Do parents have the right to make vax decisions for their kids?

[kathymuggle]

As my children age (15, 12, 8) I look at them and think:  "I do not have the right to make vax decisions for them."  

They are perfectly capable (well - not the 8 yr old, yet) of making the decision for themselves.

This thought caused me to backtrack and wonder if I ever had the right to make a decision to vax for them.

I think parents have the right and responsabilty to make medically necessary decisions for their kids while those kids are incapable of making decisions for themselves. Given the low, low chance of acquiring most VPD's or having a bad reaction to VPD  (exceptions may apply), I do not feel I have the right to make the decision to vax for my child.  It is their bodies and their decision.

What do you think?  I would prefer it if we kept this discussion civil and shared what we believe instead of attacking others.

[lovebeingamomma]

I think we have the right to make the decision either way.  Just like we have the right to decide what we feed them.  We don't say, hey, you make the grocery list, and decide if you want to become obese or not.  I don't think kids are able to always make the best decisions, no I'm not saying they're stupid, but I really don't think any kid would decide to get a shot.  Take out peer pressure or any other outside influence, I can't see any kid, 5, 12, 15, I don't care how old, deciding to go out and get a shot, even if it were best for them.  If it were up to kids they would do a lot of stupid things (again not saying they're stupid, but there's a reason parents exist)  And how would you even present the information to them?  Because it would be biased based on your opinion.  It's like tatoo's, if you're 18 and moving out, find go get one, but as a parent I have the right to say that while a minor and living in my house, you're not doing that to your body.  And no I'm not against tatoo's it's just an example.  If my kid said, hey mom, I really don't want chickenpox, can I please get the vaccine?  Um, nope, sorry!  I don't think that's what best for you.  When they're older, if they want to get the vaccine that's up to them.

[philomom]

Hmm, I would never circumcise, pierce or tattoo my child because they have a right to make these decisions when they are grown.

However, the risk of catching infection/sickness won't wait until they are 18. My kids have been slow vaxed.

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

This was my sentiment. 
 

Originally Posted by philomom 

However, the risk of catching infection/sickness won't wait until they are 18. My kids have been slow vaxed.

The problem with letting the child make the decision is that by the time they are truly ready and able to make a mature and educated decision on the matter, they may have already lived through several "outbreaks" of VPDs. 

Anyone who knows me knows I am NOT pro vax.  I am, however, always revisiting my choice.  I told my husband 3 years ago when I decided to cease and desist all current vaccines, that it was not a closed door either.  I would not, however, leave the decision up to my kids to make.  Because as their parent, Its MY job to protect until they are able to do that themselves.  and NYS says thats not until their atleast 18.  :-D
 

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma 

I We don't say, hey, you make the grocery list, and decide if you want to become obese or not.  I don't think kids are able to always make the best decisions, no I'm not saying they're stupid, but I really don't think any kid would decide to get a shot.  Take out peer pressure or any other outside influence, I can't see any kid, 5, 12, 15, I don't care how old, deciding to go out and get a shot, even if it were best for them.  If it were up to kids they would do a lot of stupid things (again not saying they're stupid, but there's a reason parents exist) 

I am not sure that is true.  I come from a (not hard core) consensual living/USing perspective, and I think kids are very capable of making reasonable decisions for themselves.  Not always - but then neither do adults.  I absolutley think a 15 yr old is capable of researching vaxxes and deciding he or she does or does not want one.  If my 15 year did all sorts of research, listenned to differing opinions, and still decided he wanted a vax I would probably let him.  It is his body, and I would feel a strong need to honour his (displayed through research)  decision making abilities.

And how would you even present the information to them? 

Because it would be biased based on your opinion. 

Yes it would be.  It is pretty much standard in parenting.  I am a little left of centre (among other things)  - you can bet I am more likely to rant against my conservative prime minister than praise him.  Parents are people and we have baggage and POV - it is what it is.

...It's like tatoo's, if you're 18 and moving out, find go get one, but as a parent I have the right to say that while a minor and living in my house, you're not doing that to your body.

 You technically have the right - but in some situations I do not think you should exercise it.  There have been many debates on the teen forum on this - some people believe teens have to do exactly as their parents want until 18, and then they get to make decisions - and some believe we should loosen the reins as they age so they are not flung into decision making the moment they turn 18.  For most people safety issues are the last area they hold the reins with.  

While vaxxing is a safety issue  - it isn't (statistically) a huge one.  The likelihood of an unvaxxed person getting a VPD is really, really low; the likelihood of an older child or teen having a reaction to a vax is also pretty low.  It is a safety issue - but in the scope of things in this country it is a fairly low risk one.  

