Success stories raising active bilingual children? - Page 2

[Diyabolo]

Originally Posted by mambera 

So after reading this thread, I've been experimenting with this kind of strategy for my 26 m/o in the past few days, and I realize I have some questions for anyone who cares to answer. :)

1) What do you do about communication that is not a request?  Most of the things DD says are statements about the world, like "It's a big cup!" or "Teddy is sleeping," or "Mama and (DD) are here, Papa is at work," or whatever.  Normally, I instinctively reflect that stuff back to her, always in my language regardless of the language she used to say it.  Am I supposed to be ignoring these statements if she doesn't say them in my language?  I notice this strategy decreases her overall exposure to my language because I don't talk to her as much when I stop reflecting half of the things she says (and also she doesn't get to hear how those things are said in my language).

2) What about code-switching?  Do I ignore the whole sentence if a couple of the words are in the 'wrong' language?  What if half of them are?  Etc.

3) What should I do when she uses DH's language?  We want to reinforce that one also, my grasp of  it isn't enough for me to feel comfortable speaking it back to her but I definitely understand everything she says in it.  Do you think I should insist that she speak only my language to me or is either non-community language OK?

TIA for your input!

Those are really great questions. I am eager to her others' input, but here's my experience. So far, DD has been talking to me 99% in Arabic. When she says a word that she only knows in English, I get excited with her and then tell her what it's called in Arabic. After a few times, I say: "What's that in Arabic please"? And then after that she uses the Arabic. The one time where she refused, as I described above, was a request, so I just ignored it and DH responded to her.

DD does do some code-switching, but honestly, I code-switch when I talk to my English speaking Arab family members and friends too :) In those cases where she code-switches, I just reflect the sentence back fully in Arabic.

I can't help you with personal experience with question 3 because we're not in a trilingual environment which I am sure is a much bigger challenge. But if you wanted my advice I would reinforce your minority language while DH reinforces his.

Thanks!

[FischK]

Originally Posted by mambera 

So after reading this thread, I've been experimenting with this kind of strategy for my 26 m/o in the past few days, and I realize I have some questions for anyone who cares to answer. :)

1) What do you do about communication that is not a request?  Most of the things DD says are statements about the world, like "It's a big cup!" or "Teddy is sleeping," or "Mama and (DD) are here, Papa is at work," or whatever.  Normally, I instinctively reflect that stuff back to her, always in my language regardless of the language she used to say it.  Am I supposed to be ignoring these statements if she doesn't say them in my language?  I notice this strategy decreases her overall exposure to my language because I don't talk to her as much when I stop reflecting half of the things she says (and also she doesn't get to hear how those things are said in my language).

2) What about code-switching?  Do I ignore the whole sentence if a couple of the words are in the 'wrong' language?  What if half of them are?  Etc.

3) What should I do when she uses DH's language?  We want to reinforce that one also, my grasp of  it isn't enough for me to feel comfortable speaking it back to her but I definitely understand everything she says in it.  Do you think I should insist that she speak only my language to me or is either non-community language OK?

TIA for your input!

With DS1 (27 mos), I only ask him to repeat if he's telling me something and if he can't do it in the home language I help him out with the correct words. If he's talking to himself, which he does all the time now, I let him speak whatever he wants, and that is also when he's most likely to code-switch; however, I want him to experiment with language independently, and while I would prefer him to think in his home language, I don't think we're quite there yet, and I'm also not sure if that might go to far. 

The only repeated phrase that he uses in English instead of German is "Thank you." He knows the German word, but he doesn't use it unless prompted ("What did you say?", "How do we say that at home?"). I believe it is because his daycare does not take it too kindly if he does not say "Thank you" and they do not accept the German form instead. We had the same problem with "please" a couple of months ago, and he finally began being consistent in using the German word instead.

COncerning your third question, I'm sure there are people who have experience with trilingualism. I would think that you should keep very clear boundaries between the languages and expect your daughter to speak to you in your language even if you can understand what she says. I believe that kids will eventually get the idea that there are different languages for different people and that they can only get what they want - and if it is to get a point across - if they speak in the right language.

