Verging on despair and about to give up GD-- Help? (Very long) - Page 2

[stik]

Do you do that with your own kids?

For children who are having serious behavior problems, the assumption that they know how to behave appropriately and can choose to do so at will is often problematic.

Further, once a child has lost all privileges for the day, what are you going to do if he keeps misbehaving?

In my experience with oppositional children, the point where all the privileges are gone is a point of serious disinhibition.

[joensally]

OP, you might find some information in the book Smart but Scattered.  It addresses executive function (Initiating action, flexible thinking, sustaining attention, organization, planning, working memory, self-awareness, regulating emotions).  It's written for parents, and provides a way to assess where your child is struggling (ie provides examples of age norms), and then strategies to increase those skills.

I also woudn't suggest a prison-like behaviourist strategy which assumes a child has a greater level of choice over their behaviour than they in fact do.  Children need to be scaffolded into building these skills over time.

[karne]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

Can you try it a different way?

ANything above basic food and shelter is optional. IOW you dont have to provide anything not considered an necessity, They are earned.

Start him off with a bed, his luvie (comfort toy) and thats it, No TV, video games, no toys, nothing else. Healthy, well balanced meals, no ice cream or poscicles. Those are earrned. Basic back yard play, parks are earned.

Everything is earned based on positive interactions. That way you are never punishing for bad behaviour but rewarding good behaviour. Its a different way of getting the brain to think.

Kids dont just get these extras for existing. I know too many kids who think they deserve extras b/c they were born. Extras are just that. Extra. Then we spend too much time on implementing negative consequences instead of rewarding good behaviours.

IF he defys you, then he gets no extras that day. Back to basics.

He's 6.  This is overly harsh and punative, IMO.

Also, the part I bolded in your quote is something I have a bad reaction to reading.  There are certainly times when kids are earning their "extras" (my dd earns her cell phone, for example).  But, yeah, in our family, extras sometimes happen just for the fact that  I'm glad my kids exist.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by karne 
.  There are certainly times when kids are earning their "extras" (my dd earns her cell phone, for example).  But, yeah, in our family, extras sometimes happen just for the fact that  I'm glad my kids exist.

yes, I also think it shuts the door on figuring out what the problem actually is.

Thinking about my own SN child, whose issues are different than the OPer's child, and whose behavior is determined in part by sensory issues and an anxiety disorder (but has at time looked like defiance) I can't imagine the kind of extreme emotional problems we would be dealing with now if, in addition to everything else, we had ever given her the message that she wasn't completely and totally loved exactly the way she is (even before we could understand the way she is)

I'm all for consistency. I'm fine with taking things away when they are mis-used, and I think short time outs (1 minute for every year of life) can help a child re-center.

But what you are advocating is worse than I treat my dog. I give my dog treats just because I'm glad he exist.

We are talking about a small child who needs help learning self control. He's just a little boy.

[Piglet68]

I'm replying to your post because I found myself in a very similar position recently. Having finally realized that DS has Asperger's or maybe even autism (fairly high functioning) I went out looking for advice and came across a lot of suggestions and methods that simply went contrary to my beliefs about parenting. It's more than just that, however, because I believe it's about human rights and kids' rights and that just because a child is special needs doesn't mean he needs to be treated as less deserving of respect and support than any other child. Taking the one thing in life that gives my son so much pleasure and using that as a weapon to force him to act in ways that I happen to think are "better" does not sit well with me one bit. And frankly, such tactics have always made things worse for us. My kids need to see me as someone they can trust to understand what they need, help and support them in their learning of appropriate behaviours, etc. If I become the enemy I've lost that trust, and that price is too high for me.

I can tell you that in my searching I have found others who feel the same way I/you do. The "consequences", which are just punishments played up in less harsh-sounding words, are control. Period. And they are control in order to make a child behave in a way that they either can't do or have reasons for not wanting to do. My belief is to go deeper than the behaviour and find the root causes, otherwise you are just putting bandaids over wounds that are still festering below. Extinguishing one behaviour simply means the root cause will find expression in other ways that may not be any better for the child, even if they make life easier for the adults who have to deal with them. 