Thanks for the POV!  

Kathy

Edited by kathymuggle - 8/2/11 at 11:38am

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by philomom 



However, the risk of catching infection/sickness won't wait until they are 18. My kids have been slow vaxed.

The same could be said for the risk of vax reactions.

I do wonder if we make more of VPD and vax reactions than we should and if they can be a decision that is deferred.  

Example:  do I know how many kids died of a VPD last year in Ontario?  Nope, but I would bet money the number is in the single digits.  OTOH, something like 160-170 people drowned last year in Ontario, many of them children.

My point is I am not so sure the risks are huge from vaxxing or not vaxxing  (no disrespect meant to anyone who actually has had a child suffer from a VPD or reaction).  As a non vaxxer, I tend to think not vaxxing is a little safer in general (otherwise I would vax) but both activities have a fairly low risk rate.

edited to add:  I am sort of fleshing out my opinion on this topic - it is not solid.  Just wondering what others think!

[lovebeingamomma]

"You technically have the right - but in some situations I do not think you should exercise it.  There have been many debates on the teen forum on this - some people believe teens have to do exactly as their parents want until 18, and then they get to make decisions - and some believe we should loosen the reins as they age so they are not flung into decision making the moment they turn 18.  For most people safety issues are the last area they hold the reins with."

You don't think I should always exercise that right, and I think your wrong NOT to exercise that right in most situations.  That's why we have this right to begin with, everyone thinks they're right, and there will always be debates.  All we can do is what we think is best.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma 

"You technically have the right - but in some situations I do not think you should exercise it.  There have been many debates on the teen forum on this - some people believe teens have to do exactly as their parents want until 18, and then they get to make decisions - and some believe we should loosen the reins as they age so they are not flung into decision making the moment they turn 18.  For most people safety issues are the last area they hold the reins with."

You don't think I should always exercise that right, and I think your wrong NOT to exercise that right in most situations.  That's why we have this right to begin with, everyone thinks they're right, and there will always be debates.  All we can do is what we think is best.

Do you think parents should have the right to pierce, tattoo, circ?

Legal and moral right ? (the two are different - parents do have the legal right to pierce and circ even if they do not have the moral right, IMHO)

The debates rage on this forum for a variety of reasons - but one is because there is no clear cut answer.  

Given the ambiguity of vaxxing in general and given the low, low chance of VPD and reactions, shouldn't deferring the decision to our children (and it is their bodies) be acceptable?

Edited to add:  As my children age, I am sorting out what is my business/job and why and what is theirs.  I guess I am doing this to vax as well

Edited by kathymuggle - 8/2/11 at 3:05pm

[lovebeingamomma]

In general I think parents should have the right to do anything that's not illegal or abusive.  That doesn't mean it's always the best decision, but I think the right should remain theirs.  Tattooing a minor is illegal isn't it?

[aecampbell]

Until a child is fully able to understand what vaccinating is, the parent should probably have the control over many things the child does. . . but to be honest, unless they educate themselves thoroughly and can make decisions for themselves, they shouldn't be vaccinated!!!

[ammiga]

As an adult with a college degree, a doctorate, and several "bonus" degrees and certifications, I find the subject of vaccines unbelievably difficult to sift through and research. I know that children who are 15 and younger can be very smart and capable with a great many things. Vaccine research is definitely something I would encourage my children of any age to research. However, as the parent, I make that final call until they are legally able to do so.

I err on the side of not vaccinating. Yes, children can come into contact with VADs before they can decide to vaccinate themselves. But, as the parent, I feel fully capable of handling illness as it hits our family (with the help of professionals when needed). If my children decide to someday vaccinate against anything, that will be their choice when they are adults. There are some things that are not happening on "my watch"- vaccines are on that list.

[katelove]

I think parents have the right to make health/medical decisions for their children, including vaxing/not vaxing.

There is pretty good research which shows that our consequence prediction ability does not fully develop until we're in our early 20s. That's why the late teens to early 20s age group are so over-represented in accident stats. Legally they have the ability to make choices and the resources to act on them but they aren't able to predict the consequences as reliably as a person 10 years older. And, yes of course, there are always exceptions.

The older my child gets the more I will take her views into consideration and I'm sure she will be allowed to make choices before she is 18 but, if I really thought that she would do lasting, irreparable harm, then I would overrule.

It is, IMO, one of the weighter responsibilities of parenting and one I take very seriously.

