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No war but class war - Page 11

Poll Results: What is your family's yearly income?

 
  • 3% (7)
    Less than $10,000
  • 4% (10)
    $10,000-$20,000
  • 7% (16)
    $20,000- $30,000
  • 11% (25)
    $30,000- $40,000
  • 23% (51)
    $50,000-$75,000
  • 22% (48)
    $75,000- $100,000
  • 26% (57)
    above $100,000
214 Total Votes  
post #201 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post





Yes, and?  Maybe they saved while they were low income, but low income comes in different stripes, doesn't it?  It is not realistic to expect everyone (including people who make so little they have difficulty feeding people) to save.  That was my point - as some seemed to be saying everyone can save.  I think that kind of thinking shows very little understanding of the depth of some peoples poverty.  



I disagree with this.  I truly do believe that everyone can save, but when you earn next to nothing, it takes HUGE discipline to do so, and it is EASILY wiped out so you have to start back at square one. 

 

    .

.

post #202 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post




Exactly.  And then on top of saying that those with lower incomes couldn't have any saving (which is an elitist and judgemental thing to say anyhow), those of us who said that it is possible in certain cases for those with lower incomes to in fact save money were then called unrealistic and elitist.  Nevermind many of the people saying that it is sometimes possible to save had done it themselves. 

 

I am pretty sure you are talking about me so I reread what I wrote above.   When I said some people could not save I used words like "very, very little money" and "people who have trouble feeding themselves".  I did not state all low income people.  If I did I will edit.  I stand by the fact that it is elitist and unrealistic to expect very low income people to save. If you or any else was able to do so  - good.  It is not impossible.  It is still an unrealistic expectation, however.   I have no idea why you think it is elitist that I think some people who are in (hopefully temporary) circumstances  cannot save.

 

And, while my claws are still out a tiny bit (although I am neither menstruating or preggo)  should people go hungry to save?  Use food banks to save?  Because for some people that would be the choice.
 

 


Edited by purslaine - 8/26/11 at 12:03pm
post #203 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by insidevoice View Post





I disagree with this.  I truly do believe that everyone can save, but when you earn next to nothing, it takes HUGE discipline to do so, and it is EASILY wiped out so you have to start back at square one. 

 

    .

.


That is Ok.  We can disagree.  I do agree with the huge discipline and easily wiped out part, though.

 

I must admit I do not see a big need for me to save in such circumstance (dire poverty).  I would work on increasing my income and standard of living over squirrelling away a few dollars.

 

Savings are a very personal thing though, and for some poeple having 50$ in the bank (if that is what they have saved) may make them feel more secure and that is a good thing.

 

 

 

post #204 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post



And, while my claws are still out a tiny bit (although I am neither menstruating or preggo)  should people go hungry to save?  Use food banks to save?  Because for some people that would be the choice.

 

 



Honestly, yes.  If they aren't accessing the services available to them, they are struggling more than they need to.  I know that in my community, we have a very small food bank (it's actually a closet in the Sheriff's office) but there are a number of people who would really benefit from having the courage to walk in and ask for help.  We've such a stigma around asking for and accepting assistance (again, it comes down to the us/them issue) that people are forgoing any savings at all for their pride.  

 

Once someone knows what they are earning, they need to facilitate life changes to make it possible to live with what they ARE earning, not stagnate bemoaning the need to earn more. 

post #205 of 224

It occurs to me that when we talk about "saving" we may not even be discussing the same thing. For some, that may mean have a bank account with a balance over $1. For others, it  may mean having a dedicated savings account with a minimum balance that doesn't get touched. For others it may mean a jar in the freezer with cash.

 

My claws are retracted as I gently suggest, it is tough to talk about privilege & prejudice, and any money conversation will invariably bring up those themes. Money & credit are tools, but they are not tools that are available equally to everyone or that can be used by everyone in the same way. Discrimination & prejudice & isms play a huge role in people's access to resources. It is a good thing to discuss. Can we each focus on speaking from our own experience without assuming that we can know if our truths are applicable to anyone else? I personally am uncomfortable assuming that I understand anyone else's situation. Many days, I feel like I scarcely fully understand my own. And no matter how much I learn about another person's situation, I always assume there is more I don't know. Money issues are unfathomably complex. It's like food or religion...there's so much there.

post #206 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Charlie's~Angel~ View Post

Seriously, ladies.  I have been viewing about 8 threads right now where we are gouging eachothers eyes out.  What is going on?  Is EVERYONE raggin?  RETRACT THE CLAWS!!!!!!!!


Links, please?
redface.gif
post #207 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post



Links, please?
redface.gif


ROTFLMAO.gif

 

post #208 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by insidevoice View Post





Honestly, yes.  If they aren't accessing the services available to them, they are struggling more than they need to.  I know that in my community, we have a very small food bank (it's actually a closet in the Sheriff's office) but there are a number of people who would really benefit from having the courage to walk in and ask for help.  We've such a stigma around asking for and accepting assistance (again, it comes down to the us/them issue) that people are forgoing any savings at all for their pride.  