My son sounds very much like yours. He isn't interesting in pleasing others just for the sake of doing so, but he's also SIX and I'm reminded constantly that this is still a very young age. And I know in many ways he is not emotionally at the same point he is in actual age, so I try to cut him more slack. I don't have all the answers, but I do think it's important to stick with what you believe in. At the very least, if you are not totally on board with it then you are being in-authentic and I think most kids can smell that a mile away. 

My child is not in school, so I don't have that pressure on me. And that might make things easier for me than for you. But I encourage you not to give up on your beliefs. There are people out there who manage their children successfully without having to resort to coercion and control. There are many experienced parents of ADHD, ASD, spectrum-y kids who find solutions that work for their kids and fit within their belief system about how children should be treated. If this school doesn't work for you there are other options (even if it's just another public school), and maybe getting him kicked out by not doing what the counsellor wants is going to be how that happens and what ultimately opens other doors for you. I strongly believe that you should never let "experts" tell you to parent in a way that feels totally wrong to you. GD is so unknown by so much of mainstream society that I find they simply don't even question the behaviouralist approach. Others have. You can PM me if you want some links to these communities. 

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Amen to everything Piglet says.

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

Can you try it a different way?

ANything above basic food and shelter is optional. IOW you dont have to provide anything not considered an necessity, They are earned.

Start him off with a bed, his luvie (comfort toy) and thats it, No TV, video games, no toys, nothing else. Healthy, well balanced meals, no ice cream or poscicles. Those are earrned. Basic back yard play, parks are earned.

Everything is earned based on positive interactions. That way you are never punishing for bad behaviour but rewarding good behaviour. Its a different way of getting the brain to think.

Kids dont just get these extras for existing. I know too many kids who think they deserve extras b/c they were born. Extras are just that. Extra. Then we spend too much time on implementing negative consequences instead of rewarding good behaviours.

IF he defys you, then he gets no extras that day. Back to basics.

If a child is capable of understanding this- it works well (for some kids.)  Most kids aren't at this point by six though.  

It sound like this is a kid who has seen a  strained marriage and is witnessing a contentious divorce.  I don't think he's going to be able to focus on all the stuff he needs to do within himself until those outside influences are straightened out.  As for the school- if it doesn't work this year, it's probably time o consider other options.  My oldest managed in school, but it was not the right environment for her.  She is homeschooled now and thriving- it took over six months for her to recover from the strain of trying to fit in where she just didn't. I understand that that may not be an option, but a more hands-on experiential setting may work better for this child. Multi-age classrooms may be a better fit.  

[~Alexis~]

OP, your dear little boy sounds similar to mine.  If my ds was a menu item, he'd be Early-onset Bipolar Disorder with a side of Generalized Anxiety and a morsel of Narcissism for dessert.

I recommend seeing a pediatric psychiatrist.  Maybe not the most popular course to follow for the majority of MDCers, but medication is working wonders for my ds.  It's completely repairing our relationship.

[LynnS6]

Darien, I hope you do come back. Two thoughts to add to others' ideas. First, has he seen an OT for his sensory stuff? It sounds to me like he's got some issues with self regulation, both physically and emotionally. If he can't regulate himself, he can't comply. I'm reading an interesting book on emotional regulation right now, and it's amazing how many skills require self regulation. OT can help with that, it you can try to build a good sensory diet in and out of school.

My other thought is whether he would respond to rewards. If you have to try behaviorist techniques because that's what your ex will accept, then I'd be more comfortable with rewards. I think rewards to teach new skills are fine, even if they're disputed within GD. My big concern with the punish him until there's nothing left to lose approach is that (1) what happens when he has lost it all (as others have pointed out)? (2) how can that teach him better skills for working with others?

I think you should meet with the counselor and get his explanation as to how his approach will help your son learn new skills. I'd also ask what happens if he's just not motivated by punishments.