grandma - Page 2

[hildare]

Originally Posted by tgerk 

 Back in our day a time out meant a whole different thing and I don't mean a total beating but we knew that we were going to know not to do that ever again and when they say jump you jump. And there was nothing wrong with that at all. The parent all they had to do was look at that child and they knew to straighten up.

This new generation of parents are too soft on these kids and the kids know it. We need to love our kids with all we have and teach them to be good people and this means you need to start early. Children do watch everything us adults do and they mimick us, and yes if we throw temper tantrums they will do so too, they also will watch and listen to how we act towards people and they will follow, normally I should say but then yhou have a child this strong willed and you sometimes have to use a different approach and somtimes that dose mean you have to be stern with them.

 So I can honestly say that those time outs and calm easy talks do not work on some of these kids. I don't push for a person to beat the crap out of a child NOT, but he needs to know that what he dose or how he acts there will be consequences. Again I see what you are saying and I doagree with alot of it but I do still say that there are kids that they do not work for and those are the parents or grandparents who are in real turmoil over what to do. So please to anyone who responds to anuyone else with this kind of problem and you know they are in real distress please feel for them. Thank you

so basically what you are saying you came here for is to get support for your idea that the kid's mom is not hitting him and you think the kid needs to be hit?  if so, i think it's a very very good thing your child doesn't listen to you about your ideas of discipline.

this is not the place to find advocacy for hitting.  there is an astronomical amount of research that shows that hitting or intimidating a child DOES NOT WORK nor does it do anything but negatively affect the child, even to the point of reducing IQ.  there is no reason to advocate hitting a child for any reason.  sorry.

[hakeber]

There is more to GD than time-outs and easy talking.  A LOT more. 

It's never too late to educate yourself, Tgerk.  Even Grandmas from the good ol' days can learn how to be respectful and nurturing to small children and let go of antiquated notions that a child should be a submissive empty box for the public school system to fill with indoctrinated propaganda of the state.

Most of the mothers here at MDC want more for their children than for them to become mindless bricks in the proverbial wall.

If that is not the life you envision for your grandson, if indeed you think he would be most happy spending his life going through the motions and toeing the line, then by all means find a support group to help you convince your daughter that despotic discipline is best.  I have an inkling you want more for that little boy and his mother, and that's why you came here. 

What I really sense is a feeling of distress for your Daughter who is working so hard to give that little boy love, who is probably burnt out as a single mom (BTW there is a single mom forum here, you may want to lurk there, or guide your DD there?), and who is running out of emotional energy, and you think this little boy is taking advantage and being disrespectful to your beloved baby girl.   Is that close?  I think that is a natural reaction and one of the reasons grandparents struggle to not get involved.  Even when your children are grown and in their own homes they are still your babies, and your mama bear instincts still rage at the thought of someone hurting or abusing your little angels.  Even if that someone is a grandchild and very much loved by you themselves.

I don't know what to say for you on that point, because it must be terribly hard, and I have no experience as my children are quite young (Is that perhaps what you mean by young mothers, as in their journey as a mother is still quite young?)  I think finding a group of other grandma's (grandmothering.com?) with whom you can commiserate is a good idea...my mom might join.  She is forever telling me how I spoil my kids and let them abuse me and use me...I just don't see it that way and it's my choice.  That is the mother *I CHOOSE*  to be.  Like letting go of your child when they are a teenager and they choose the wrong friends, bad music, crazy hairstyles and horrible boyfriends, you kind of have to let them take their own journey and yet still find it in your heart to hold them in your arms and take them back when everything goes awry resisting the irresistible urge to say "I told you so."

Your job as Grandma, as I see it, is primarily not to protect your daughter anymore, but rather to love that little boy rotten.  Sneak him gummy bears, kiss his forehead, and make the best danged chicken soup a boy ever had.  That's it.  You don't need to worry about rules and control (beyond protecting yourself and your belongings, of course).  You need to worry about all the fun parts of parenting and let your daughter take the role of disciplinarian.  Because it sounds like for her that means gentle guidance and trust.  It does sound though like she needs better tools and better books.  There are some great recs here on this forum, and some excellent mamas who have seen it all from docile to crazy strong willed, and made it out alive with perfectly lovely children.  You don't need to be bossy and aggressive to have well-behaved kids, even really strong willed ones.  I have two of them, and they are coming out pretty great, if I do say so myself.

To address the idea of making them know so much, I do not think we as parents make our kids know more.  Children are natural scientists and parents who foster that and provide space for creative exploration are allowing kids to be kids.  School's a great place to learn reading, and maths and how to wait in line, or wait to  be heard, but they are hardly a place to learn about how to think creatively or solve problems.  That comes from home.  Well at least that's the sort of home I try to create.