[Eclipsepearl]

1) What do you do about communication that is not a request?  Most of the things DD says are statements about the world, like "It's a big cup!" or "Teddy is sleeping," or "Mama and (DD) are here, Papa is at work," or whatever.  Normally, I instinctively reflect that stuff back to her, always in my language regardless of the language she used to say it.  Am I supposed to be ignoring these statements if she doesn't say them in my language?  I notice this strategy decreases her overall exposure to my language because I don't talk to her as much when I stop reflecting half of the things she says (and also she doesn't get to hear how those things are said in my language).

Just keep doing that. Is she says it in the "wrong" language, say "Yes it IS a ball". It might be her way of asking what it is in your language. She just needs to be shown which language is to be used when.

2) What about code-switching?  Do I ignore the whole sentence if a couple of the words are in the 'wrong' language?  What if half of them are?  Etc.

Same as above. Repeat the sentence correctly and say it back to her. This is exactly what you would do in only one language with a child anyway.

3) What should I do when she uses DH's language?  We want to reinforce that one also, my grasp of  it isn't enough for me to feel comfortable speaking it back to her but I definitely understand everything she says in it.  Do you think I should insist that she speak only my language to me or is either non-community language OK?

Let your dh reinforce his language himself. Your relationship with your dd is in your language, not his. This also might be her way of asking what it is in your language so if you just repeat back to her in her father's language, she'll think that's what it is in yours'. Confusing! She needs to separate her languages and mixing them up with her will only muddle her up.

My kids quickly learned that when they didn't know an English word, to try to say the French one with an American accent. It often worked but let her figure this game out herself!

Please note that in some families, they do go back and forth but that's usually once the children speak both/all the languages with confidence.  

[JuniperBCN]

Originally Posted by Diyabolo 

I completely agree! So let me change the direction of the thread for a second and ask everyone's advice on how to implement this. There is the one extreme: not answer when she addresses me in English and insist that she speak to me in Arabic. I have read that this, while effective, can be damaging to the child who might feel frustrated and stifled. On the other end is translating what she says into Arabic and asking her if that's what she means. And of course there are other ways. 

What do you all think is the best way to get DD to speak in Arabic to me? What has worked for you or others you know?

Thanks so much!

English is my language and our minority language.  I can't imagine pretending to my kids that I don't understand when they address me in Catalan or Spanish.... they are just acquiring language, why would I thwart them?  I have consistently parroted back what they say in English while following through on their request/observation/question.  They (ages 5 and 2) are both highly verbal in all their languages and have never been required to use any particular one.  They both choose to almost use English exclusively to communicate with me.  They have spent very little time in the US but have had extensive visits with US relatives who have been here and do most of their screen time in English.

One observation is that they tend to speak a sort of Cat-angles to my husband who doesn't bother to feed them back the correct words in Catalan. They are a bit lazy using a pure Catalanwith him, which initially worried me, but I've observed that they "click in" with the rest of the world which surrounds them because their mix doesn't work.  I would be careful about this with minority languages and if we were living in an English speaking region, would really push DH to self correct.

[mambera]

I'm coming back to this thread for a little more discussion about the approach of responding preferentially to one language.

I have been trying to do this with my 2 y/o for nearly a month now, and I find it is much much more difficult than I expected.

The problem is that I realize I actually do not register very well which language she is speaking.  I am more naturally focused on the content of her speech and the tone of the delivery, and I have to think very specifically about the language issue in order to register that information.  By the time I've reminded myself to think about whether she asked in my language or not, I've usually already responded.

I thought this would go away in a few days but it really hasn't changed at all.  Is this something others have encountered, or do you find it is usually obvious to you which language you/others are speaking?  Is it something I can expect to get used to over a longer span of time?  Is there any kind of method or trick to bringing the language issue to the forefront of my own consciousness?

[Diyabolo]

Originally Posted by mambera 

I'm coming back to this thread for a little more discussion about the approach of responding preferentially to one language.

I have been trying to do this with my 2 y/o for nearly a month now, and I find it is much much more difficult than I expected.

The problem is that I realize I actually do not register very well which language she is speaking.  I am more naturally focused on the content of her speech and the tone of the delivery, and I have to think very specifically about the language issue in order to register that information.  By the time I've reminded myself to think about whether she asked in my language or not, I've usually already responded.

I thought this would go away in a few days but it really hasn't changed at all.  Is this something others have encountered, or do you find it is usually obvious to you which language you/others are speaking?  Is it something I can expect to get used to over a longer span of time?  Is there any kind of method or trick to bringing the language issue to the forefront of my own consciousness?

