Pushed the baby back in, what's normal/acceptable? - Page 2

[bcblondie]

Kanna I'm sorry for your loss. Maybe I'm naive but I'd like to beleive they've set some back up plans into place since you were 2. Like having another ambulance come to get me and continue transfering me. And like I said, they can do Csections on the ambulance, unless all the passengers were so hurt they couldn't, in which case, that same event could happen earlier on had I been transfering myself.

Like Jamie said earlier, I'm factoring this all in. All things considered I still feel better off at home.

Honestly I really don't mind people challenging my opinions. I welcome it really, I definitely want what's best for my baby and myself. It's the tone that put me off. Had she said. "Have you considered the road conditions for when you're due? What if there's an accident? Do you have a plan just in case?" I'd be open to that. The way you phrased things Kanna, I like that. I like being educated. Fear mongering, no.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by bcblondie 

Yeah I'm just ignoring the fear mongering. I could crash on my drive to the hospital in the intention of a normal hospital birth as well. Fact is, they can do csections in an ambulance, too. So let's not be rediculous. If I had a hospital birth my baby could be subject to say... menengitis (as my friend's baby did, and died at only 5 days old.) If you're so against homebirth, stay out of this forum.

Thanks Jamie and Kanna, for being the voice of reason. :)

Can I see a source for this?  I'm very skeptical that a c/s can be done in an ambulance as it is not a sterile environment, and EMT's are not surgeons.

[Mama2Kayla]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Can I see a source for this?  I'm very skeptical that a c/s can be done in an ambulance as it is not a sterile environment, and EMT's are not surgeons.

Seriously...a c-section in an ambulance preformed by EMT's. Are you for real??!!?? 
 

[bcblondie]

I just read it in google, don't know which site. It may or may not be correct. Life over sterility though, I'm sure. They'd cut off an arm to save your life, no? I'd risk an infection to save my baby... I'm sure it depends on the area. I'll ask my midwife.

But anyways, in countries where homebirth is the norm, infant mortality is the same or better than the US, even with the lack of emergency intervention in worst case scenarios. THat means most Csections are unecessary. With 30% of births being Csections these days,  I'm not comfortable birthing in such a rushed setting. I'm not comfortable with teh birth experiences my friends have had at my local hospitals. It's possible that I may birth at home and the baby may die. But I know that ultimately I did make the right choice for my family. If I birthed in a hospital and the baby died, I wouldn't forgive myself for going againist my gut.

[bcblondie]

And any future objections, can they please be phrased in a less condiscending way? 6 question marks and exclamation marks are unecessary. We're grown woman. That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Kanna]

Originally Posted by bcblondie 

Kanna I'm sorry for your loss. Maybe I'm naive but I'd like to beleive they've set some back up plans into place since you were 2. Like having another ambulance come to get me and continue transfering me. And like I said, they can do Csections on the ambulance, unless all the passengers were so hurt they couldn't, in which case, that same event could happen earlier on had I been transfering myself.

Like Jamie said earlier, I'm factoring this all in. All things considered I still feel better off at home.

Honestly I really don't mind people challenging my opinions. I welcome it really, I definitely want what's best for my baby and myself. It's the tone that put me off. Had she said. "Have you considered the road conditions for when you're due? What if there's an accident? Do you have a plan just in case?" I'd be open to that. The way you phrased things Kanna, I like that. I like being educated. Fear mongering, no.

Since I don't actually remember my mom, it's not that bad. And my dad remarried and the lady he married did become my "new" mom. Still, I sometimes wonder what it would have been like with my real mom.

I know that Paramedic services are a bit different in the states than they are here in Germany. It would be totally unthinkable to do a c-section in an ambulance here in Germany (no sterile field, no surgical equipment on board, no anaesthesiologist or OB available...and never mind the cramped quarters).

None of the ambulance personnel here are schooled to do that. Not the paramedics, not the EMT's and not the Emergency doctors (we've got a "meet-up" system here and as far as I know, in the US there are no emergency doctors working with ambulances at all).

Since I DID work as an EMT and still have a vivid interest in emergency medicine, and since I googled "C-section" and "Ambulance", but couldn't find any details on that, I'd be very happy and greatful if maybe you could provide a link or something?

Concerning tone, we have a saying here in Germany: "Der Ton macht die Musik" which basically means "It's the notes you hit that make the music.".

