7 year old in kinship care with aunt and uncle - Page 2

[pumpkingirl71]

I am so sorry that your family is going through this.  You could be describing my daughter.  At times, it has felt like our family is falling apart.

Lots of other people have made good points.  I want to add a few. 

First, you are this little girl's best bet.  I am not saying that to make you feel guilty or even that you should keep her in your family.  But a family that is committed to her and can work toward healing is the best family for her.  Only you can judge if the obstacles in front of you are too great.  When you are parenting an attachment disordered kid, it feels like ANYONE could do a better job that you.  That is must be you.  But the problem is not you, it is the trauma your daughter has suffered.  Disrupted adoption is just one more trauma she would have to heal from.  Please don't fall into the trap of believing your daughter needs better parents than you. 

Second,   It is impossible for others to understand how hard it is to live with a child who is constantly defying you at every turn.  Please be gentle with yourself and your wife.  I wish others who posted had been more gentle.  I don't yell at my non traumatized children.  I try my hardest not to yell at my attachment disordered child.  But she pushes me in every way.  There are days that I snap, and I hate myself for it.  Please try not to let yourself fall into this trap, you are doing the best that you can and so is your wife.  BUT your family does need specialized help.

Third, read the Daniel Hughes book as soon as you can.  It is an easy read.  I am not sure it helped me be a better parent, but it made me feel sane.  I really felt insane before I read it. 

Sending you a hug and hope

[pumpkingirl71]

Two more things I forgot to add!

The fits of crying can be attachment related, could even be ADHD stuff....my daughter's overly emotional behavior and extreme attention seeking behavior improved ALOT when she was placed on meds for ADHD.

This describes our experience as well.  Having the ADHD in check has helped her be more in control of her emotions and less aggressive.

The other is the crazy talk.  Your daughter asks is it is day or night.  My daugher asks if we have eaten lunch yet as we clear the dishes off of the table. I think my daughter is partly not living in reality, but she loves to rub it in because she knows it makes us crazy.

Also wanted to add that I wrote a bit of the other post before reading your update from yesterday.  So some of what I said doesn't make sense anymore : )

Edited by pumpkingirl71 - 8/12/11 at 4:35pm

[lauren]

Jumping off what Pumpkingirl said, the mother in a home with a child that has attachment/trauma issues, usually takes the brunt of the child's anger and rage. The partner that is not with the child so much (often the dad), can often feel like the mom is overreacting, taking things out on the child. The child can often take advantage of this situation by being more compliant and cooperative with the dad, causing everyone to think the mother is crazy. Empathy for your partner is critical to the success of this situation. She has taken on the majority of the mothering of this child and she cannot now take all the blame for things going poorly. I agree with others that support from a skilled therapist that knows a great deal about attachment and trauma is essential. You may be able to find someone through the website: www.attach.org

[Kmack1]

We were pretty confident with knowing that she has reactive attachment disorder.. things started to go a little bit smoother.. less defiance, we no longer raised our voice.  I at least thought we had a pretty good idea of what we had on our hands.. then the child just falls to pieces and goes out of her way to annoy us, not listen, etc.  It took 3 hours to get her to bed last night.. the wife fed her some cereal before bed.. she is blaming that on her being out of control..

I did have a little moment with her.. but it seemed all for nothing.. this kid dont care bout nothing.. lives in the "second"   I wanted to acknowledge that I heard her call me Dad.. it just didn't click in at the time (not used to that!)  I asked her if she had called me Dad the day before.. and at first she didn't remember then she did.. and we were smiling and I said that's okay.. I just didn't hear you at first..  she was in bed.. I figured that this would have put her in a good enough mood to relax and fall asleep but after 5 mins she came out of her room demanding a back rub and to put a new tv show on.. (this was at 9:30)  we did that, put her back to bed.. 15 mins later she's whinning about something else.  then, we're out on the balcony, the child decides to scream out the balcony door at 10:15pm.. "auntie.. i want you to cover me" over and over and over and over again...  my wife completely ignores her.. so i had enough and went to bed.. my wife then goes inside.. screams her friggin head off at the kid.Wife carries on her business for antoher 45 mins while the kid is crying and screaming.. then my wife, screams at the top of her lungs at the kid..  we do this 3-4 times a week.. i dunno what else to even do at this point.  Childrens Aid Society giving us no support.  We have a Child Youth worker that shows up within weeks of the court dates.. but that's about it..