Specifically on the subject of vaxing, she is unvaxed for now. We are undecided about whether we will do any as she gets older. I personally think that the greatest risks associated with vaxing are in the early years when the brain and immune system are still developing so I would probably be fine with my 15yo saying that she wanted to get a vax.

Circ'ing/piercing are different IMO. I wouldn't call another parent immoral for making the choice but I would not  make the choice to cosmetically alter my child. I would let my child make the decision when I felt they were old enough. Even if an ear piercing goes wrong it's unlikely to ruin her life so that choice could be made earlier. Circ'ing would need to wait until adulthood.

[SneakyPie]

I think we have not only the right but the responsibility to make that decision on behalf of our children.  They are not old enough even to choose to get the vaccinations when they are at the right age to start vaccinating, and even later they are certainly not old enough to understand the public-health implications of vaccinations.  Please - who among us would have "consented" to a shot when we were kids?

We subscribe to a lot of the principles of CL in our family, but when it comes to some decisions, we just have to be grownups about it and take the responsibility ourselves.  It's not fair to the inexperienced child or even teenager, to place certain decisions in their laps before giving them to tools to make those decisions wisely (rather than just out of temporary self-interest).

[stik]

Decisions about vaccination start well before children are verbal.  I would be pretty comfortable leaving a vax decision in the hands of a 15 year old under most circumstances, and a 12 and 8 year old under some circumstances.  But I started making vax decisions for my children before they were born, and those decisions affected their care starting immediately after birth, because the risks and benefits of disease and vaccination started to affect them immediately after birth.  

For most of the typical vaccination schedule, there's no question that children old enough to be vaccinated are too young to express an opinion, or to understand information on the topic and make a rational judgment.  Thus, parents are the only people who can make vaccination decisions for their children for most of what is considered the critical period for vaccines.  Sure, you can wait until a child is 12 or 15 to get any vaccinations at all, but that kind of delay is a pretty big decision made for a child by an adult.  

I think it's honest to acknowledge that decisions about vaccination are made for children by adults until they get pretty close to adulthood.

[SilverMoon010]

I don't think children 12 or even 15 have the capability to make such decisions on their own.  Vaccine decisions are not black and white.  It goes far beyond the risk-versus-benefit factor of each vaccine.  Kids that age just don't have the experience or education at that point on how to research a topic extensively, from all points of view.  Of course kids can be very smart at that age and know how to research, but they don't have the "wordly" knowledge yet at that point to make a completely informed, educated decision.  They may be able to make a half-ass decision but not one with all of the information needed.

Besides weighing the risks-vs.benefit factor for each vaccine, each disease must be researched as well as understanding the risk factor that the individual may or may not have for getting that particular disease, the overall health of the individual and a basic understanding as to how the immune system works, knowing most diseases can be treated and how, the ability to understand how much marketing plays a role in selling products and the ability to see past specific approaches/tactics used to get that product sold (i.e., such tactics as "everyone needs this product or they will die"), and the ability to understand politics/financial interests to a point and realize that there is more to it then meets the eye.  This is all information that makes it difficult for even adults to make a decision.  Therefore, I surely can't see a child making that kind of decision.  Kids are expected to grow up way to fast these days and now expected to make serious medical decisions for themselves? This reminds me of the thread I saw a while ago where CA wants to pass a law (not sure what the verdict is on that, maybe they did pass it?) that allows minors to consent to vaccines for STDs without their parents' knowledge.  Call me crazy, I just don't see it.

[sosurreal09]

I think that they should have the right to chose b/c in this country if we didn't chose then who would? Certainly not our 2 month old baby....The gov? We know what $ide they are on.

I am not "against" vaccines but I do not vax and will not vax b/c I BLINDLY vaxed my DD and she had several horrible and painful reactions...oh my stupidity for completely trusting my babes Dr...

I think the only real issue for me is that I think maybe, just maybe MOST people vax blindly. (not anyone on MDC I am assuming, just our population in general) I think it's up to us, the parents, to completely and fully inform ourselves and come to an educated decision when it comes to injecting out children with, well anything. That' not too much to ask right? I am not arguing the outcome of their decision, just that it be an informed one.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I think that they should have the right to chose b/c in this country if we didn't chose then who would? Certainly not our 2 month old baby....The gov? We know what $ide they are on.

As a society I think parents should have the right to choose whether to vax their children or not.  I agree with the above.  My musing were more on the personal rather than the societal.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 

I don't think children 12 or even 15 have the capability to make such decisions on their own.  Vaccine decisions are not black and white.  It goes far beyond the risk-versus-benefit factor of each vaccine.  Kids that age just don't have the experience or education at that point on how to research a topic extensively, from all points of view.  Of course kids can be very smart at that age and know how to research, but they don't have the "wordly" knowledge yet at that point to make a completely informed, educated decision.  They may be able to make a half-ass decision but not one with all of the information needed.