That's a dilemma! In my case, English and Arabic are SO different, so it immediately registers that DD is speaking in English rather than Arabic. DD immediately senses my knee-jerk physical reaction (my face probably tenses up poor thing) and she immediately switches to Arabic.  Of course it helps that at 27 months old, DD is not making statements deep enough in content which I have to focus on to the exclusion of language. I am sure this might change as she grows up and begins talking about more abstract things.

I guess I would recommend taking your time in responding while the language registers.

By the way, DD started preschool a couple of days ago. So far so good. Her preschool is on board with nurturing her Arabic (by using some Arabic words with her and trying to learn some of the words she uses).  Wish us luck!

[Eclipsepearl]

Originally Posted by mambera 

I'm coming back to this thread for a little more discussion about the approach of responding preferentially to one language.

I have been trying to do this with my 2 y/o for nearly a month now, and I find it is much much more difficult than I expected.

The problem is that I realize I actually do not register very well which language she is speaking.  I am more naturally focused on the content of her speech and the tone of the delivery, and I have to think very specifically about the language issue in order to register that information.  By the time I've reminded myself to think about whether she asked in my language or not, I've usually already responded.

I thought this would go away in a few days but it really hasn't changed at all.  Is this something others have encountered, or do you find it is usually obvious to you which language you/others are speaking?  Is it something I can expect to get used to over a longer span of time?  Is there any kind of method or trick to bringing the language issue to the forefront of my own consciousness?

Just wondering, is she speaking to you in your language at all? 

[mambera]

Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl 

Just wondering, is she speaking to you in your language at all?

Yes.  I would say she uses about 50% my language, 25% English and 25% DH's language when she speaks to me.  She almost never uses it with anyone else though because she knows that nobody but Mama is going to understand.  She is pretty good at figuring out which language to use with whom, although she does try to use DH's language with English speakers a fair amount because there are a lot more people in her life who speak it to her (SIL and her kids who are local, as well as one of her preschool teachers) so she has the idea that it is a more generally useful language.

And I am actually amazed that she is getting a lot of the grammar down - I posted a while ago about issues with person and gender - she is getting much better about using the correct person (I/you) and is starting to get a clue about gender as well.  I'm not even sure how she did it since I am functionally the only person who ever speaks to her in this language (occasionally she gets it from my dad and a friend of mine but the opportunities are limited).  She had an enormous, grammatically correct tantrum in my language yesterday and I was about as happy about the language development as I was irritated about the tantrum, lol.

[umsami]

Just keep speaking to her in Arabic--whether she speaks to you or not.  You can always say that you don't understand, but I'd probably wait until she was a bit older for that.

Do you live near a large Arabic-speaking community? It's rare, but in some areas (Dearborn, Brooklyn, ???) you can find Arabic-speaking schools.

Noorart.com is a great resource for Arabic-language books.  You can even buy a bunch of Scholastic readers in Arabic.  Of course, Amazon carries some as well.  Some libraries do too (surprisingly).  Youtube is a godsend. 

[Diyabolo]

Hi all,

I've got an update and seeking some advice.

DD has been going to pre-school for 3 weeks now. Her English has improved considerably, but her Arabic has too (probably because I have redoubled my already herculean efforts in the language department :)

Anyway, there's been an interesting shift in her language use. Arabic used to be DD's dominant language. She spoke it with everybody, even people who do NOT speak Arabic. Now, she seems to be using mostly English with those people she used to speak to in Arabic before. For example, MIL knows some of the the Arabic words DD used, so when DD said "mai" to MIL, MIL knew DD meant "water." Now DD is speaking almost exclusively in English to MIL. She continues to speak both with DH though now she seems to be using more and more English with him; remember, he uses both with her. She continues to speak to me only in Arabic.  In fact, today she said something to me in Arabic and then translated it in English to MIL who was on Skype.  Is this shift a good thing you think? I am sad that Arabic is not her dominant go-to language anymore, but I guess it's a positive move that she is sorting things out? Should I be worried that she will stop speaking Arabic to me if English becomes her sole language with others? Did any of you experience a similar shift in your children's language use as they grew up?

I hope these questions make sense.

Edited by Diyabolo - 9/25/11 at 2:50pm

[Eclipsepearl]

This is a good example of the stuff that happens with more than one language under the same roof. 