Here on the internet, it's not always easy to hit the right ones, since writing lacks stuff like body language and tone of voice (which communicate a lot of the intention the speaker has), and you get a lot of people from a lot of different communicative backgrounds (the soft spoken ones and the head-on ones).

Alenushka's comment was a bit on the short side, but from the way I read it, she was mainly dropping off a bit of information / a thought that was pertinent to your original question....but then, I come from a very "head-on" communication background.

*raises an eyebrow at Mama2Kayla*

THAT though was, even if I try to give you the benefit for doubt, TOTALLY uncalled for.

Maybe you'd like to apologize?

[Kanna]

Originally Posted by bcblondie 

....

But anyways, in countries where homebirth is the norm, infant mortality is the same or better than the US, even with the lack of emergency intervention in worst case scenarios. ....With 30% of births being Csections these days,  I'm not comfortable birthing in such a rushed setting. I'm not comfortable with the birth experiences my friends have had at my local hospitals. It's possible that I may birth at home and the baby may die. But I know that ultimately I did make the right choice for my family. If I birthed in a hospital and the baby died, I wouldn't forgive myself for going againist my gut.

Hmmm....I know I did look up a LOT of the statistics and I know of no country where homebirth is the norm (= in countries in Asia and Africa) and neonatal mortality is the same or better than the US. I'd like to go back and check though, to see if I got everything straight. Can you tell me which countries you were referring specifically?

My hospital here in Germany was very mother / child / family centristic and it was a very relaxed and laid back atmosphere. I've heard so many complaints from mothers about the atmosphere in L&D departments in the US though, that I suspect that quite a few of them are far from being as as patient friendly as mine was, so I understand your concern.

When you're giving birth, you're very vulnerable, and so yeah, I guess most moms would like to do give birth in a welcoming, caring environment where she can feel safe. And darn, that is something that should apply to homebirth AND hospital birth.

Edited: I meant neonatal mortality of course, not infant mortality *shakes head*

Edited by Kanna - 8/13/11 at 9:38am

[Alenushka]

They can't do C-Section in the ambulance. EMT take one semester of classes and pass an exam.  Their scope of practice does not include c-section. There many other reasons why doing c-section in a moving car would not be a good idea.

I also want to make a note that comparing infant mortality  as marker of OB care is wrong parameter. Infant mortality is 28 days to a year. By that time the baby is not under OB care and other thing, like parental abuse, lack of health insurance , poverty etc, influence these stats in US. You want to look at neonatal mortality rates and that shows a different picture.

There is also an interesting paper explaining why our infant mortality rate are what they are.   If you think of factors contributing to low birth babies in US (Who by the day, have the highest chance of survival in US) it is the 2 population spectrum. Low income mother who do not receive prenatal care and lifestyle counceling (chance , drugs nutrition ) and upper middle class mother who ive birth at much older age (increase in multiples) and acess to reproductive technology (again, increase in multiples) which lead to hihger possibilty of low birth and premature infants.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=6219&type=0

[bcblondie]

Well we're not debating the same thing here but that's ok. Thank you for at least phrasing it nicely.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by bcblondie 

I just read it in google, don't know which site. It may or may not be correct. Life over sterility though, I'm sure. They'd cut off an arm to save your life, no? I'd risk an infection to save my baby... I'm sure it depends on the area. I'll ask my midwife.

I'm sure it doesn't depend on the area.  I'm sure its not safe - and we're not talking "life over sterility".  Performing what is a pretty major surgery, in a non-sterile environment would most certainly result in the death, or severe infection in the mother.  Sepsis, when it occurs, is life threatening, and does cause death.  And no, I don't think an arm would be amputated in an ambulance either.

[bcblondie]

You vaccinate?

[IwannaBanRN]

If your midwife  had to push baby back in, they would have had a heck of a time even getting the baby out by c-section, and caused brain damage that way. I knew someone who was too progressed in labor for a c-section, but the OB called for it anyway, and her head was wedged and the OB had to stand on the table to even pull her out. She had massive bleeding in the brain and is now special needs with seizures. THANK GOODNESS you stayed at home!

[Kanna]

Originally Posted by bcblondie 

You vaccinate?

LOL, yes. The full shebang. I've travelled quite a bit, so I'm immunized against anything ranging from japanese encephalitis to yellow fever and rabies.

DD and DH get the vaccines appropriate for our area. We even went for the H1N1 vaccine.

