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No war but class war - Page 10

Poll Results: What is your family's yearly income?

 
  • 3% (7)
    Less than $10,000
  • 4% (10)
    $10,000-$20,000
  • 7% (16)
    $20,000- $30,000
  • 11% (25)
    $30,000- $40,000
  • 23% (51)
    $50,000-$75,000
  • 22% (48)
    $75,000- $100,000
  • 26% (57)
    above $100,000
214 Total Votes  
post #181 of 224
While it's supposed to be a place to talk about this issue I really think it's creating more division than anything else. Periodically I notice that people still seem to enjoy division. Whether is "class", education, politics or race... sometimes people fall into a zone of comfort by how they identify themselves. They'll argue their staunch belief to no end and hoist themselves up on their pedestal. It's not worth anything if the division continues. To balk at other ideas as a possible real issue is to close your mind and fall back asleep. Stay awake and realize there is so much more to learn.
post #182 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by insidevoice View Post

Low income survival net- the one thing I learned from growing up with parents who were not so good with money- savings is the FIRST thing to come out of pay, not the last.  We aim for 10% but when times were really tight, it was sometimes 5% or even less- it was however, ALWAYS something.  The only thing that was really hard was that when I was very broke, I qualified for food stamps, but periodically that tiny amount into savings would creep up to be enough that I was disqualified until that money was spent down.  While I do understand the thought process, I think that undermines financial security for people who are truly the working poor. 

I agree that this is frustrating does kind of encourage people NOT to save. That small amount of money could pay for emergency repairs, rent, etc. but instead you have to spend it on food, and when all the money is gone and you finally qualify for food stamps, and then your car breaks down and you can't get to work, who is going to help with that car repair??? It locks some people into a vicious cycle of never being able to get ahead -- or even make ends meet. Why not just help people buy food for a year while they get back on their feet, and then they'll still have their safety net so they can STAY on their feet??
post #183 of 224

I do think insisting that people (particularly families)  who have very, very little money can save money is elitist or unrealistic. Feeding people and paying the rent top saving.  I would even argue an acceptable quality of life comes before saving anything beyond an emergency fund.  My MIL was determined to save, save, save so during my Dh adolescence they lived in one of the crappiest areas of Montreal - and he went to the crappiest highschool.  She could have afforded better, but wanted to save.   

 

As for credit - most low income people I know do not have credit issues.  The people I know with credit issues are those who once made a decent income and then something happened - usually job loss.  As they figure out what to do  the debt rises.  Some of this is inevitable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #184 of 224
Not everyone is capable of saving. There are families who can't quite get enough money together to adequately feed and clothe everyone. And I don't think that's a small number of people. If you're in a situation like that, you just plain aren't saving anything. You aren't going to have your kids go barefoot and not have a warm coat and be hungry so you can put money aside for a rainy day. Every day is a downpour at that point.
post #185 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I do think insisting that people (particularly families)  who have very, very little money can save money is elitist or unrealistic. Feeding people and paying the rent top saving.  I would even argue an acceptable quality of life comes before saving anything beyond an emergency fund.  My MIL was determined to save, save, save so during my Dh adolescence they lived in one of the crappiest areas of Montreal - and he went to the crappiest highschool.  She could have afforded better, but wanted to save.   

 

As for credit - most low income people I know do not have credit issues.  The people I know with credit issues are those who once made a decent income and then something happened - usually job loss.  As they figure out what to do  the debt rises.  Some of this is inevitable.

 

How?  How is it elitist and unrealistic for several MDC mamas to tell you that *they* have saved money despite having very little income?  They did it.  There is nothing unrealistic and elitist about that.  Making the assumption that those with little money cannot save is elitist.  It is like telling your daughter she can't be an astronaut and then saying to a female astronaut who corrects you and says "I did it" to shut up because she is just being elitist and unrealistic. 

 

Do most low income people you know share their credit histories and ratings with you?  That is one thing I will give hildare.  Credit companies are great at preying upon those who are the most vulnerable.  I know a lot of individuals with low incomes who have major credit issues.  And yes, they have shared that with me because through my job many of them had a goal of working on a budget which I helped them with. 

