Pitbull Mix vs. Kids' Safety Quandry

[Plady]

Hi, I have a 7 month old Lab mix that is apparently mixed with Pit Bull.  She can be a sweet dog but she hasn't been trouble free (what puppy is?).  In the past few months she killed one of our chickens and two of our ducks and she has been nippy and rough with our two kids ages 9 and 3.  Up until yesterday I chalked the roughness up to puppyhood exuberance and just tried to be on top of it while she was with the kids.

So yesterday I was watching the 3 year old (almost 4) walking towards the house and the puppy was running down this long hill behind her and I thought "uh oh, Twinkles is going to jump on her!" but she didn't, she ran past dd then turned around and ran back behind her and then launched herself into dd, knocked her down and then jumped on her back.  Coincidentally I was on the phone with my dad who had just emailed me a story about the pit bull problem in Madison WI and he'd been asking if we'd noticed any signs of aggression in Twinkles.  So when I hung up on him to run out and make sure dd was okay he was pretty upset.  Now he feels strongly that we're risking the kids' safety by keeping Twinkles (she's now 7 months and scheduled to be spayed tomorrow).  I'm totally torn.  On one hand I could be unsentimental enough to say that between the poultry kills and the near misses with dd (last week she jumped up and nipped dd on the face - not bad but again, it could have been a lot worse) we should just have her euthanized tomorrow instead of passing her on to another owner who may not have kids or livestock but who would still then be taking care of a ticking time bomb - but on the other I feel like she is at heart a sweet dog who wants to please and we just need to be even more focused on her training and see if her getting spayed helps to tone down her exuberance.  What would you do?  Yesterday's incident was clearly more premeditated than puppyish exuberance but how do you know the difference between a sign and a fluke?  I don't want to overreact but I also don't know if I could live with myself if she really did hurt one of the kids.  Any thoughts?  Any btdt?

[minnowmomma]

watch the dog whisperer,it may give you some training ideas and clear warning signs that a dog is dangerous.Sorry i couldn't offer more help.

[Doodlebugsmom]

I would look into some training ASAP. It doesn't sound like she's particularly aggressive, and training a puppy not to be "nippy" is relatively easy. I don't think the fact that she's killed a chicken and some ducks makes her aggressive either. If a critter makes it into our yard, our dogs definitely want to go after it. Just because she is a pit mix it doesn't make her more dangerous than any other untrained dog. Good luck with this! I really think working with a good trainer will be very helpful. The Dog Whisperer is fun to watch, but not really supposed to be used to help people train their own dogs. It usually features dog that have pretty extreme behavioral problems.

[tinuviel_k]

I agree: it is time to step up the training. She does not sound aggressive at all to me. I have not met your dog in person, but she does NOT sound like a "ticking time bomb" that needs to be euthanized. The kid-jumping sounds like puppy play, pure and simple. A pup would treat a playmate in the same fashion. The problem is that it is not appropriate behavior when playing with humans, and that is something you need to teach her. Until she is trained and old enough to be reliable she will need constant supervision around the children. Not because she is part pit, but because she is a young, excitable dog who does not know her own strength or the limits of her human friends.. Likewise with the nipping: it sounds like she has not learned human manners, and if you want to keep her or keep her lack of manners from developing into a real problem then it is time to get professional training ASAP.

The poultry killing is not a sign of aggression. It is probably not coming from the pit side, either: the majority of the bird killers I have known have been labs. Many dogs have a prey drive. If your dog's prey drive is especially strong then you need to keep the birds and the dog apart, pure and simple. My border collie/Aussie/shepherd/who knows what mutt has a bit of a prey drive. We first introduced her to chickens when she was 9 months old and it became clear right away that she can't be left alone with them. I believe that with consistent training she will be able to be around chickens and not chase/kill them, but I probably won't risk unsupervised time until she is at least three years old and has shown that she can obey a command over following her instinct.

[Plady]

Thank you for the input!  I think that more (continuing)  training is the right thing.  It's so easy to lose perspective when you have a Very Concerned Parent on the phone putting words to your darkest fears. She is a sweet dog and I think she really wants to be a good dog.  We've been extra diligent about her training and she is doing better all the time.  I appreciate hearing how just because she's got some Pit Bull in her that doesn't make her a killing machine.  Sometimes it's so hard to not believe the hype.