[lauren]

Possibly the fact that she is beginning to feel close enough to call you dad is causing an extreme fear reaction and causing regression (again). Could be the first time she's felt "close" to someone and is beginning to trust....? This feeling causes her to act out to get things 'back to normal' which is both of you angry, her feeling rejected, etc.

Dan Hughes also has a parenting book called Attachment Focused Parenting through Norton. It's available on Amazon.   Might be worth picking up.

http://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Focused-Parenting-Effective-Strategies-Professional/dp/0393705552

[queenjane]

With my daughter, it wouldnt be fear of being close that would cause her then to regress...her thinking would be more along the lines of "oh, he's happy i called him Dad. Great! He's in a really good mood now....so i'll get back up from bed. He's in such a good mood that he wont punish me. Maybe while i'm at it i'll ask for a movie....." It would just be more manipulation. Its why i pretty much stopped ever saying "yes" to a request of hers (such as to buy something in a store)...i told her i'd buy her something when i felt like it but her asking (that is, begging) would have no bearing on my decision to do so. You might want to look into Love and Logic for the bedtime battles. That way the emotional aspect can be taken out of it. My daughter started screaming when i told her she needed to hang up her clean clothes before going outside. I gave her the choice...she could stop screaming, put away her clothes, then go out to play, or continue screaming and miss outside time. That sort of thing USUALLY gets her to get ahold of herself but not always. Sometimes she ramps it up. But she knows...if she gives me trouble at bedtime, tomorrow's bedtime will be 1/2 earlier. Some other love and logic type techniques would be charging her for the time you have to spend dealing with her rather than time you would normally have to yourself, or telling her the next day you were so exhausted from having to deal with her tantrums the previous night, that you're too tired now to scrub the bathroom/wash dishes/whatever and so now thats her job.

Your wife needs to understand that every single time she loses control with your niece, your niece thinks she "wins"...she (the child) now has the power and control. At the same time, having a screaming raging caregiver also makes the child feel unsafe...and yet comfortable because it may be familiar to her. She may be provoking these rages from your wife as a way of recreating the drama in her birth family . Who knows. I do know that you are NOT ALONE...this same nighttime routine is repeated, unfortunately, with many parentings dealing with kids with this issue. Its really really hard.

If you could read some books by Dan Hughes and also Parenting the Hurt Child by Keck (i think thats the name) that should be helpful. Talk to other parents who have the same issue (goes a long way in feeling like you arent insane)....please get your wife to connect to some people online too. These kids often dole it out worse to the mother figure, so she is likely getting the brunt of it. She needs an attachment therapist or at least someone who will help you help her.

[MrsH]

Oh man, I just read through this thread and also am in the same boat as you.  Well, not the same, but close enough that I can completely relate.  My niece was 6 when she moved in with us, her brother 2.5.  Neither is diagnosed with attachment issues, though I'm pretty sure that he will be soon (only just started therapy a few months ago).  They're now 9 and 5, and both have lots and lots of the items on the RAD lists. 

I also yell at them far more than I'd like.  Your concern about worrying that you've added to her trauma and made this relationship unsalvagable is one that I often feel as well.  We just finalized their adoptions though, because our therapists (one for each child, and one for my husband and me, all at a place that specializes in working with complex blended families/touched by adoption/foster care) all keep telling us that we're making such great progress.  Sometimes it feels like we are, other days it doesn't at all. 

Someone said that to parent a kid with RAD, the parent has to have completely processed their own feelings of grief and neglect and all that.  While I agree that that would be swell, I do think that healing is possible.  I've been parenting for 3 years now and am finally coming to a better place .  Kids trigger everything, especially at this age and with trauma, they find every single trigger.  I'm not sure if it's possible for a person to be aware of all these triggers without having kids!  I've really relied on our therapists a LOT over the past 3 years, and join in others in highly recommending that. 