 

post #186 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post

 

How?  How is it elitist and unrealistic for several MDC mamas to tell you that *they* have saved money despite having very little income?  They did it.  There is nothing unrealistic and elitist about that.  Making the assumption that those with little money cannot save is elitist.  It is like telling your daughter she can't be an astronaut and then saying to a female astronaut who corrects you and says "I did it" to shut up because she is just being elitist and unrealistic. 

 

Do most low income people you know share their credit histories and ratings with you?  That is one thing I will give hildare.  Credit companies are great at preying upon those who are the most vulnerable.  I know a lot of individuals with low incomes who have major credit issues.  And yes, they have shared that with me because through my job many of them had a goal of working on a budget which I helped them with. 

 


Yes, SOME families are able to save while living on very little.  But they aren't representative of the very poorest - as those people don't have computers or the internet b/c they can't afford anything beyond the barest of necessities.

 

post #187 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post



 

How?  How is it elitist and unrealistic for several MDC mamas to tell you that *they* have saved money despite having very little income?  They did it.  There is nothing unrealistic and elitist about that.  Making the assumption that those with little money cannot save is elitist.  It is like telling your daughter she can't be an astronaut and then saying to a female astronaut who corrects you and says "I did it" to shut up because she is just being elitist and unrealistic. 

 

No, it is not elitist.  It is reality.  If you have trouble feeding yourself, saving is not a priority.    Moreover, this poll clearly shows that most people on this thread are not low income - so someone of middle or high income insisting low income people can save rubs me the wrong way.  

 

Do most low income people you know share their credit histories and ratings with you?  

 

Most of my family is low income.  Many friends are.  People blah-blah-blah pretty easily.  Some of them have no credit debt, and some have a small amount (often under 3000$ - huge for them, but small comparatively).  My husband worked in banking for 7 years.  The people who came to him with huge debt issues were not working poor or on assistance- they were people who used to have money and then didn't and this caused issues, or people who made good money but overspent. I am fairly confident of the statement I made for my area.

 



 

post #188 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post


Yes, SOME families are able to save while living on very little.  But they aren't representative of the very poorest - as those people don't have computers or the internet b/c they can't afford anything beyond the barest of necessities.

 


How is that any different than what I said? 


Edited by APToddlerMama - 8/31/11 at 8:20pm
post #189 of 224

Seriously, ladies.  I have been viewing about 8 threads right now where we are gouging eachothers eyes out.  What is going on?  Is EVERYONE raggin?  RETRACT THE CLAWS!!!!!!!!

post #190 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


Moreover, this poll clearly shows that most people on this thread are not low income - so someone of middle or high income insisting low income people can save rubs me the wrong way.  


 



But how do you think many of those middle or high income people got there?  It's not like many people graduate college and are netting $100k right away.  Even wealthy people often started out low income.

post #191 of 224

I'm not low income anymore, but I was- for a very long time.  I'm not talking about 25K low income, I'm talking about 10-12K/year low income- on a good year!  (And, I had more than one Masters degree while earning these HUGE sums of money...) I lived with extreme poverty for many years, which is why I am comfortable saying that anyone who truly wants to save can.  Even $5 a couple times a month will help.  

 

You have to make hard choices- less than ideal housing (on 10K/year, it had better be less than $400/month- all utilities included ) tiny grocery budgets, thrift shopping for clothes, drive a car that's at least a decade old, and don't finance it- or go without.  If you do have a car, understand that you have liability coverage only because that is all you can afford. You can't take on any ongoing expenses without a REALLY good reason.  Internet?  Only if you can do something with it to help further your education or bring money in the door. 

 

Also, you have to be willing to accept help that is out there. That's hard- it means setting aside your dignity and pride.  It means enduring the dirty looks from the person behind you in line at the grocery store when you try to use an EBT card (foodstamps) and you know they have just classified you as lazy and worthless as a human being.  It means jumping through the hoops of opening all the choices in your life to criticism from people sitting on the other side of a desk, who will determine if you are worthy of help.