 This reminds me of the thread I saw a while ago where CA wants to pass a law (not sure what the verdict is on that, maybe they did pass it?) that allows minors to consent to vaccines for STDs without their parents' knowledge.  Call me crazy, I just don't see it.

I just cannot see making a 12 or 15 yr get a shot if they did not want to.  I will intervene if something is truly and urgently medically necessary, but that would be about it.   I really do think we should respect it is their body.

In Ontario (other provinces?) I am positive teens are allowed to consent to vaccines.  The are considered "mature minors" and if the nurse decides they are capable of understanding the risks and reasons for vax, they may consent.  It is hard for adults to refuse medical personel, never mind teens, particularly if all their friends are getting vaxxed.  Many parents in the know keep their kids home on vax day.  I would keep this in mind in case your kids end up in a brick and mortar school.

[sosurreal09]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

As a society I think parents should have the right to choose whether to vax their children or not.  I agree with the above.  My musing were more on the personal rather than the societal.

Well then I think it's a tough call and would depend on whether or not you believe vaccines are in fact "life saving". It's controversial though. I mean there is evidence and "numbers" that are in favor of vax being "life saving", but I think the evidence is incomplete for a host of reasons.

So if I look at it as someone who has had a child (temporarily THANK GOD) adversely effected by vax, then no I don't think we should have the choice. Heck I'm not sure I think vax should even exist in countries with proper water, hygiene, sanitation, and sewage.  So had my DDs reactions been permanent IDK how I could live with myself knowing it all could have been avoided. A reaction to a vaccine is life changing and can be life changing for the rest or your LOs life...I keep hearing there is "such a slim chance" of reactions, but I know differently. I know NO Dr would even admit my DDs reactions were from vax when it was such a black and white case! I also know that even after her reactions they were STILL harassing me to vax...until we switched to a holistic ped who remarkably is against vax and parents seek out that office after being told they were wrong about a vax reaction and the vax did not cause the issue. Vax "can do no wrong" in so many people's and Dr's eyes and I want to know WHY they keep saying that, even to someone who was directly effected by it.

It seems they want "hardcore" proof of the reaction on paper with tests, yet they refuse to acknowledge the simple truth(or do any tests). My DD's reactions were completely proven by a inactive vax period (6+ months) where my DD was COMPLETELY CURED followed by a single isolated vax that set off 75% of the problems she had before...and taking 5 months to heal from them this time....but I was told there was "no correlation" and it was just a big coincidence....Honestly I had no idea it was all form the vax until I stopped vaxing for other reasons and like I said she became completely cured, 100%, until we tried just one isolated vax and it set it all off again (except for the seizures thank God again). It's been 6 months now, she has only been healed a month, but now all of a sudden has a genuine allergy to a food that seemingly came out of nowhere....

If I do vax there is still a chance she can get the "VPD" and if I don't vax, there is a chance she can get a "VPD". If I don't vax she can't get an adverse reaction to a vax, so I'm going with the latter here.

To be more extreme if you look at it kind of like circ (although IMO circ is much worse) if a parent chooses to circ, that child's life is changed forever, if a parent vaxes there is a chance that child's life could change forever.

I wish I could take back all the unnecessary pain I caused my DD by vaxing her. It's funny too b/c while she was being fully vaxed, on schedule, she got the same "VPD" 3 stinking times! Thought they prevented it, not caused it?!

Anyways don't want to start any debates here, that is just our personal experience, my opinions on vax, and the truth of what happened to my little girl.

[SilverMoon010]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I just cannot see making a 12 or 15 yr get a shot if they did not want to.  I will intervene if something is truly and urgently medically necessary, but that would be about it.   I really do think we should respect it is their body.

I agree.  I don't vax so my post was written from a nonvaxer point of view.  I just couldn't see handing my child all of this research material on vaccines when they are a teen and saying "Go knock yourself out. It's your decision. Your old enough now."  Kids just don't understand all of the fear-mongering and politics out there that I couldn't see giving them this responsibility. Not vaccinating is the default though, so it's easier for me to say all of this because what kid is going to come to their parents and say they want to get vaccinated? If it was the other way around and I vaccinated completely and stood by vaccines totally and my child came to me one day and said they didn't want anymore, I don't know how I'd feel.  It makes for a different situation.  Tough call and perhaps a double standard.