For awhile, my two older ones would speak to each other in French and switch to English with the baby. She was still stronger in English but as soon as she started daycare, big shift! She'd then get mad at her siblings for doing this, which they continued for awhile...

All my children are way more dominate in French than English. Their dad does not speak English and I spoke French and lived in France before meeting him. The very thought of speaking to me in French is completely amusing to them. 

What's important is not which language is better, or what they prefer, or really anything. Once you have established a relationship with a child in one language, it's tough to switch. It'll be that language they use with you. We don't even think about it anymore.  As toddlers, sometimes they try using the other language. Some parents throw up their hands and go on about "forcing" a child to speak something. I did no. such. thing. I simply was more responsive and encouraging of the English. 

If you hesitate, or are slower in English than Arabic, she'll get the message, without having to force her to speak anything. 

What you have to do is stand back and look at the Big Picture. Mine isn't very good. My kids lead a very French-dominated life. The vast majority of their English comes from me. Try to get all native Arabic speakers to use Arabic with her. Take advantage if you have a better, balanced language field. 

Which language would your dh like to speak to your dd later on? It's a good habit to start now. Later on, it's tough to switch and you see the child conversing with the heavy-accented parent... That was my fear. 

[Diyabolo]

Hey all,

When can one truly say that they have a bilingual child? In other words, when can I stop fretting that DD is going to wake up one day and decide that she doesn't want to speak in Arabic any more? When is a child well and truly established in the linguistic relationship with the parent such that it is permanent? I ask because, while this has significantly decreased as DD continues to speak and progress in Arabic, I am still always worrying about the possibility of her becoming a passive bilingual.  I suspect that the answer is somewhere in the teens, but I was wondering if you all had any different experiences. Really, I just want to relax . And please don't tell me to just relax :)

Thanks!

[DariusMom]

My son is almost 9, so we still have a ways to go (!), but I think he's pretty bilingual and will stay that way . . . We are looking into a bilingual secondary education for him to keep the English strong and improve it (especially with reading and writing) but he's still a good few years away from that decision.

At any rate, I won't tell you to just relax! In fact, I believe that it is constant vigilance that has helped keep my son doing as well in English (non-majority language) as he is.

What I do think you should be prepared for are times when one language is much stronger than the other. Vocabulary in one language may take off while the other language's vocabulary may stagnate. Children can forget words in the non-majority language. Your DD may even have an accent in the non-majority language (my DS does). The languages won't always be "equal." Your DD can speak fluently but not read or write yet (especially in a language like arabic!). In our case, we're not teaching DS to read and write in English. He's dyslexic and has to work hard enough in his other language on these skills. He can pick out lots of words in English on his own and we'll just let the rest come. This is obviously a special case due to special needs, but it may well be that your DD will not read or write in Arabic nearly as well as someone of her age who is growing up in an Arabic-speaking country.

What I have seen parents do (myself included) is completely freak out if one aspect of their child's non-majority language is lagging and then make it a power struggle and an issue of *their* identity. It's hard. I'm raising a child in a country not my own and, while his English is good, he has an accent, can't read in it very well, can't write in it very well. This, coupled with the fact that he's not really American (despite the passport!) in the way I am or a child growing up in America is, can upset me. When he makes a mistake in English or forgets a word in English, it can assume far more significance than it deserves. I've seen this with other foreign parents as well. Don't conflate your problems of identity, alienation, or ambivalence about being in a foreign country or raising a child in a foreign country with a linguistic issue.

Basically, all this to say that you can (and will!) raise a bilingual daughter, but it may not always go evenly. And when it's not going evenly (as in, her Arabic is not as good as her English), the main thing is to think if there's something you can adjust or change to help her, but also know when to pick your battles. Is it worth it to insist that your DD speak Arabic with you? IMHO, YES! Is it it worth it to make a 7 year old who has been in school all day sit down after school and learn to write in Arabic? Maybe, maybe not. . . Those are the cost/benefit evaluations that you have to make as a parent.

