded.... still wanting to do the thing, but rejecting it all in the same breath. poor kiddos! So conflicted with no idea what to do in the situation!

[RJ11]

Now that I've learned about AS I know that my mother clearly has it. I too have been trying to escape her negativity and complaining my whole life - Now my son is the same way! It drives me insane!!!! Some days I feel like I am being punished. Yesterday I broke down sobbing in front of him because I couldn't take it anymore. =(

[EarthRootsStarSoul]

Just a thought (from someone on the spectrum) - it might be due to a person having a hard time dealing with the fact that the outside world is different from the world they have in their head.  They find all the imperfections in the real world that are 'wrong' from the perfectionist world inside.  I'd say look into treatments for perfectionism. 

For an autistic person, the inside world is far more real than the outside world.  It's hard to ride a horse because you have to follow external sensations.  It's hard to surf because you have to ride the wave that's given.  It's hard to talk, because you have to follow an external passing of time and measure out your words into this external movement of time that you can't control and never stops. 

[Plummeting]

Thank you all for replying. I guess the reason it's hard for me to deal with is that part of me still doesn't believe this dx. I'm sure that's stupid, because I've talked about it a lot, I've told some people about it, etc., but somehow I keep thinking this is not real and I just suck at parenting and she's just crabby. I feel terrible for saying I don't want to be around her. That's not the way I feel all the time. I was just having a really, really bad morning and was definitely feeling that way this morning. Plus, we've been under a lot of stress due to a move and my husband is away, so there is no one to relieve me for any significant time, right when her negativity is at its worst (presumably due to anxiety from the upheaval). I do feel bad for her and I try to help as best I can, but when everything I do is met with...just...a terrible attitude, it becomes so overwhelming. There are definitely times I feel like I really don't want to be around her, but it's not all or even most of the time. It still feels terrible to feel that way EVER, though.

I really need to work on not taking it personally, but that's really hard when so much of it is directed at me. Still, I'll have to do better. I also need to work on being more understanding. I guess I needed to hear it from others that their kids with an ASD do it, too. Reading about it is one thing, but really hearing other people say they're experiencing the same helps me be a little more accepting. It's strange because I wouldn't say I'm in denial. Like I said, I've talked about it, I've posted about it, etc., but I guess I am because I keep thinking that surely they've made some kind of mistake, that these things she does have to be for some other reason. Anyway, hearing other people say they have experience with the negativity does make the dx more real to me, because as in Village Mama's family, the negativity is the thing that causes the most problems for our family. It's so draining.

Thanks again!

[juicylucy]

Originally Posted by Plummeting 

'For instance, the other day we were walking to a nearby playground. It's been very hot out, but we left early to avoid the heat as best we could; it was still hot, though. About 1/3 of the way there she started whining about wanting to go home and I told her that was no problem and we could go, but she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about and kept walking. A few minutes later she was still going on about it, and said, "Why can't we go home?" I stopped the baby's stroller, and said, "We can. Let's go back. It is pretty hot," to which she replied (VERY LOUDLY), "WHY? I don't want to go home!" denying she'd ever said that. '

Oh my, this is my 10 yr old Aspergian son exactly! He does the contrary thing constantly and has done since he was 4 years old. For example, "Let's go to the zoo." "No, I don't want to go to the zoo." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "Okay, we won't go to the zoo." "It's not fair! I want to go to the zoo!!"

Psychological warfare ;) I know how frustrating it is. It's interesting that you were told it was a typical ASD thing. I always wondered if it was that or just a particularly annoying aspect of my son's personality ;) I usually try and have fun with it when he does it, though often it isn't possible and he and I both end up getting more wound up.

[PikkuMyy]

I definitely see it in some of my students with ASD. For one of them, it's very hard for him to not use extreme adverbs like "always" or "never". And then it seems like he really feels as if it is "always" or "never". As in, "I never get a turn" when he had one two minutes before and is about to get another one. Or "you always give me hard work" when it's one page out of 5 that is challenging. Or "I can never finish this" when he only has one more bite.