I empathize with you.  It must be heart wrenching to watch your daughter make parenting choices you think are too much for her to handle.  These are her choices.  Rather than struggle to find a way to change her bahvior, or control a small  child to be a "better kid", try to find another way to meet your need to know the person you love is okay (perfectly valid need).  Maybe you could write her a loving letter, take her for a spa day, treat her to a mani-pedi girl's day, or just share your feelings of fear with her over a cup of tea and sympathy.  You might find she is doing okay and likes the choices she has made and feels good about it.  You might find she just needs you to be her friend for a little while...at that point you have to just let go and let her follow her own journey as a mom.  That's just my 2 cents.  

Edited by hakeber - 8/13/11 at 2:23pm

[holothuroidea]

I second everything that hakeber said, who has all the same sentiments I do but is far nicer and more eloquent. 

[MrsSurplus]

Originally Posted by mom2grrls 

You know I think every "older" generation says that the "younger" generation is worse than theirs somehow.  That kids are less respectful, parents are too lenient, etc. etc.  I think part of that comes from just forgetting how stressful taking out young children can be(thinking under 5 here).  My kids are 7, 10 and 12 now and it's so wonderful to go to the zoo(or wherever) and not have to worry about diapers, feeding babies and naptimes.  But I remember feeling stressed about going anywhere for more than a couple hours when they were young.  So perhaps it's not that "young" parents are not doing the raising right but that the "older" parents expect too much of younger children:)

And I completely disagree with the statement above about manners, I mean seriously is a 3 y/o happens to be impolite(according to who knows) than as an adult they will be the same?  Uh, no lol.

I completely agree that we all forget what it's like to have Littles when we outgrow that stage.  (I have an 11.5y gap between #3 and #4...I had forgotten a lot!)  However, it is also true that for the most part, earlier generations had higher standards for some issues and most of the children of those eras rose to the challenge.  I think it's a combination of those two things. 

Certainly a 3yo will not have perfect manners - which is why we train them.  Neither, however, do they "happen" to be impolite.  We are either teaching children that manners matter or we're teaching them that they don't. We don't expect our children to use the potty, wash their hands correctly, or even drive a car without direction but sometimes we seem to think that they'll learn appropriate social interaction by osmosis!

Originally Posted by holothuroidea 

I don't know why you would think it's offensive to disagree with me. You're not the first, you know.  Having raised one's own kids does not give one authority to impose discipline on others. My own grandmother (who has 9 kids, and over 20 grandchildren) taught me this. Also, we all have incomplete pictures of one another and you don't know what I've seen in my lifetime. Obviously, I've never been the mother of anyone over 3 but you don't really know what I have and have not been exposed to. So, I think your reasoning is specious. 

I didn't say that childhood manners have no bearing on adult manners, I said that they are not determinant of them. I mean, I had great manners as a kid and look at me now! People are not inflexible robots who only do what they were trained to do in childhood. Obviously, the things they are trained in childhood carry over, but we are all capable of making decisions about our behavior and we are not locked into the mould we were poured in. I don't know who Charolotte Mason is but my guess is that we wouldn't get along very well. 

LOL on my not being the first to disagree with you and on your good childhood manners not carrying over to adulthood!  My point (and the point on which I didn't wish to offend) was that you have been a mother for 3 years, and "Grandma" has been one for at least 20 I assume.  While I certainly don't know your history and what you may or may not have been exposed to, neither do you know that of the original poster.  In a case like that it seems reasonable to assume that she has seen more (in the way of parenting) than you have and has a greater experience-base to draw from.  That doesn't mean that her way is necessarily right or that your's is necessarily wrong, but it seems to me that this forum of "gentle discipline" is anything but "gentle" on those with whom the posters disagree.  We expect our children to be cut slack by anyone and everyone, and then pounce on the adults with whom we disagree.  I'm meandering here...my point was, just based on sheer years of experience parenting, perhaps the poster knows a few things you don't.  (And, vice versa...based on newer parenting theories and information that have come about over the years.) 