 

Once someone knows what they are earning, they need to facilitate life changes to make it possible to live with what they ARE earning, not stagnate bemoaning the need to earn more. 


y'all--if you've ever had a felony, not only can you not vote, but you are disqualified from any assistance, whether it be medicaid or housing.  also, the services are usually only available to "legal" occupants in the US.

 

also..  retracting claws. 

 

i think that the people who have posted who describe how their families were able to put money by were also talking about how they grew up, two of the posters described intact families and circumstances that must have taken place at least 20 years ago, plus or minus a few.  i TOTALLY agree that for most families that were working class, or lower middle class, 2 decades ago, that was indeed a reality and a viable option. 

I think this bears repeating: economic times have changed.  There are lots of people living in the US who live in poverty, and struggle with joblessness, homelessness, and things like being unable to obtain a freaking bank account.  Saving is not a reality for people, in most circumstances, when life is this way.  poverty is very real, and it's hard to understand if you haven't ever seen or experienced it.  i don't think it's elitist to assume that if you can barely feed yourself you can't possible put money into a savings account.  for pete's sake, don't you have to have a minimum balance to even open a bank account? 

 

there are also people who don't live in extreme poverty but who have either had a drastic change in circumstance-- or who have always struggled to get by.  A really fantastic book that would be worth a read is Nickel and Dimed.  It's by an undercover reporter who tries out several jobs that pay around minimum wage and describes what life feels like there.  you can read an exerpt on google books. 

 

me, i have eaten food out of dumpsters.  i have lived in a house with 5 other people, and have had to decide whether to put gas in my car to go to work or buy bread and peanut butter to eat lunch.  i have stolen countless rolls of toilet paper.  but i was able to go to school because i have and recognize that i have privilege.  when i grew up, i had the fortune of not being a color that is discriminated against, and i had options available to me that are not present for other people who are still living with oppression.  and still, i know that i am fortunate because the experiences i had with being poor weren't permanent and they didn't trap me because of the privilege i was born with. 

 

I think it's really worth thinking and talking about-- but it's hard to talk about it when life is insular or if you're into denying that life is severe and harsh for so many freaking people.  and i'm not saying that income = lack of social awareness, but when we try to talk about this kind of thing and people are getting offended, it's worth suggesting that perhaps lots of us are very fortunate, myself at this point in time included, and it's hard to see the whole entire bleak picture that equals the struggle and sad reality for so many. 

 


Edited by hildare - 8/26/11 at 11:59am
post #209 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post




y'all--if you've ever had a felony, not only can you not vote, but you are disqualified from any assistance, whether it be medicaid or housing.  also, the services are usually only available to "legal" occupants in the US.

 


That one person may be ineligible, the remainder of the household will still be able to have assistance, also, this only applies to drug felonies, and in many places, it's easy to get around or has already been changed.  As for the legal residents only being eligible, I can't really say that is necessarily wrong.  While I can't STAND our current immigration laws, they do exist, and I don't think someone should be able to cross the border and expect ongoing assistance.  It just doesn't make sense to me. 

 

There will always be barriers to access, but that is something that will only come to light as more people speak out about what the barriers are in their own lives, and as we hear their challenges and advocate for change. 

 

 

 

 

post #210 of 224


See!  And she knows what I mean!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post




ROTFLMAO.gif

 



 Wouldnt I get in trouble for that? 

post #211 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post




How is that any different than what I said?  I always know I can count on you SSM for a post like that.
 

 


WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  If its nice, well, it certainly doesn't look that way.  You're pretty rude, and I definitely don't like you.

 

post #212 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post


WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  If its nice, well, it certainly doesn't look that way.  You're pretty rude, and I definitely don't like you.

 


It means that despite the fact that I wasn't generalizing, and made that quite clear, you responded as if I was generalizing. 

 


Edited by APToddlerMama - 8/31/11 at 8:21pm
post #213 of 224



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post

y'all--if you've ever had a felony, not only can you not vote, but you are disqualified from any assistance, whether it be medicaid or housing.  also, the services are usually only available to "legal" occupants in the US.



I know people who have felonies and receive assistance...  Also there are many services that can be accessed in this country without being here "legally."  Not saying it is easily accessible, but there are many services from dental and some emergency medical assistance as well as coverage during pregnancy, and ability to access various shelters, food and clothing assistance programs, etc.  It is much harder, of course. 

post #214 of 224



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post



I am pretty sure you are talking about me so I reread what I wrote above.   When I said some people could not save I used words like "very, very little money" and "people who have trouble feeding themselves".  I did not state all low income people.  If I did I will edit.  I stand by the fact that it is elitist and unrealistic to expect very low income people to save. If you or any else was able to do so  - good.  It is not impossible.  It is still an unrealistic expectation, however.   I have no idea why you think it is elitist that I think some people who are in (hopefully temporary) circumstances  cannot save.