I do appreciate the fact that people have different emphasis' on different kind of risks, thus leading to different approaches to the same problem, which is perfectly o.k., as long as everybody knows exactly what they're getting into.

Vaccinating fit our "risk profile", meaning that for us, it felt more important to lower the risk of catching certain illnesses, than avoiding any risks that might have come with the vaccines themselves. Other people feel the other way round.

[bcblondie]

That's true, IwannabanRN! He was obviously SOOO close, hey? I mean I know at the end there they could see the top of the head for a fair bit.

Kanna that was directed at supersingle and her defensive signature. I was trying to kill the thread. (well at least the derailment of it.) Because we're arguing a moot point. I respect people's decision whether they vax or not. I was hoping she'd storm off in a huff lol.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by bcblondie 

Kanna that was directed at supersingle and her defensive signature. I was trying to kill the thread. (well at least the derailment of it.) Because we're arguing a moot point. I respect people's decision whether they vax or not. I was hoping she'd storm off in a huff lol.

Yes I vax.  For all the same reasons Kanna does.  The thread hadn't been derailed by my siggy - so it should not have been brought up.  What "moot" point are we arguing though?  You mentioned twice that c/s in an ambulance on the way to the hospital are an option in the case of a life threatening emergency - I pointed out, along with a few others - that they simply aren't an option as they are far too serious a surgery to be completed in such an environment.  I pointed that out, in what I thought was pretty respectful, and rather than responding to the issue, or simply choosing not to respond to my post, you have to bring up my siggy?  Why intentionally try to offend someone - I'm not sure what the point in that is, other than to be a bitch.

[bcblondie]

Ignoring the drama seekers....

[bcblondie]

Oh look, I can block members.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by bcblondie 

Ignoring the drama seekers....

Pot, meet kettle.

[Mama2Kayla]

Originally Posted by Kanna 

Since I don't actually remember my mom, it's not that bad. And my dad remarried and the lady he married did become my "new" mom. Still, I sometimes wonder what it would have been like with my real mom.

I know that Paramedic services are a bit different in the states than they are here in Germany. It would be totally unthinkable to do a c-section in an ambulance here in Germany (no sterile field, no surgical equipment on board, no anaesthesiologist or OB available...and never mind the cramped quarters).

None of the ambulance personnel here are schooled to do that. Not the paramedics, not the EMT's and not the Emergency doctors (we've got a "meet-up" system here and as far as I know, in the US there are no emergency doctors working with ambulances at all).

Since I DID work as an EMT and still have a vivid interest in emergency medicine, and since I googled "C-section" and "Ambulance", but couldn't find any details on that, I'd be very happy and greatful if maybe you could provide a link or something?

Concerning tone, we have a saying here in Germany: "Der Ton macht die Musik" which basically means "It's the notes you hit that make the music.".

Here on the internet, it's not always easy to hit the right ones, since writing lacks stuff like body language and tone of voice (which communicate a lot of the intention the speaker has), and you get a lot of people from a lot of different communicative backgrounds (the soft spoken ones and the head-on ones).

Alenushka's comment was a bit on the short side, but from the way I read it, she was mainly dropping off a bit of information / a thought that was pertinent to your original question....but then, I come from a very "head-on" communication background.

*raises an eyebrow at Mama2Kayla*

THAT though was, even if I try to give you the benefit for doubt, TOTALLY uncalled for.

Maybe you'd like to apologize?

Um, no....I'm not apologizing. But thanks for your concern

I was shocked that anyone would consider a c-section by an EMT as an option. I had no idea anyone would think that was possible.

Edited by Mama2Kayla - 8/13/11 at 2:36pm

[Alenushka]

It is hard to compare thing without full records. I have a friend who had simular situation and baby is OK. And mom. Yes, the head was peeking but the baby was just stuck and was not coming out despite 5 hours of pushing. The OB and RNs really tried to give my friend vaginal birth but it was not an anatomical possibility.

Originally Posted by IwannaBanRN 

If your midwife  had to push baby back in, they would have had a heck of a time even getting the baby out by c-section, and caused brain damage that way. I knew someone who was too progressed in labor for a c-section, but the OB called for it anyway, and her head was wedged and the OB had to stand on the table to even pull her out. She had massive bleeding in the brain and is now special needs with seizures. THANK GOODNESS you stayed at home!