We work hard with him on using better language like "This work is challenging. Can you help me?" which really helps his emotions as well. Sometimes, I see that the words my students use have a direct impact on their actual emotional experience. Get them to change the way they frame it verbally, and suddenly they can handle it emotionally.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Plummeting 

'For instance, the other day we were walking to a nearby playground. It's been very hot out, but we left early to avoid the heat as best we could; it was still hot, though. About 1/3 of the way there she started whining about wanting to go home and I told her that was no problem and we could go, but she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about and kept walking. A few minutes later she was still going on about it, and said, "Why can't we go home?" I stopped the baby's stroller, and said, "We can. Let's go back. It is pretty hot," to which she replied (VERY LOUDLY), "WHY? I don't want to go home!" denying she'd ever said that. '

Originally Posted by juicylucy 

Oh my, this is my 10 yr old Aspergian son exactly! He does the contrary thing constantly and has done since he was 4 years old. For example, "Let's go to the zoo." "No, I don't want to go to the zoo." "Are you sure?" "Yes." "Okay, we won't go to the zoo." "It's not fair! I want to go to the zoo!!"

Psychological warfare ;) I know how frustrating it is. It's interesting that you were told it was a typical ASD thing. I always wondered if it was that or just a particularly annoying aspect of my son's personality ;) I usually try and have fun with it when he does it, though often it isn't possible and he and I both end up getting more wound up.

  My mom used to call me "contrary" .

I often have ds repeat back to me what I have said; 70% of the time he did not 'take in' the information at all, and 5% of the time he gets the message wrong.

For situations like those mentioned, we sit him down and go over the options, what he wants, and what it means to do that.

For the constant complaining, I've said that "I know that it can make you feel a little better to keep saying what is bothering you, but it makes my head hurt ; I hear that you feel X, but I need you to stop repeating it."  Now that ds is a little older and enjoys having quiet -- but has little sister who doesn't know the meaning of the word -- he understands what I meant.
 

[FarmerBeth]

When DS was in therapy for anxiety, one of the techniques used was to put the worry in the worry box for until a specified time.  We now extend the idea for obsessive negative thoughts (in his case he has just as many obsessive positive ones, but they aren't nearly as annoying).  We say "OK, we get idea (X), now that you're aware of our opinion we don't want to discuss this again until(X) time when we can revisit this.  This works especially well with rigid ideas like "People who cut trees for a living should go to jail" (we live in a region where forestry is the primary industry, so very challenging) "The whole world is dying because people are driving cars instead of riding horses", etc, etc.  We stay very strict on it, with consequences (usually small increments of computer gaming time).  In the past I would have felt like this was too coercive, but at this point this is the only thing that works so we don't go crazy.

[Linda on the move]

We make efforts toward being positive as a family. Every night at dinner, each member must say one thing they are grateful for. For a while, we kept a "book of positive aspects."  Different things in our life had a page, and we wrote all the positive traits of that thing on it's page. There was a page for the dog, our favorite pizza place, etc.

There is a book about thinking positive for kids called "Sara, Book 1: The Foreverness of Friends of a Feather" by Esther and Jerry Hicks. It's VERY new age, and I recommend reading it first to make sure you are OK with the content. But it helped both my kids understand why and how to control their thoughts.

I'm not sure that everything listed in the first post was negativity, though. Some of it could have been communication problems, sensory issues, or anxiety. My DD has said that she doesn't really think in English, and she's always translating. It's weird to her that the words we use are how most of us think. I think that sometimes it's helpful to think of our autistic kids as being people who haven't really mastered the language yet. Focusing on non-violent communication and really hearing what she is trying to say right now is helpful for me.

[FarmerBeth]

Linda on the Move, that is a really sweet idea saying one thing you are grateful for at dinner.  What a nice idea for learning the value of gratitude for any family!

[RiverTam]

DS1 does this.  It is often because he has conflicting feelings about a situation. To use OP's example, he might be happy about going to the park, but really uncomfortable on the walk because it's hot and sticky.  The discomfort from the walk then flows over into how he feels about everything else and he's negative about all of it. It can move on from there to wreck he rest of the day.