First, you actually *did* say that, "The majority of kids this age parrot whatever manners they are exposed to, some choose to use no manners. Either is fine and has no bearing on what manners the child will use when they are an adult."  Now, I understand that you are clarifying that you meant that childhood manners are not determinant of adulthood manners because we are not robots.  While I certainly agree with that, it is well understood (not to mention commonsensical) that it is very hard to break the mold into which we were poured.  Selfish young people do not miraculously become selfless adults.  Children raised without an appreciation for polite interpersonal relations do not magically adopt that as adults.  Yes, they can certainly make a conscious choice to rise above their upbringing, but how many friends and jobs will they lose in the interim?  And, if they never lose a friend or job due to a lack of good interpersonal skills, is it really my desire to intentionally "pour" my child into a "mold" that sets him at a disadvantage in life?  Of course, no parent is perfect and we all reach adulthood with baggage from our childhood.  It is my hope that I am intentional enough to reduce that baggage as much as possible - life is hard enough without my intentionally burdening my child with unnecessary baggage.

I actually think you would get along with Ms. Mason better than you'd guess.  She was a cutting edge educator in the late 1800s and many of the more "gentle-parenting" minded homeschoolers incorporate much of her approach into their schooling endeavors.  One of her (perhaps) more earth-shattering beliefs at the time was that children are "born persons" and should be respected as such.  (See, I bet you have that in common! )
 

[hakeber]

@MrsSurplus: It doesn't seem to me though, that the child actually has such bad manners, he just got the pronoun wrong, really (I'd personally  be applauding the attempt at 3), and instead of kindly modelling the correct form and waiting for him to try it on, he was reprimanded aggressively and then called names behind his back in an online forum of strangers. 

Is a three year old who burps and finds it funny being "terrible" or are they being 3 and in need of gentle reminders that while the sound is funny, polite behavior requires we excuse ourselves?  Should a child who feels their relationship of love and trust with their mother is threatened by an outside force not react with challenging glares and defiance, or is that perhaps expecting just a little too much maturity from them?

I think the point is that 3 yo are notoriously poor at polite social conduct (hence why many mothers never take  their toddlers out at all, and in past generations they rarely did for a multitude of reasons) and assuming he will grow up  to be a monster because he is a challenging toddler is unfair to the child and the mother who is probably working very hard to raise her son in a loving way. 

I also think it is fair to assume that many of the mothers here have come face to face with this sort of aggressive judgement of their children by their mothers and other elders in their community and see this forum as a respite from those confrontations, so may be somewhat on the defense when coming across it here, no?

At the end of the day, online forum discussions can get aggressive, but I think it's fair to point out the hypocrisy and irony of this thread...the OP is complaining about the lack of good manners in her DGS,  but then she rudely corrects him in front of others, and to top it off she is trashing him and his mother's choices behind their backs in an online forum, while also not taking the time to communicate effectively and clearly with the community here.  She then implies  not too subtly that hitting might be a good alternative in some cases on a forum that is vehemently against such methods and makes no secret about that.  Then to top it all, she touts the public school system as the social program that can do no wrong while not being able to construct a coherent paragraph or spell basic verb forms correctly. 

I have to be able to address those glaring contradictions, to highlight those points for self-reflection, if I am going to give any meaningful advice. 

[mamazee]

"Excuse you" is a pretty classic way toddlers misspeak when they're trying to say "excuse me". They don't have pronouns down well yet. I'd assume he's trying to say "excuse me" unless he's still saying it at 5.

Anyway, i agree with Haekeber.

[mom2grrls]

However, it is also true that for the most part, earlier generations had higher standards for some issues and most of the children of those eras rose to the challenge.>>>>>>

Such as?  I'm honestly curious.  Was it higher standards or just a different way of life?  In the book Positive discipline Jane Nelsen challenges this belief that children get worse with every generation and thinks that models/examples/ways of life just get different with every generation.

[MrsSurplus]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

@MrsSurplus: It doesn't seem to me though, that the child actually has such bad manners, he just got the pronoun wrong, really (I'd personally  be applauding the attempt at 3), and instead of kindly modelling the correct form and waiting for him to try it on, he was reprimanded aggressively and then called names behind his back in an online forum of strangers. 

I didn't get the impression from the Grandma that this was a grammatical error but, rather, a power struggle with Grandma (and, apparently, other authority figures).

Should a child who feels their relationship of love and trust with their mother is threatened by an outside force not react with challenging glares and defiance, or is that perhaps expecting just a little too much maturity from them?

That is certainly one possibility.  Another is as the OP described wherein the child knows very well that his behavior is unacceptable to his grandmother but that his mother has a hard time with boundaries.

 assuming he will grow up  to be a monster because he is a challenging toddler is unfair to the child and the mother who is probably working very hard to raise her son in a loving way. 

Agreed.

I also think it is fair to assume that many of the mothers here have come face to face with this sort of aggressive judgement of their children by their mothers and other elders in their community and see this forum as a respite from those confrontations, so may be somewhat on the defense when coming across it here, no?

