or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Do you think there is common ground in vax discussion? Effective communication 101.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Do you think there is common ground in vax discussion? Effective communication 101. - Page 3

post #41 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post



I slow vax and select vax and when I stick a toe into these forums suddenly folks tell me how awful I am that I vax at all.
 


 

 

These threads get so heated that people on both sides do not always behave in ways they should.   It doesn't really serve much good.   

 

post #42 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by no5no5 View Post

 

If I had to pick something that bugs me, it'd be the "scare tactics" argument.  Clearly both pro-vaxers and anti-vaxers weigh what they perceive to be the risks and choose accordingly.  So I don't think it's fair to say that pro-vaxers are using scare tactics when they talk about the risks of VPDs any more than I think it makes sense to hurl that accusation at anti-vaxers when they talk about the risks of vaccines.  Likewise, I've seen a double standard wherein accounts of children being hurt by VPDs are met with hostility, whereas accounts of children being hurt by vaccines are welcomed.  I think both or neither (and I don't particularly care which) should be welcome here. 


My least favorite is when a poster gets mad b/c of all the scare tactics used to promote vax (usually after visiting a ped, or ER or some such seeking of medical treatment or attention), and then uses scare tactics in that same thread to dissuade other parents against vaccination.  It's very irritating - both sides of this argument can, and do, use scare tactics. 

 

One side sometimes says, "But if you don't get the vax your children will be at a much higher risk of getting measles, and people can DIE of that disease!"

 

The other side will say something like, "If your children get vaxed they can, and often do, suffer from vaccine injuries!  Vax injuries are 100% preventable!!"

 

Scare tactics, both ways.

 

I posted once on the parenting board, in someone elses thread, about a situation when my son was hospitalized for having febrile seizures.  It had been well over a month since he was vaxed, but I got a PM from a non-vaxer telling me that his seizures were most likely caused by vaccines, and that if I continued to vax him he would be more likely to have other reactions.  It was pretty insulting, b/c quite honestly, that wasn't what caused his seizures.  And that poster wasn't in the hospital with my son, I was, and she was basically accusing me of causing his medical problems.  She ended the PM by saying something about how anti vax she is, and how much she hates them, and thinks no one should vax.

post #43 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post

Nope, not much common ground.

I slow vax and select vax and when I stick a toe into these forums suddenly folks tell me how awful I am that I vax at all.
You aren't in my marriage, you aren't in my life and you don't know me. Each vax has been researched and weighed carefully. Vaxes for my kids have been spread out and some have been dissed altogether. I don't want vaxes required by the government. I'm personally kinda live and let live on this issue.

This whole thing reminds me of the rapid LLL's telling people that any drop of formula you give your kid ruins their "virgin gut". I was able to successfully breastfeed my kids till nearly two but I have friends that didn't make it that far. Their kids don't look "poisoned" to me.


Yep, like we not "natural" enough for MDC if we vax.

 

 

post #44 of 146

 

Quote:
This whole thing reminds me of the rapid LLL's telling people that any drop of formula you give your kid ruins their "virgin gut". I was able to successfully breastfeed my kids till nearly two but I have friends that didn't make it that far. Their kids don't look "poisoned" to me

Not sure who your leader is, but that's not an official LLL position....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




My least favorite is when a poster gets mad b/c of all the scare tactics used to promote vax (usually after visiting a ped, or ER or some such seeking of medical treatment or attention), and then uses scare tactics in that same thread to dissuade other parents against vaccination.  It's very irritating - both sides of this argument can, and do, use scare tactics. 

 

One side sometimes says, "But if you don't get the vax your children will be at a much higher risk of getting measles, and people can DIE of that disease!"

 

The other side will say something like, "If your children get vaxed they can, and often do, suffer from vaccine injuries!  Vax injuries are 100% preventable!!"

 

Scare tactics, both ways.

 

Sorry you got harassed on a parenting board about your vax decisions.  I hear about that a lot, sadly.eyesroll.gif (Including someone else in this thread...)