For a quickie read on discipline, that's worked well for us, read through the 1-2-3 Magic book.  The only thing I would caution you with, with both that method and others that are more "discipline-focused," is that your niece is unlikely to have learned some very fundamental lessons about behavior.  Many methods assume that the child already knows how to act, and has the skills to act appropriately, and is therefore willfully misbehaving.  While sometimes that's true, I think especially when parenting children who joined us later, we simply don't know what they've learned so far.  Much of it is probably wildly inappropriate.  So we do add in a lot of teaching, a lot of talking, a lot of reading books together and talking about the character, etc. 

Has anyone talked with you and your wife about parenting the child to whatever age they're behaving, rather than their chronological age?  My daughter (niece by birth) can go from acting like an 11 or 12 year old, helping care for my friends' toddlers, playing with them, leading play with large groups of kids, reading stories to siblings, etc.  But then she can suddenly get triggered (having "big feelings" we call it) and be lying on the couch, sucking her thumb, kicking her legs and wailing like a 3 year old.  In those moments, we treat her like a 3-year old. We scoop her up, we hold her, empathize with her, then give her some space to re-center (which has been a huge job for her in therapy).  Yes, sometimes it's "just" for attention.  Is it so bad that she wants my attention?  We try really hard to distinguish between behaviors that are intentional and need to end (whining is a biggie!), and regressions that are a result of her being flooded and unable to cope.  I've realized that a lot of my own triggers are around control and grief, and I'm working really hard to deal with my own moments of being flooded, by taking breaks (both in the moment and in a more proactive way). 

Lastly, I really hope you and your wife can find a way to come together.  If it wasn't for my husband's unconditional support and faith in me (and our joint faith in God, I must add!) I wouldn't have made it through the past 3 years.  We're currently in a really tough spot with them, but I'm starting to see the light.  I'm finally able to believe that their placement with us is indeed the best for them, even on the days that I yell and get mad and don't handle myself in the ways I know they need.  We're finally in a place where most days they know I love them, and I know they love me. 

Like others have said, only you and your wife can make the decision of whether you want to commit to parenting her niece, knowing what you know now and what ou're learning.  None of us know what we'll get when we start parenting someone, there are no guarantees, but I think that by following our own paths to healing and wholeness, we can make a significant impact on the children we parent.  And I say that with all the empathy and love and acknowledgment of how much it sucks to go through that process. 

[Kmack1]

Hey All,

Thanks for all the great responses!  I feel a bit odd posting on a Mother forum here, with just women, but so far I think it may have been the most help for me.  Thank you for that.  :)

We seen the therapist last Wednesday night, been on vacation since!, and I couldn't have done a better job myself at explaining the situation we're in than she did last night. I could never put my finger on it, but something didn't quite seem right with our situation.  She explained that my wife has put so much pressure on herself to succeed in this placement, that it's triggering her anxiety to sky rocket.  The therapist also seemed to think that my wife has some sort of obsession with the child.  I always told my wife she was her princess and teased her about it, but now I actually get it.  I do understand much more now why my wife gets so frustrated and aggravated.  I doubt she's been like that more than a handful of times, in all of our years prior to getting the child.  It's more like a daily occurrence now.

She also noted that there is a good chance, that the situation with us may not be right for the child and it just might be better for her to go to a foster home.  We could still see her and maybe down the road, give it another try.  My wife was really against this idea and the therapist could see it.  So, we decided to give it a 3 month trial and see where we are at the end of it.  This way, at least for me, there isn't the constant thinking in the back of my mind that it could be over with 1 phone call and just waiting for some sort of catastrophe to happen that would push me over the edge.  I always seem to think under the lines of, well if this happens, then that is the end.  (i.e. if the child breaks the window when she is having a tantrum) 

[kayleesmom]

glad to see that therapist was able to help you a bit good luck. keep us posted.

[RedOakMomma]

Originally Posted by Kmack1 

 It also got me to thinking, that my wife might actually have borderline personality disorder.  She was adopted when she was 3-4 years old, and shows some signs here and there.  (pissed at you one minute and everything is fine in the next)   I haven't exactly decided yet, if this is a good thing or a bad thing, for our situation.