We use Rational Emotive Therapy techniques to address this by talking through the emotions and beliefs that are starting the downward spiral.  You can use an "ABCDE" device to remember the technique. 1) We identify the Activating event. (Trigger). 2) We identify the irrational Belief. 3) We identify the Consequences of the irrational belief. 4) We Dispute the irrational belief. 5) We substitute  more Effective thinking.  

In your example: 1)  "Wow, it's really out hot and I'm uncomfortable. I think you're uncomfortable, too, and it's making you crabby." 2) "You are feeling unhappy and uncomfortable and that is making you think you don't want to go to the park or doing anything. You're hating everything right now because the heat is making you feel bad." 3) "You're really crabby right now and hating everything. But if you crab at everyone and go home, you won't get to go to the park and everyone is going to be upset and disappointed." 4) "It is really hot out here and walking is unpleasant, but that doesn't mean the park won't be fun." 5) "This walk is unpleasant, but the park will be fun when we get there. We can sit in the shade to cool off and get a drink of water before we play. We're tough enough and big enough that we can put up with an unpleasant walk to get to the park. The park is awesome. It's worth it."

We do that process a lot. DS1 is learning to do it for himself. 

We also work on positive talk. Ie. "Don't tell me what you hate. Tell me what you like. I want to hear about what makes you happy."

We also have a "No whining" saying. Ie. "You get what you get and no whining."  I've heard my kids repeat this to each other. 

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by RiverTam 
We use Rational Emotive Therapy techniques to address this by talking through the emotions and beliefs that are starting the downward spiral.  You can use an "ABCDE" device to remember the technique. 1) We identify the Activating event. (Trigger). 2) We identify the irrational Belief. 3) We identify the Consequences of the irrational belief. 4) We Dispute the irrational belief. 5) We substitute  more Effective thinking.  
We also work on positive talk. Ie. "Don't tell me what you hate. Tell me what you like. I want to hear about what makes you happy."

We also have a "No whining" saying. Ie. "You get what you get and no whining."  I've heard my kids repeat this to each other. 

In Kindergarten ds was taught "You get what you get and you don't throw a fit." I've heard my children repeat it to each other as well.

[Plummeting]

A few of you are right, that my examples might very well not be just negativity, but being conflicted or anxious. It's the name-calling and spending all day telling me everything I say is wrong and everything everyone does is stupid or means that they are stupid that I can only really call negative. There is some underlying reason for it, I know, but it's negative and hurtful.

I thought about a gratitude journal a while back. Then I read Nurture Shock, which touched on a study showing that sort of thing actually has a negative influence on kids, who find that they are mostly powerless, and everything they're grateful for is provided by parents. Something along those lines. But anyway, that's why I didn't do it.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Plummeting 

There is some underlying reason for it, I know, but it's negative and hurtful.

I thought about a gratitude journal a while back. Then I read Nurture Shock, which touched on a study showing that sort of thing actually has a negative influence on kids, who find that they are mostly powerless, and everything they're grateful for is provided by parents. Something along those lines. But anyway, that's why I didn't do it.

Exactly how hurt you get by your SN kid's behavior is totally up to you. Totally. Seven is a lot easier than what is to come (not trying to be negative) but how big this problem is for you is *partly* because of how you let it push your buttons. Her extreme difficulty in making peace with being in the world really doesn't have anything to do with you. You don't have to be hurt by it.

Second, I haven't read Nurture Shock. Over the years, my kids have found many, many things to be grateful for that weren't from me, and they aren't mostly powerless.  Even if you feel that actively teaching your children gratitude isn't the right path for you, you can still choose to actively practice gratitude yourself, and your children will learn from your example.

I think that learning to notice all the little wonderful things around us everyday is the secret to happiness, and that teaching our children, even our SN children, to do this is one of the things we can give them that will help them have a wonderful life. My kids have been grateful for everything from a specific teacher at school to the smell after the rain. The notion that children are only grateful for things that their parent buy them is simply not my experience.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Second, I haven't read Nurture Shock. Over the years, my kids have found many, many things to be grateful for that weren't from me, and they aren't mostly powerless.  Even if you feel that actively teaching your children gratitude isn't the right path for you, you can still choose to actively practice gratitude yourself, and your children will learn from your example.