 

I also TOTALLY agree on the fear-mongering.  To cite a converse example, I've read countless pieces about anti-vax "fear-mongering" and how big Papa Doctors can "put parents' fears to rest."  Then the piece goes right on to the fear-mongering---evil, awful VADs.  Hep B is out to get you.  Influenza will take your children in the night.  Chicken pox will surely kill you. 

 

I read an article a couple of years ago--in Kiwi magazine, I think--whose author stated that you shouldn't vaccinate out of fear, and you shouldn't NOT vaccinate out of fear.  Easier said than done, but I definitely agree. 

post #45 of 146
Quote:

Originally Posted by oaktreemama View Post

(on Hitler)

 

Meh-his ideas were simply a retread of nationalism and xenophobia that have existed in Europe for centuries. Hitler didn't market anything-he exploited people's basest desires and innate ability to seek out and blame a scapegoat for their problems.


But his marketing WAS good (eeven if the ideas in principle weren't that new). He did a lot of stuff that savvy politicians do today, e.g. he had people film him when he held speeches and analyzed them afterwards to see how effective they were. And he offered "interest groups" e.g. kids groups where they could do lots of fun activities like camping and singing, badges for achievments....and where he could have them indoctrinated(Hitlerjugend!). He had "ads" commissioned (e.g. some of the works of Leni Riefenstahl). That's pretty good modern marketing.

 

It was for a totally evil, corrupt cause, but it worked well.

 

post #46 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

 

I also TOTALLY agree on the fear-mongering.  To cite a converse example, I've read countless pieces about anti-vax "fear-mongering" and how big Papa Doctors can "put parents' fears to rest."  Then the piece goes right on to the fear-mongering---evil, awful VADs.  Hep B is out to get you.  Influenza will take your children in the night.  Chicken pox will surely kill you. 

 

I read an article a couple of years ago--in Kiwi magazine, I think--whose author stated that you shouldn't vaccinate out of fear, and you shouldn't NOT vaccinate out of fear.  Easier said than done, but I definitely agree. 

 

I think people need to talk about the information they have, which often means talking about the dangers of something.

 

But I also think that people need to present the info they have and a respectful, non-confrontational manner.

 

I try to add a lot of "I think", "I feel", "might", "maybe" etc. to my posts to mark that although something is my belief / position, it ISN'T written in stone when presented with contrary evidence and that it mainly applies to my area of experience.
 

 

post #47 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Sorry you got harassed on a parenting board about your vax decisions.  I hear about that a lot, sadly.eyesroll.gif (Including someone else in this thread...)



Thanks, it was actually right here in good ole MDC. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugs View Post


Yep, like we not "natural" enough for MDC if we vax.

 

 


Yeah, and are accused of not doing our research if we do vax, b/c you know - people who vax don't do their research they just follow the crowd.  And if we then reveal that we DID research, the response is inevitably, "but most people who vax don't do any research!  I know b/c whenever I talk to people about how dangerous vaxing is they look at me like I have 2 heads!"  I understand that would be very frustrating, but as a vaxer, I don't like to debate vax with people IRL, so I have occasionally resorted to looking at a person like they had 2 heads just so they would leave the issue alone.  Especially those who press the issue.

 

The other thing I really don't like, is when non-vaxers complain about any source that is used that doesn't fit the "crunchy" criteria.  And then are practically accused of being a member of the CDC or AAP if we give more credibility to their articles, research, or statements than we do to the "crunchy" or more naturally minded sources.

post #48 of 146

I'm starting to get the idea that this thread is turning into all of the things nonvaxers cannot say or do.  I am sitting here scratching my head over this.  Vaxers can go just about anywhere and get support from many, many others.  People who choose not to vaccinate cannot do that.  What is so wrong with having one main forum, MDC, for people who choose different lifestyles/paths than the majority to actually speak their minds and feelings on vaccinations without feeling ostracized like they would on the millions of mainstream sites out there? Now those who don't vaccinate are being told what they can and cannot say on MDC, one of the most natural-living websites out there?! Isn't that to be expected on a site that has a subheading of "I'm Not Vaccinating"?  Of course I support the fact of trying to find some middle ground, though I don't think it is going to happen, and it's not right that people are being harrassed via PM from both sides.  Also, I think some threads get out of hand and we should be able to discuss a topic like adults.