Be careful with this.  It can be very, VERY easy to diagnose loved ones with personality disorders and very VERY damaging to relationships to think or act that it's true.  My husband and I have dealt with this, and it's really messy.  Our therapist, after dismissing the idea of either of us having personality disorders, put it this way...if you look at a list of traits in personality disorders, every single person is going to fit in the spectrum of at least one disorder.  It's a matter of degree.  Having one or two characteristics, even sometimes pronounced, doesn't mean you're personality disordered.  It means you're a flawed human like the rest of us.

It may be something to discuss with your wife, but please be gentle and please leave lots of room for doubt (and professional opinion)!  Too often I've seen husbands accuse their wives of having personality disorders....it's incredibly hurtful, and hard to dis"prove," too....because if a husband/partner thinks they're the sane one telling the "disordered" one what's going on with them, then they're denying their wife equal footing in the discussion.  One partner gets to be sane, one has to disprove being insane.  It's hurtful and it's a recipe for marital disaster.

[Kmack1]

Yah I do get what you mean there, and it definitely got me to thinking.  I guess I just thought that since she went through a similar thing (adopted young, her mom died early) and her foster mother was tough on her.  Even now I see things like, where her mother will introduce her daughter to friends of the family, but not even mention my wife, even though she is standing next to her.  For me, I wouldn't made the biggest scene in the world, but my wife lets it go by because she is used to this sort of behavior from her foster mom.  It can't be easy to deal with and we could all say what we would do in the situation, but you just don't know.  Other times, she'll be really mad at me and then an hour goes by and everything is fine, even though nothing had been discussed.

We've been going to therapy for the past couple weeks, the therapist has been playing games with us, in an attempt to build an attachment.  We played "go fish" and everytime you picked up a card, there was another card to read with life experiences to share.  Some where you told sometime when you were bad and what your punishment was, or others where you just did a great job and deserve praise, etc.  Kinda seemed cool, but I think it all goes out the window when it comes to her wanting something, knowing if she screams loud enough and long enough, my wife will give in.  The other game, we played last week was "Sorry"  so if you knocked someone off the course, you would say sorry for something that you've done in the past that may have upset the other person.  I think our niece has the idea that if she says sorry, anything she had done is better now.

One thing, maybe someone could help me with understanding..  Every time our niece goes to her grandmother's for even 1 night, she comes back so defiant and stubborn, I'm ready to blow a gasket.   Last night I had to pick her up and carry her to room because she wouldn't move.  Told her 3 times, let's go to bed.. she wouldn't move.. i counted to 3, walked towards her room, tried to hold her hand to go with her.. wasn't happening without my carrying her.   Other times, we'll meet her grandma to pick her up, and she's barely in the car before she'll start yelling at my wife that she doesn't like this or hates her, or crying for something she was already told no for.. the list goes on.  I'd absolutely love to tell her grandmother that she's no longer allowed to stay over there, but we really need the break sometimes and there's nobody else to watch her. 

[Polliwog]

Originally Posted by Kmack1 
Other times, she'll be really mad at me and then an hour goes by and everything is fine, even though nothing had been discussed.

That's how my brain works (I've got diagnosed ADHD) and I don't have a personality or attachment challenges.

 I think our niece has the idea that if she says sorry, anything she had done is better now.

I don't discount other things that are going on, but that's also part of being seven.

One thing, maybe someone could help me with understanding..  Every time our niece goes to her grandmother's for even 1 night, she comes back so defiant and stubborn, I'm ready to blow a gasket.   Last night I had to pick her up and carry her to room because she wouldn't move.  Told her 3 times, let's go to bed.. she wouldn't move.. i counted to 3, walked towards her room, tried to hold her hand to go with her.. wasn't happening without my carrying her.   Other times, we'll meet her grandma to pick her up, and she's barely in the car before she'll start yelling at my wife that she doesn't like this or hates her, or crying for something she was already told no for.. the list goes on.  I'd absolutely love to tell her grandmother that she's no longer allowed to stay over there, but we really need the break sometimes and there's nobody else to watch her. 