I think that learning to notice all the little wonderful things around us everyday is the secret to happiness, and that teaching our children, even our SN children, to do this is one of the things we can give them that will help them have a wonderful life. My kids have been grateful for everything from a specific teacher at school to the smell after the rain. The notion that children are only grateful for things that their parent buy them is simply not my experience.

I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that my daughter's behavior stems from my failure to teach/discipline/model certain behaviors (as half the people in my family do), but when you tell me how she'd learn from my example if I'd practice gratitude myself, that's what it feels like, so forgive me if I sound a little defensive. I do actively practice gratitude myself, and I do actively teach gratitude. The fact that I chose not do it in one certain way, at one certain time, does not mean I walk around acting like an ungrateful jerk and never discuss these things with my daughter. I have five children's books on the subject of gratitude alone. :) She also belches loudly at the dinner table when we have company and head butts us when she wants to show affection. I can assure you I model appropriate behaviors for those situations, also, but she hasn't learned from my example yet.

If you felt I was criticizing your methods, then I apologize for giving that impression, but it was not my intention. I was merely stating the reason that I had at one time chosen not to keep a gratitude journal. We constantly discuss the wonders of life around us, both large and small, even if most days it is a one-sided conversation because she is too upset to notice or care.

Edited by Plummeting - 7/24/11 at 9:56am

[karne]

I find the idea of gratitude with my kids to be a difficult one, and I think it is primarily a matter of perspective that they don't have because they haven't really lived much of their lives yet.  My own gratitude for different things is partly based on my perspective-I know what I have, and experience, and I know what I don't have and how different my experiences could be.  It's difficult to put into words, but my children's lives are what they are, in the moment.  My preteen is only just starting to look ahead (or behind), and learning to experience a moment as distinct from another moment.  Kind of difficult to explain, I guess.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by karne 

I find the idea of gratitude with my kids to be a difficult one, and I think it is primarily a matter of perspective that they don't have because they haven't really lived much of their lives yet. 

I think  that every day provides something to be grateful for. It has been tougher for for my ASD, than my NT child.

And the kind of things they come up with are different than my DH and I. He and I can sit down to dinner and just be grateful to be there -- grateful to have a family, have each other, to get to watch our children grew up, to have a home and that is a gentle respite from the world. I can't count the number of times my DH has said that he is grateful to have a family to come home to, and that I've felt grateful to have a family to cook for.

Neither of our kids are like that. They are generally grateful for immediate things -- something funny that was said, or something interesting to do. For several months, my ASD dd was grateful for Bill Gates every night at dinner.    The invention of the microcomputer was the only thing she was happy about on the entire planet.

With an ASD kiddo, it might help to start with their current special interest, and help them find something positive about their interest to share with the family at dinner time. This is a great chance to let them talk for a minute, while teaching them to take turns in a conversation, and to really listen to them for a minute, and to be happy that they have their special interest -- that with the myriad of difficulties and confusions that each day brings, they have something they love and enjoy that makes them happy.

[DaughterOfKali]

My son is also quite negative.  Whenever I come up against a behavior that I haven't been able to change/work with (etc), I ask his clinical neuropsych for advice/ideas.

One thing that I have found that works for my son is that when he starts in with the major negativity, I bring up something that he finds comfort in or that he finds funny.  Kids on the spectrum tend to get 'stuck' doing/saying the same things over and over again.  I find that I sometimes need to 'unstick' him.  It's not easy and it's a constant battle.  You have to have a bunch of comfort or comical things in the back of your mind to use at a moments notice.  Plus, you need to find new ones as using the same comfort thoughts too many times loses it's effectiveness. 

I once showed my son a photo of fluffy baby owls. They were adorable... Like puffballs with feet.  Every once in a while, I start chatting with my son about them (in a different scenario) when his behavior really starts to slide.  If that one doesn't work, I move on to the next one (funny british animal voiceovers on youtube.)

I'm happy to say that usually breaks his negativity streak.  At least, until the next one.