 

With that said, we have to put this into perspective and realize those who don't vaccinate don't get the support from the outside world as those that do vaccinate, selective or otherwise, and really don't have an outlet to speak their minds.  If those who vaccinate don't like it here at MDC (namely in the vaccine forum), there are tons of other places to go for support.  Where can nonvaxers go for support besides MDC? I don't know of anywhere else.

post #49 of 146


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugs View Post





I completely agree. Both the "I'm Not Vaccinating" and the "Selective & Delayed Vaccination" boards should be respected as safe places for like-minded posters, yet both boards are occasionally "hi-jacked" by dissenting opinions. 

 

 

It's important to make sure that people making such an important decision have all the facts. They're not going to get all the facts from rabid anti-vaxxers. Lies should not be allowed to stand no matter where they're posted. If your reasoning and logic are sound you shouldn't feel threatened by being asked to support them with facts. I know I don't - it's very easy to tell people that I vax because they work and because they're safe. And if you like I can give you half a dozen peer reviewed authoritative sources to support that assertion.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
Take the Germ theory of disease (ripped off by Pasteur)  for instance that believe that fixed species of microbes from an external source invade the body and are the first cause of infectious disease - case closed. There are alternatives points of view such as that the presence of germs does not constitute the presence of a disease. Bacteria are scavengers of nature. They reduce dead tissue to its smallest element. Germs or bacteria have no influence, whatsoever, on live cells. They are not the cause of the disease, any more than flies and maggots cause garbage. Flies and  maggots do not cause garbage but rather feed on it. So with viewpoints being so drastically different and creating different realities for people, Im not so sure a middle ground is possible and is why, quite often, these threads turn arguementative. Such is life.

 

Are you implying that Germ theory is debatable? It's not, you know, any more than gravity or thermodynamics are debatable. Trying to attach it makes as much sense as if we were discussing the safety of bungee jumping and you started claiming that gravity doesn't always pull you downward, because Issac Newton recanted on his deathbed.

post #50 of 146

Why should we be expected to go somewhere else when MDC does not have a stance against vaccination? There are separate boards for those who do not vaccinate, those who do vaccinate... and a main board for discussion; ie: sharing various viewpoints and ideas. I'm not interested in stepping into an echo chamber and having my choices supported; I prefer to challenge myself really examine the issue. MDC is one of the few places where we can have discussions with fellow posters who have actually researched, regardless of the conclusions they have come to.

 

 

Quote:
With that said, we have to put this into perspective and realize those who don't vaccinate don't get the support from the outside world as those that do vaccinate, selective or otherwise, and really don't have an outlet to speak their minds.  If those who vaccinate don't like it here at MDC (namely in the vaccine forum), there are tons of other places to go for support.  Where can nonvaxers go for support besides MDC? I don't know of anywhere else.

 

post #51 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post


 

 

It's important to make sure that people making such an important decision have all the facts. They're not going to get all the facts from rabid anti-vaxxers. Lies should not be allowed to stand no matter where they're posted. If your reasoning and logic are sound you shouldn't feel threatened by being asked to support them with facts. I know I don't - it's very easy to tell people that I vax because they work and because they're safe. And if you like I can give you half a dozen peer reviewed authoritative sources to support that assertion.
 

 

Are you implying that Germ theory is debatable? It's not, you know, any more than gravity or thermodynamics are debatable. Trying to attach it makes as much sense as if we were discussing the safety of bungee jumping and you started claiming that gravity doesn't always pull you downward, because Issac Newton recanted on his deathbed.



Bold underlines mine.

 

Genuine question:  Do you actually think non-vaxxers or even those on the fence are going to listen to any point you make when you use such inflammatory language?  

 

 

post #52 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post


 

 

It's important to make sure that people making such an important decision have all the facts. They're not going to get all the facts from rabid anti-vaxxers. Lies should not be allowed to stand no matter where they're posted. If your reasoning and logic are sound you shouldn't feel threatened by being asked to support them with facts. I know I don't - it's very easy to tell people that I vax because they work and because they're safe. And if you like I can give you half a dozen peer reviewed authoritative sources to support that assertion.
 