Thanks!

[foreverinbluejeans]

I live in Tucson and a pit mix just last week attacked his owner and the man needed over 60 units of blood and was near death. The family can't recognize him. I don't think it is worth the gamble. I would find a pit rescue or another rescue and give the dog to them.

I found a link to the story. Two of my sons work for the Tucson Red Cross and this one attack has left Tucson in need of blood donors.

http://blog.dogsbite.org/2011/08/61-year-old-tucson-man-near-death-after.html 

[starrlamia]

Originally Posted by minnowmomma 

watch the dog whisperer,it may give you some training ideas and clear warning signs that a dog is dangerous.Sorry i couldn't offer more help.

please DO NOT watch cesar millan, his training methods are not appropriate and are highly outdated.

Pit bulls are not an aggressive breed, every breed of dog if not trained, socialized and reared properly has a chance of being human aggressive. Pit bulls have been bred for 100's of years to be extremely people focused. Unfortunately it creates good news stories so you hear the pit bull cases and not other breed cases (of which i can link you many).

Killing chickens and other animals is normal for any dog but esp a terrier breed (and lab for that matter), it's called prey drive, just like you would expect a cat to kill a mouse, it does not indicate aggression toward people whatsoever. I would step up training, do nilif and remember that she is a pup and in her teenager phase, she also probably doesnt realize her size and strength! (my 44lb bully thinks he is a lap dog.. lol). www.pitbullforum.com is an amazing resource for all things pit bull :)

[daisymama12]

I have a dog of indeterminate breeds, but lots of people have asked me if he is a pit mix. Who knows, but it used to generate anxiety in me because of the awful reputation. We got him at10 months old, in full male adolescence from the pound.

I have taken him to 3 obedience training courses that are positive reinforcement based, and he is doing great. He was first in class in the last class we took. He has come Such a long way, and is a great dog. Any issues we still have to deal with are due to his iffy first 10 months of life, and with behaviors that are not pit bull associated.

I have also read a fair amount on pb's just to educate myself for when people make ignorant statements. There is a new Yorkers article available online on the topic that I though was an even minded look at the issue.

My sons, dh and I love that mutt to bits

[Doodlebugsmom]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans 

I live in Tucson and a pit mix just last week attacked his owner and the man needed over 60 units of blood and was near death. The family can't recognize him. I don't think it is worth the gamble. I would find a pit rescue or another rescue and give the dog to them.

I found a link to the story. Two of my sons work for the Tucson Red Cross and this one attack has left Tucson in need of blood donors.

http://blog.dogsbite.org/2011/08/61-year-old-tucson-man-near-death-after.html 

I couldn't disagree more with this advice. As a pp noted, any dog who is not trained and socialized properly has the potential to bite and be aggressive.

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/OtherBreedBites/AllDogsBite.htm

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans 

I live in Tucson and a pit mix just last week attacked his owner and the man needed over 60 units of blood and was near death. The family can't recognize him. I don't think it is worth the gamble. I would find a pit rescue or another rescue and give the dog to them.

I found a link to the story. Two of my sons work for the Tucson Red Cross and this one attack has left Tucson in need of blood donors.

http://blog.dogsbite.org/2011/08/61-year-old-tucson-man-near-death-after.html 

Eh, I'd *like* not to agree with this, but I really do.  It isn't that pits/pit mixed are always vicious, it's just that if/when they do become aggressive they tend not to have an off switch and are far more tenacious than most other breeds.  Additionally, you can't open their jaws as you can with most breeds.  With- say, a lab, you can open the jaws by pressing their cheek against the teeth or prying the jaw open.  With many of he bull breeds, you can't- not even with a pry bar etc.  For me, it isn't a question of whether they are vicious as much as the potential harm they may cause.  I don't believe a pit bull should ever be in a home with children- the risk is too great should something go wrong. 

(I say this having owned/bred/shown another bull breed. I absolutely adore them, and they unlike pitbulls, were bred NOT to turn on humans ever,  but I still would not have them in a home with small children- or cats. Eep- cats.)