 

And, while my claws are still out a tiny bit (although I am neither menstruating or preggo)  should people go hungry to save?  Use food banks to save?  Because for some people that would be the choice.
 

 


I agree that it is an unrealistic *expectation* but I just think it is inappropriate to say that they *cannot* do it.  Because some can, and do.  Maybe it is a dollar a week or a dollar a month, but to them it is something.  I guess it is just a miscommunication. 
 

 

post #215 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post



 

How?  How is it elitist and unrealistic for several MDC mamas to tell you that *they* have saved money despite having very little income?  They did it.  There is nothing unrealistic and elitist about that.  Making the assumption that those with little money cannot save is elitist.  It is like telling your daughter she can't be an astronaut and then saying to a female astronaut who corrects you and says "I did it" to shut up because she is just being elitist and unrealistic. 

 

Do most low income people you know share their credit histories and ratings with you?  That is one thing I will give hildare.  Credit companies are great at preying upon those who are the most vulnerable.  I know a lot of individuals with low incomes who have major credit issues.  And yes, they have shared that with me because through my job many of them had a goal of working on a budget which I helped them with. 

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post


Yes, SOME families are able to save while living on very little.  But they aren't representative of the very poorest - as those people don't have computers or the internet b/c they can't afford anything beyond the barest of necessities.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  If its nice, well, it certainly doesn't look that way.  You're pretty rude, and I definitely don't like you.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post


It means that despite the fact that I wasn't generalizing, and made that quite clear, you responded as if I was generalizing *solely* for the sake of arguing, like you do in lots of posts.

 

 

But you WERE generalizing.  You were.  You were generalizing based on the fact that multiple MDC mama's have been able to save even when very low income - but clearly if they have enough internet access to post lots then they have internet and clearly aren't among the poorest.  That's all I was pointing out. 

 

Can you please show me these "lots of posts" that I make only for the sake of arguing?  I think you just don't like being argued with, and I still think you're rude and I'm glad I don't know you IRL.
 

 

post #216 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by CI Mama View Post

It occurs to me that when we talk about "saving" we may not even be discussing the same thing. For some, that may mean have a bank account with a balance over $1. For others, it  may mean having a dedicated savings account with a minimum balance that doesn't get touched. For others it may mean a jar in the freezer with cash.

 

My claws are retracted as I gently suggest, it is tough to talk about privilege & prejudice, and any money conversation will invariably bring up those themes. Money & credit are tools, but they are not tools that are available equally to everyone or that can be used by everyone in the same way. Discrimination & prejudice & isms play a huge role in people's access to resources. It is a good thing to discuss. Can we each focus on speaking from our own experience without assuming that we can know if our truths are applicable to anyone else? I personally am uncomfortable assuming that I understand anyone else's situation. Many days, I feel like I scarcely fully understand my own. And no matter how much I learn about another person's situation, I always assume there is more I don't know. Money issues are unfathomably complex. It's like food or religion...there's so much there.



Wonderful, thoughtful, awesome post. 

 

Though I sometimes wonder if irritations are bound to arise in such a conversation, even rage, also accidental generalizations and inadvertent put-downs, and that the important part is regrouping after and not letting the conversation get dissociated from our consciousness...because these are really hard conversations, and like you say, really good conversations to have...

 

In any case, thank you thank you for this post. 

post #217 of 224



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

But you WERE generalizing.  You were.  You were generalizing based on the fact that multiple MDC mama's have been able to save even when very low income - but clearly if they have enough internet access to post lots then they have internet and clearly aren't among the poorest.  That's all I was pointing out. 

 

Can you please show me these "lots of posts" that I make only for the sake of arguing?  I think you just don't like being argued with, and I still think you're rude and I'm glad I don't know you IRL.
 

 

How do you know they had the internet when they were living with a very low income?  They have the internet now.  That means nothing about their past financial situation. 

 

 


Edited by APToddlerMama - 8/31/11 at 8:22pm
post #218 of 224


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post


And by the way, that is the best argument yet.  Did they teach you in law school to use personal insults when all else fails? 

 



No.  But you are clearly not someone capable of arguing logically, so there isn't any point trying any harder.  Oh well.

 

And, you are also resorting to personal insults as a means of arguing, so, pot - meet kettle.

post #219 of 224



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

No.  But you are clearly not someone capable of arguing logically, so there isn't any point trying any harder.  Oh well.

 

And, you are also resorting to personal insults as a means of arguing, so, pot - meet kettle.



 


Edited by APToddlerMama - 8/31/11 at 8:22pm
post #220 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




 


 

 

But you WERE generalizing.  You were.  You were generalizing based on the fact that multiple MDC mama's have been able to save even when very low income - but clearly if they have enough internet access to post lots then they have internet and clearly aren't among the poorest.  That's all I was pointing out. 

 

Can you please show me these "lots of posts" that I make only for the sake of arguing?  I think you just don't like being argued with, and I still think you're rude and I'm glad I don't know you IRL.
 

 

Or they could be close to the library...
 

 

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