That happens with my DS (also seven and adopted) when he comes back from a sleepover at his younger sister's house. They have such a great time together, don't get as much sleep as they would at home, and then he falls apart afterward. I remember my sister doing the same thing.

[lauren]

It must churn up so much emotion for her to go to her grandmother's home. All the loss, all the grief, all the mixed up feelings about her family. I wonder what it would be like to give her a lot of empathy for that when she returns, rather than expecting her to shift right into gear? Imagine if when you visited family it brought happiness but also intense pain....sort of like going to a funeral--you're happy to see loved ones, but really sad at the same time? You might be really off center for a couple of days afterwards and it might take you a while to get your groove back.

As well, any sleepover for some kids seems to churn up some dys-regulation--they don't sleep as well perhaps or it's just a different routine. What would it be like to take this into account and prepare ahead of time for her to re-enter with your support?

[MrsH]

I'm so glad you are all seeking the support you need.  This is really hard stuff and I can't imagine anyone who could do it alone.

Our daughter also has a lot of "but I said sorry..." moments, as though that makes anything she did prior to the "sorry" acceptable.  We've started having her make repairs to help her better begin to understand the consequences of her actions.  She hurts her sibling, and goes to get them an ice-pack or bandaid.  She throws a major tantrum, after she's calmed down she "repays" us energy by either drawing a picture, writing a note, or spending some special time with the parent she screamed at (purportedly as a favor to the parent: "I'm feeling tired from being yelled at, I think I'd like to play some uno.")  If something is broken she helps repair or replace it.  If I didn't get to cook dinner/do laundry/unload the dishwasher she helps with that task.  The idea is that it's something to do together that repairs either the physical or more emotional side of things that happened.  It might be worth looking into for you and your family.  It's been very helpful around here.  The key is that it's not a punishment in any way, it's a way to repair the damage that was done by her behavior.  What we're learning is that our daughter hates when she regresses to a 2 or 3 year old, she feels embarrassed after, and she wants to make things right but feels so awful and has learned no skills for how to address the situation.  It's become a lot easier for us to have empathy for her now, knowing that we as a family are able to repair it. 

As for the sleep-overs, I'm not surprised at all.  Some things that help us with transitions after either longer times away from us or anytime a birthparent visits (every few weeks around here!), is to have a very clear plan with the child about what we'll do when she returns: "you'll get back, say hello to us, and say goodbye to your mom.  Then we'll all go inside and watch a movie together.  Do you want cheese and crackers or chips and bean dip while watching the movie?" When our kids are out with their birthmom we've also realized that they often don't eat very well.  Lunch is usually fast food, and snacks usually sweets.  Drinks are whatever soda the grown-ups are drinking.  Or they just snack on junkfood and don't ever eat an actual meal.  Serving some whole grains, fruit, veggies, and/or protein has helped.  I'm not going to lie though, it's still a tough transition much of the time. 

[Kmack1]

Been a while since an update, but finally a couple weeks ago we had a real Doctor do a full diagnosis on the niece.  We did discover she has a learning disability and ADHD.  

On a sad note, I've left home (it's been a week) because I can't deal with the yelling everyday, waking up to them screaming, the dog barking every morning.  Also, the children society will find a new home for the niece, hopefully with medication things will go well.  W wants to stay in contact with N regularly, while continuing to live with me. I asked her to check with the Dr. if that is going to be a good idea or not to continue a relationship with N.  I think that's a big move, I did say that I would not be upset if she decided to live her life with the niece, but she insisted on saving our marriage.   

On a side note, I am starting to think that I just might have ADHD as well.  As I do more reading on it, it a lot is making more sense! 

[Smithie]

I'm sorry that it came to that, Kmack, but glad that you asserted yourself about not willing to continue in the unhealthy situation. It's not like you were the only one who noticed that the placement wasn't going well. 

I'd suggest coming to an agreement with your wife about a "moratorium" on visits with N for a certain period - a month? - and then a trial visit. You two need to heal yourselves and your marriage before you can be the kind of rock-steady Aunt and Uncle figures that this child needs. I think it makes sense to back off initially, and then ease back into it and see if there's a place for you in her new life with her foster family.