That is the purpose of the main Vaccination board. If someone only wants to get opinions from those who feel the same way, that's their prerogative, and there are separate boards to suit that endeavor.

post #53 of 146

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugs View Post

Why should we be expected to go somewhere else when MDC does not have a stance against vaccination? There are separate boards for those who do not vaccinate, those who do vaccinate... and a main board for discussion; ie: sharing various viewpoints and ideas. I'm not interested in stepping into an echo chamber and having my choices supported; I prefer to challenge myself really examine the issue. MDC is one of the few places where we can have discussions with fellow posters who have actually researched, regardless of the conclusions they have come to.

 


Maybe I didn't word it well enough.  I was just saying that I'm noticing from some of the posts above that it seems many of the things nonvaxers say on any vaccine forum here is offensive to some who vaccinate.  My point was that nonvaxers should not have to walk on egg shells here as this is a place for nonvaxers to come where they should feel more comfortable to speak their mind, not hushed.  It should be expected that people are going to have strong opinions and different views here, one way or the other, and people have to expect that when they sign on to MDC. 
 

 

post #54 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

I'm starting to get the idea that this thread is turning into all of the things nonvaxers cannot say or do.  I am sitting here scratching my head over this.  



It isn't just this thread.

 

I was thinking about this yesterday, and one of my main gripes is that non-vaxxers on MDC are always in a position of having to defend themselves.  

 

This is how it almost always works:

 

Someone who does not vax starts a thread.  Vaxxers come on and attack different aspects of it.  Thread end.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Check out the 1st page on the main vaxxing forum - almost all threads were started by non-vaxxers.  Vaxxers do not really start threads, they just attack other threads. 

Non-vaxxers are always defending themselves.

 

Maybe there is nothing we can do about it on the main vax page, but I do agree the not-vaccinating page should be kept  "pro-vax"  debate free.  It would be nice to have a discussion without having the thing sidelined by having to defend yourself all.the.time.  I have no issues with not starting a debate on the selective and delayed board. 

 

 

 


Edited by purslaine - 8/12/11 at 8:14am
post #55 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiningpearl View Post

thank you. 

One I would like to add: 

 

Your child will get the whole world sick and how can you live with yourself.

 

 

I do like to hear both sides of the story, and appreciate the research done by others, but the personal attacks need to go.

 

 

 

Also, this is the the vaccination forum, the "I am not vaccinating" forum is for people who have made the choice or are looking into not vaccinating.  If people who are pro vax want to lurk there, can't stop them, but it is not the place to try to convince others how wrong their beliefs and ideas are.  the "I'm not vaccinating" forum has guidelines posted at the top of the page.  http://www.mothering.com/community/wiki/not-vaccinating-forum-guidelines


I agree. Honestly, I've tried to stay out of the vax forum since Southern Sloth was banned. It all went downhill from there. It's no use even bothering with how rabid some people get about us non-vaxers "killing the world" or whatever. It's a shame, too, since this forum is the main thing that led to us stopping vaxing. I have a huge binder full of graphs and medical studies I give to people IRL to loan if they are interested, but it gets too heated and insane on here.

In fact, this forum is one of the reasons my ignore list is so long.
post #56 of 146

See, and as a vaxer I have the exact same complaint.  I am accused of poisoning my child, giving him toxins that can kill him, and making medical decisions for him that should be his to make - when he's an adult.  I have to constantly defend myself, and point out that I have done my research (as I'm often accused of not doing my research, b/c vaxers don't do their research according to most non-vaxers here), and defend my choices b/c not vaxing should be the "default."