[IsaFrench]

thanks for writing all that... about  cost/benefice ...

i definitely need to take that into account these days ... my son is 10, and only 6 months away from sitting for an exam that could make him accepted on a 4 years program with 9 hours of schooling in english per week (instead of 3 at beginners level- learning the language)

it seems "natural" in my culture to make him swot for that exam ...

not easy for me to relax about it ...

especially since that program is not quite 100% what I would wish it would be (my 12 years old is on her second year within it)

but on the other hand, I would't have to homeschool in english on top of the local other language school

(when english is not my mother tongue but the other language is ... since DH works too long hours to be able to have much imput in english - besides not being at ease at all or in the same frame of mind about homework, schoolwork etc ....even when we lived in the US and the guidelines for homework were in english !)

eldest child was able to retain L1 when she really learned L2 at age 6 (same time as she learned to read, in L2 in fact, before learning to read in L1, at home, 6 months later, since we were not living in the country of L1 at that time)

second child (my 10 years old) took ages accepting to learn L2, but then only spoke L2 for 3 years, with an american accent (Dad is British, eldest daughter's accent was not so pronounced) and TOTALLY forgot L1, in the process.

It took him a good 6 months to start speaking L1 again (re-learling it litterally !) once back in the country, with speech therapy thrown in for some pronouciation issues too ...

since it was my mother tongue and I totally freaked out about its apparent loss, I didn't keep up much with homeschooling in L2 with that child (but with eldest child, yes, who easily passed the entrance exam for the special program ..)

so second child seemed to totally forget L2 (which he had spoken exclusively for 3 years = I was SO surprised about that)

and now speaks it definitely with a foreign accent and not so willingly

he's willing to be homeschooled for english (on top of "regular" school work), by me, it's not my mother tongue

and I'm not so wonderfully creative about learning as I saw some people be in the US

= not sure at all he'll be accepted in the special program next school year

(+ we don't really know what kind of crieterion they use for admitance, they are VERY not communicating about it !)

need to go,

it's good to put it all in writing and read about other parents dealing with similar issues ....

[Eclipsepearl]

For the first two, just repeat it back correctly in your language. "Yes, that's a TEDDY BEAR" so she hears what it is supposed to be. 

Do I ignore the whole sentence if a couple of the words are in the 'wrong' language?

No need to ignore. Again, repeat it back with the correct words in your language.

She may be "asking" you how to say it in your language. Once my dd kept repeating the French word for birds while looking at some pigeons. I was getting a little annoyed and finally said "Yes BIRDS" and she smiled, and started saying "Birds! Birds!"

Do you think I should insist that she speak only my language to me or is either non-community language OK?

Again, don't "insist" on anything. She's only 26 months and two of mine weren't talking at all at that age. She's already ahead of this game and dealing with three languages (not two, like mine). You are still establishing your relationship in your language. You're going to understand what you understand and repeat back to her correctly in your language. "Did you want orange juice?" If you don't understand, you don't understand. One of mine was a big babbler and I didn't understand a lot, even older than your dd. It's no sin to let her know that you didn't understand, no matter what language she was trying to use.

Don't get too much into getting her to say it clearly, correctly and in the right language. Sometimes it's better to back them up and get their story straight. "Did you want something to eat or drink?" I found that getting mine to gesture worked better. They could point, I understood and that gave me the opportunity to supply the English word for the object. Toddlers can get really frustrated when they're not being understood and backing up and encouraging gesturing kind of reboots them and gets them to find another track towards communicating. 

You'll have people who are against this who will say that parents should force their children to say the word and not let them gesture. I was accused of this "You're helping him too much!" I really think this is unnecessary frustration for the child. Also, it might be better for a monolingual child who is just being "lazy" or whatever but our children have more to figure out at an earlier age. I was happy to "help out"! Perhaps they would have spoken earlier/better but mine eventually did speak well, in both languages, without beating the dead horse... 

Remember to praise her when she uses your language. Go from the positive and avoid the negative. She's still separating her languages so it's very normal that things are getting a little mixed up. This is a normal stage but letting it slide will just prolong it. Some people continue to mix all their lives (my dh with his dialect and French, for example!) You need to stay consistent so that she can clearly hear how your language is used and get as much vocabulary into her as possible. 

Your relationship with your dd is more important than her linguistic abilities. Picture setting yourself as a good example of your language rather than "getting" her to speak it. A little girl wants to be like Mommy! She has a more complicated linguistic situation than most children so at this point you're guiding, not forcing her. Some parents do ignore their children and find other methods to promoting their language but these are more effective when they are sure their children are capable of speaking it but are being lazy or rebellious. Older children who are just not keeping with the program! But I found that once using English was normal and natural with us, my kids weren't tempted to speak French to me.