[starrlamia]

Pit bulls mouths can be opened, using a break stick, they are specially made to be able to insert them in the back of their mouths to pry them open. They do tend to bite and hold, like many bull and terrier breeds, but if your dog aggressively attacks a person or another animal then it is the owner's failure not the dogs. Pit bull and bull/terrier breeds are extremely good with children the APBT used to be called the nanny dog. However, again, you need to be responsible and not leave your children unattended with a dog and you need to train your dog.

FYI- Pit bulls were also bred for 100's of years to not turn on their owners or people in general. For dog fighting it was extremely important for the dogs to be handler friendly and focused. The dogs you see in the news are not typical for the breed. Unfortunately when you have a breed in such high population, and being so poorly bred, raised and managed accidents are just waiting to happen. If you actually look at overall bite statistics, pit bulls are not on the top of the list for bites.

[blessedwithboys]

"Pit bulls" were used for many years to guard children.  I think what has happened is that the breed has degenerated due to the idea of a bad-ass looking dog signifying status.  I blame the bad reputation pits have on the idiot BYBs who turn them out fast to make money and who ignore the genetic aspects of improving a breed.

Where I live, people crate the pups separately around 4 or 5 weeks, supposedly because the bitch is likely to kill her pups, but I think it's the BYBs attempt to make them more aggressive.  Well, of course the pups are screwed up, they have the canine version of Reactive Attachment Disorder!

If there is such a thing as a responsible bully breeder, I would have no problem having a pit near my kids, but I'm not sure that exists anywhere near me.

(In the interest of full disclosure, my sister is a bully BYB...where's the "ashamed" smiley?)

[insidevoice]

We raised/bred/showed English bull terriers- who are a little more terrier in terms of behavior than many pit bulls (staffs) seem to be.  (When the miniature bull terrier was being developed as a breed, a lot of jack russell was crossed in- and the crazy/neurotic behavior went through the roof, sadly.)  They also have problems with separating out pops and crate training them very early because the mothers will kill the pups or the pups will begin to hurt each other as they grow.  It does further screw up what would otherwise be a very nice breed.  A responsible breeder would never sell pups from a bitch who became aggressive without a spay/neuter contract, and would immediately spay the dam. BYBs aren't often willing to cut their profits like that. I suppose if I ran across a responsible breeder, my take might be a little different, but with a mixed breed- the risk of poor breeding/high aggression is just so scary to me.  

Also, in interest of fair disclosure, I will explain that I am a little touchy about dogs exhibiting potentially aggressive behaviors in a way I would not have been even six months ago.  We had a lab begin to demonstrate these behaviors, and eventually bite DD's best friend (thankfully, it was not a serious bite and there was only a small tooth puncture on her forearm.)  I had to have the dog euthanised.  I'm probably much MUCH more likely to err on the side of caution than I would have been prior to that incident.  I only have two very tiny breed dogs now, and will not have another dog any larger until I no longer have small children in my home. 

[Arduinna]

I'm not usually one to suggest getting rid of the dog but I've so BTDT with a dog that kills my livestock and as for that behavior with my kids no way no how would I tolerate that in a dog. At first I was also thinking typical puppy stuff, but what you described is not anything I've ever seen from a lab puppy. How long have you had her and how much training has she already had? Our GSD is 8 months and has been worked with regularly and would never behave that way, but she was a complete PITA as a little puppy, she just needed training. 

[starrlamia]

There are definately good bully breeders out there! It is a matter of looking, however I wouldnt hesitate to rescue a bully breed either. The vast majority of bullies have stable temperments.

Again- killing livestock does not equate to being aggressive toward people including kids. It is a natural canine instinct that can happen in any breed.

There are millions of dogs in the USA alone, and the incidence of being attacked and injured by a dog is fairly scarce

from:http://www.dogbehaviorblog.com/breeds/ 

The 2010 population of the United States is estimated to be about 310 Million people, and there are estimated to be 110 Million households.  The US Humane Society estimates that 39 percent of households own at least one dog, and that there are about 78 Million dogs living in households.