 

Some people are so afraid of poverty that they are unwilling to accept that it could happen to them, and they are quick to classify someone struggling as one of "those" people, because then they, safely enough, can not be one of US, and it's a safer place.  If only lazy people, or only people who make bad decisions wind up poor, they are insulated from it. It is really hard to feel safe when all that creates the difference between someone leading a privileged life and someone struggling to meet the most basic needs is a single stroke of luck. 

 

 

 

post #192 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Charlie's~Angel~ View Post

Seriously, ladies.  I have been viewing about 8 threads right now where we are gouging eachothers eyes out.  What is going on?  Is EVERYONE raggin?  RETRACT THE CLAWS!!!!!!!!



Division... best way to make friends
post #193 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post





But how do you think many of those middle or high income people got there?  It's not like many people graduate college and are netting $100k right away.  Even wealthy people often started out low income.



Yes, and?  Maybe they saved while they were low income, but low income comes in different stripes, doesn't it?  It is not realistic to expect everyone (including people who make so little they have difficulty feeding people) to save.  That was my point - as some seemed to be saying everyone can save.  I think that kind of thinking shows very little understanding of the depth of some peoples poverty.  

 

I do know in some circumstances people who are low income can save.  


Edited by purslaine - 8/26/11 at 10:45am
post #194 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Charlie's~Angel~ View Post

Seriously, ladies.  I have been viewing about 8 threads right now where we are gouging eachothers eyes out.  What is going on?  Is EVERYONE raggin?  RETRACT THE CLAWS!!!!!!!!



bolding mine.  Careful careful  nono.gif...I saw someone on another thread chewed out for suggestion we were all raggingorngtongue.gif  

 

I agree with you - and a smilie with claws would rule!

post #195 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post





Yes, and?  Maybe they saved while they were low income, but low income comes in different stripes, doesn't it?  It is not realistic to expect everyone (including people who make so little they have difficulty feeding people) to save.  That was my point - as some seemed to be saying everyone can save.  I think that kind of thinking shows very little understanding of the depth of some peoples poverty.  


I think a lot of people got defensive b/c some posters made it sound like there was no way any poor people couldn't have savings or credit card debt.

 

post #196 of 224
Having a savings account on a low income is quite easy when you don't have children or pets and your health is perfect. I have certainly been on both sides of the spectrum. And I'll tell you that when it's just you or you and your partner it's easier to build up the savings but you throw anything else into the mix and it gets HARD!
post #197 of 224


Im not saying it maliciously.  Just trying to light the friggin mood around here.  This black cloud is getting big.  Bring out the sunshine PEOPLE!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post





bolding mine.  Careful careful  nono.gif...I saw someone on another thread chewed out for suggestion we were all raggingorngtongue.gif  

 

I agree with you - and a smilie with claws would rule!



 

post #198 of 224

I think it's pretty clear that the deregulation of the credit card industry (started under Reagan), as tracked pretty well with the overall decline/stagnation of the American middle class. Things have changed and it's not as good for the average person as it was during the first three decades after WWII, when the US economy was so dominant worldwide. 

 

 

post #199 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Charlie's~Angel~ View Post


Im not saying it maliciously.  Just trying to light the friggin mood around here.  This black cloud is getting big.  Bring out the sunshine PEOPLE!
 



 



I know.  I said it jokingly.  Given the cloud though I can understand if you did not understand my intent.  smile.gif

post #200 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Charlie's~Angel~ View Post

Seriously, ladies.  I have been viewing about 8 threads right now where we are gouging eachothers eyes out.  What is going on?  Is EVERYONE raggin?  RETRACT THE CLAWS!!!!!!!!
 

lol....I am not "raggin" but I do have a serious case of the pregnancy grouchies.  I am retracting my claws now though...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post




I think a lot of people got defensive b/c some posters made it sound like there was no way any poor people couldn't have savings or credit card debt.

 


Exactly.  And then on top of saying that those with lower incomes couldn't have any saving (which is an elitist and judgemental thing to say anyhow), those of us who said that it is possible in certain cases for those with lower incomes to in fact save money were then called unrealistic and elitist.  Nevermind many of the people saying that it is sometimes possible to save had done it themselves. 

 

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