 

At least there is a I'm Not Vaccinating forum that non-vaxers can use.  And while MDC does not have an "official" vax stance, the stance of the mods is mostly in support of not vaccinating, and god forbid you offend someone who doesn't vax.  Offending someone who does is perfectly acceptable - and allowed by the mods even when its egregious.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


I was thinking about this yesterday, and one of my main gripes is that non-vaxxers on MDC are always in a position of having to defend themselves.  

post #57 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post

 



Maybe I didn't word it well enough.  I was just saying that I'm noticing from some of the posts above that it seems many of the things nonvaxers say on any vaccine forum here is offensive to some who vaccinate.  My point was that nonvaxers should not have to walk on egg shells here as this is a place for nonvaxers to come where they should feel more comfortable to speak their mind, not hushed.  It should be expected that people are going to have strong opinions and different views here, one way or the other, and people have to expect that when they sign on to MDC. 
 

 


I agree. The only types of posts I find offensive are the ones that are nothing more than straw man arguments (on both sides). No one  feels comfortable having open discussions when they are being subtly mocked and drowned-out by preconceived notions.

 

 

post #58 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

See, and as a vaxer I have the exact same complaint.  I am accused of poisoning my child, giving him toxins that can kill him, and making medical decisions for him that should be his to make - when he's an adult. 

 

 



Huh.

 

I started a thread about a week ago where I suggested that maybe vaccinating or not-vaccinating  should be the child's decision to make when they are older and almost everybody (and most of the respondents were non-vaxxers) disagreed with me.

 

There are a couple of other things that people have posted that I have not noticed.

 

It does make me question (and this is talking in general, not just to you) if:

 

a) we are more likely to perceive things as slights if we disagree with the person in the first place or if they have a history of being difficult.

 

b) some of these things are not so common, but when they happen, they are sufficiently bad that they stay with us.  

 

It does make me wonder how and if it is possible to get past the hurt (which is what some of this comes down to).

 

 


Edited by purslaine - 8/12/11 at 10:26am
post #59 of 146

A bit defensive and have totally missed my point. That is ok - happens alot. Let me reiterate my point - perhaps more clearly. Any person trained in any medical profession allopathic or alternative has been indoctrinated (or perhaps a better word/phrase is taught, exposed to, imbued with knowledge) with a certain philosphy, point of view, training what have you. So OBVIOUSLY their realities and points of view are going to be very different which is WHY I feel there can be no common ground. I'm making no judgement on allopathic medicine or otherwise (although you seem to take issue with my choice of words which I guess I understand since indoctrinated hints at brainwashing and that is not what I'm saying at all - again perhaps a better word or phrase could have been used to illustrate my point). Im well aware of the hard work it takes to become an MD or an ND or a DC or a DO and don't feel one is better than the other. They are different that's all. You are the one placing judgement by calling homeopathy silly.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oaktreemama View Post

 

 

 

I don't visit this forum much because frankly it actually helped convince me that vaxing my kid was the right way to go and that horse has long since left the stable.

 

If you chose not to accept western medicine, or to dismiss that brand of expertise so be it. But don't be surprised when using words like indoctrination to describe the years of training and dedication it takes to be a doctor are not met with any respect on the other side. I am guessing you don't like it being said that alternative doctors are indoctrinated in unproven silliness like homeopathy.

 

 

 

Meh-his ideas were simply a retread of nationalism and xenophobia that have existed in Europe for centuries. Hitler didn't market anything-he exploited people's basest desires and innate ability to seek out and blame a scapegoat for their problems.



 


Edited by Marnica - 8/12/11 at 10:39am
post #60 of 146



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post


 

 

It's important to make sure that people making such an important decision have all the facts. They're not going to get all the facts from rabid anti-vaxxers. Lies should not be allowed to stand no matter where they're posted. If your reasoning and logic are sound you shouldn't feel threatened by being asked to support them with facts. I know I don't - it's very easy to tell people that I vax because they work and because they're safe. And if you like I can give you half a dozen peer reviewed authoritative sources to support that assertion.
 

 

Are you implying that Germ theory is debatable? It's not, you know, any more than gravity or thermodynamics are debatable. Trying to attach it makes as much sense as if we were discussing the safety of bungee jumping and you started claiming that gravity doesn't always pull you downward, because Issac Newton recanted on his deathbed.



 

 lol.gif  I knew someone would jump all over that. Thank you for illustrating my point!

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › Do you think there is common ground in vax discussion? Effective communication 101.