The chance of any given person suffering a fatal dog attack is very small. Dividing 37 (the average number of fatal attacks per year) by 310,000,000 (the estimated population in the US), gives us about a one in 10 Million chance of a person being fatally attacked by a dog. This is comparable to one person suffering a fatal dog attack in the entire Los Angeles County (population 10.3 Million) which includes 88 cities.

neat tidbit

The Facts

In a recent study of 122 dog breeds by the American Temperament Test Society (ATT), Pit Bulls passed the difficult temperament assessment 83.9% of the time. That's as good or better than Beagles at 78.2% and Golden Retrievers at 83.2%.
Out of the Pits, www.outofthepits.org

80% of all dog bites are done by unspayed or unneutered dogs.
The American Veterinary Medical Association

Approximately 4.7 million people will be bitten by a dog this year. Every 40 seconds, someone in the United States seeks medical attention for a dog bite-related injury. Unfortunately, we only hear about the few that were done by a Pit Bull.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

it's all about responsible ownership. Dont leave your kids around a dog unattended. Train your dog, socialize your dog and if you are really concerned consult a certified animal behaviourist (not your average trainer, not cesar millan etc, i can find you one if you want in your area). Teach your dog self control. I would be much more concerned about what the Mix is in your pit bull mix then the pit bull in regards to human aggression.

Another neat tidbit: a study was done in the UK a few years ago. The top 3 aggressive dog breeds were determine to be dauschund, jack russell and chihuahua (not neccessarily in that order)

[aeterna]

Heh... Personally, I'm of the opinion that the statistically "most aggressive" breeds get that way because they are usually small breeds whose owners don't think require training, since they outweigh them. This is, generally, my pet peeve with teacup breeds: every freakin chihuahua (for example) I've met JUMPS on people, and people smile and laugh and say "oh isn't he so friendly!" ....No, he's not. He's obnoxious and demanding. If my 60-lb dog jumped on you, you wouldn't think it was cute. TRAIN YOUR DOG. /rant

OP - pitts are SUPER sweet dogs, but they DO require training and, sometimes, a strong, clear pack order - like ALL dogs. Training is really for the owner: it teaches you how to communicate with your dog in a manner he will understand, so you can get the behavior you desire from him. ;) As you originally assumed, from what I can tell, your pup is exhibiting normal puppy exuberance... and tiny puppy nails and teeth are bloody sharp, so yes, it does hurt if you end up on the wrong side of them while puppy is learning how much roughhousing is okay with these two-legged packmates. (That answer depends on your comfort level, by the way; it's perfectly ok to say NONE.)

 7 months is still pretty young for a large breed dog, so she's still got a bit of time before she's through the gangly, awkward, boisterous phase. But it is a GREAT time to step up the training... even 15 minutes every day will give her something to build on while she learns her "house manners." =)

But, no - she doesn't sound like a ticking time bomb. Real warning signs of dominance/aggression would be more along the lines of: aggressively guarding her food/toys, dominant posturing over favored items, humping your daughter, etc. (And even if these are appearing, it simply means it's time to put Twinkles in her place in the pack order, since she seems to think she's on a higher rung than you would prefer.)

You can tell the difference between a play growl (a light tone, usually accompanied by bowing the chest to the floor with the butt stuck up high in the air; this means "let's play!") and a warning growl (hair up on the dog's neck, teeth aggressively bared, perhaps accompanied by snapping or snarling) much like you can tell the difference between a child's crying over a scraped knee because they want kisses and a child screaming in pain over a real injury. Trust your mama instincts on this one! You'll know if your daughter is really in danger. And if that's not the case... harness all that bouncy puppy energy and help mold her into the well-mannered dog you want to keep forever!

[starrlamia]

be careful with the pack training theory, it isnt supported by any science. Dogs arent trying to take over your household, they simply act according to their training and what you've let them get away with much like a small child. Humping is not usually dominance, it's a sign of over excitement or overstimulation, and a very rude gesture.

Definately work on training and trust your instincts :) 7 months is a tough time in puppyhood!

[Tjej]

Well, our dog was attacked by a pitt bull, so I can vouch for an impossible to open mouth and crazy drive to not let go.  The dog would not let go.  For anything.

I personally could never have a pit bull around kids, and I won't let my kids be around them.  I had a bad experience.  I know that the dog which attacked my dog was poorly socialized, but I also saw the damage that intense drive and bite can do.

I do have a dog that is bigger than I thought I would - around 55lbs.  I was really really intentional about doing a lot of really good training with her and developing a really soft bite with her as a puppy.  She is far from perfect, but she does have a very soft bite and I trust her a lot.  She is still a dog, and I remember that when I have expectations of her, but I spent hours and hours training her so she would be good around my future kids (well, they are here now, but they were future when she was a pup).  So, if you want to keep any big, boisterous dog, I strongly suggest you work very very very hard training, and get the dog a lot of good exercise.

Tjej

[starrlamia]

Dog aggression is normal for pit bulls, they are a breed that was bred for hundreds of years to fight other dogs. That has nothing to do with human aggression, they are 2 completely seperate traits that do not overlap. Again, pit bulls were bred to be extremely human focused, to a fault, I know several pit bulls who just chilled out while their house was being robbed. However you shouldnt let your kids around a dog you dont know well. And especially never let them around any dog unsupervised.
 

Originally Posted by Tjej 

Well, our dog was attacked by a pitt bull, so I can vouch for an impossible to open mouth and crazy drive to not let go.  The dog would not let go.  For anything.

I personally could never have a pit bull around kids, and I won't let my kids be around them.  I had a bad experience.  I know that the dog which attacked my dog was poorly socialized, but I also saw the damage that intense drive and bite can do.

I do have a dog that is bigger than I thought I would - around 55lbs.  I was really really intentional about doing a lot of really good training with her and developing a really soft bite with her as a puppy.  She is far from perfect, but she does have a very soft bite and I trust her a lot.  She is still a dog, and I remember that when I have expectations of her, but I spent hours and hours training her so she would be good around my future kids (well, they are here now, but they were future when she was a pup).  So, if you want to keep any big, boisterous dog, I strongly suggest you work very very very hard training, and get the dog a lot of good exercise.

Tjej

[wanderinblues]

We own a 1-2yo pitbull and I am convinced that pits have no predisposition toward people aggression. They were bred to fight other dogs and animals, and to be friendly with people. Our dog likes to chase and I don't know what he would do if confronted with a cat, but he is EXTREMELY friendly, submissive, cuddly and gentle with every single person he has met, including small children and my 3yo DSD. She can put her hands in his food, take toys out of his mouth (he will let go for her, but not us!), climb all over him, poke him in the eye, etc. Obviously, we do teach her proper behavior around dogs and this stuff is not allowed, but has happened.

He has knocked her down twice due to being very excited to see her and overwhelmed. On the whole, he seems to recognize that she is a "pup" and that she needs gentler treatment.

It's my impression that pits can be weird with other dogs or dogs of the same sex, but ours loves all other dogs. He does get very overstimulated around them and has no manners though, so we supervise carefully.

I have read that all dogs suffer greatly not just from a lack of owner dictated socialization (obviously important) but also from a messed up puppyhood. If they are taken too early or are not allowed to learn from their mother and littermates for any reason, they have a huge chance of fear based aggression, etc. 

Here is a neat article my DP found with pictures of "nanny" pitties http://www.ywgrossman.com/photoblog/?p=676

 Additionally, you can't open their jaws as you can with most breeds.  With- say, a lab, you can open the jaws by pressing their cheek against the teeth or prying the jaw open.  With many of he bull breeds, you can't- not even with a pry bar etc.  For me, it isn't a question of whether they are vicious as much as the potential harm they may cause.  I don't believe a pit bull should ever be in a home with children- the risk is too great should something go wrong.

I can't speak to jaw locking thing with pits, but I HAVE tried to pry open the mouth of a german sheperd that was biting and killing my last dog, a 30lb border terrier. I, and the 3 other people there, tried EVERYTHING. Finally, the third or fourth baseball bat to the nose did it, but too late. My little best friend lived for a month and then died from the massive internal damage from a single bite around the middle. I have read that pits do not possess the strongest bite among dogs; that honor falls to the GSD. 

I don't have a hate on for GSDs either, but I believe that any dog can be dangerous and that pits are definitely not inherently bad. The fault lies with the owner (probably whoever owned the dog early in it's life)

As for the OP, your dogs behavior sounds pretty normal for a 7 month old pup! Training is probably all that is needed. Trust your instincts though; you will be able to tell if the dog is actually unsafe.