If that is the case then it seems that they would be quicker to be less-judgmental (given their experiences) and less confrontational in their responses, right?  Being the change they want to see?

I have to be able to address those glaring contradictions, to highlight those points for self-reflection, if I am going to give any meaningful advice. 

And, while I believe your earlier post was to Grandma was quite gracious, I was referring to some of the less gracious posts.

Originally Posted by mamazee 

"Excuse you" is a pretty classic way toddlers misspeak when they're trying to say "excuse me". They don't have pronouns down well yet. I'd assume he's trying to say "excuse me" unless he's still saying it at 5.
 

I have 6 children and I have taught day care.  My personal experience doesn't support this stand (I currently have a 3yo who is not terribly verbal and she's been saying "excuse me" since she was 2.5).  That's not to say that I think it's not possible, but I do think that the OP probably had a pretty good understanding of whether or not her grandson knew what he was saying.  The indication was that he was responding that way to either be funny (his father's family thinks it's funny), ornery (a notorious 3yo trait in this home) or defiant (not unlike a 3yo on occasion as well).
 

Originally Posted by mom2grrls 

However, it is also true that for the most part, earlier generations had higher standards for some issues and most of the children of those eras rose to the challenge.>>>>>>

Such as?  I'm honestly curious.  Was it higher standards or just a different way of life?  In the book Positive discipline Jane Nelsen challenges this belief that children get worse with every generation and thinks that models/examples/ways of life just get different with every generation.

I absolutely do not believe that "children get worse with every generation."  I don't think children change from generation to generation, but parenting often does.  I think lifestyle and expectations go hand in hand.  When one's life does not depend on a child learning obedience at an early age, there's less of a feeling of necessity on Mom & Dad's part to instill obedience in their child.  Due to lifestyles in previous generations (farming lifestyles and other lifestyles that were more "dangerous" than those of today), there was a greater need to have higher expectations of your children.  Additionally, children were often needed to work - either on the farm, or perhaps it was believed that their wages were needed in the home. I don't believe that children have changed - but our expectations have.  Sometimes the expectations were probably too high.  But I think, for the most part, today they are too low.  One need only read biographies of people raised in different eras to see that more was expected of children at earlier ages than is true today (generally speaking).  The Little House on the Prarie series and the books by Ralph Moody (most notably, Little Britches) are fabulous examples.  Obviously, children raised with these realities have parents with different expectations with regard to maturity, obedience, and responsibility. 

We live on a farm and I am AMAZED at how little is expected of my children't peers who live in town.  It's not that the children are incapable - it's that they've never been taught and it's not expected of them.  Truly, my 5yo is expected to do FAR more than many of the 16yos I know.  Again, this isn't the young person's fault.  To a degree it's almost not the parent's fault; we live in such an indulged society that there really is less need for children to pull together and help the family that there was in years gone by.  But because my 5yo has more expectations put on him than the average 5yo we find him to be (generally) more mature, more aware, and more respectful than many 5yos.  He is still 5 - he isn't a robot and he still needs his parents' guidance, correction, love and direction - but he has really been blessed to be expected to do so much.  And he is so proud of that.  My 3yo dd and 5yo ds are SOOOOOOO proud of the fact that they are Mom & Dad's helpers (as all children are when given that opportunity).  They LOVE that they have their own shovels to help irrigate with, that they are "allowed" to help in the garden because they are careful around the plants and can identify weeds (most of the time!).  They love to help cook, set the table, round up goats, help butcher chickens, and clean corrals.  It's just natural that children raised with more responsibilities (particularly those necessary to the family's successful functioning) also are raised with higher expectations for obedience, respect, awareness...maturity in general.  After all, we mature, in large part, through our experiences. 

As a final example, we have friends who have exceptionally bright children.  Unfortunately, while Mom has high expectations for them academically (to which they have lived up), she has very low standards for them behaviorally.  My 18mo can be routinely expected to behave better than her children did at 3 - when she lamented to some friends that he was "just a baby - people need to not expect so much of him."  (He was very disruptive in church and was asked to take him out of the auditorium when he acted up like that.)  It is not that her children are not as bright or as capable as my children.  It's not that I'm a mean belt-wielding mother either.  Her children were all reading well before they entered Kindergarten.  Not mine - although they could have had I put my efforts more toward that.  It's that we have different expectations and goals with regard to child behavior.  All of that to say (sorry for the meandering) - that, yes, for the most part, expectations for children were higher in previous generations and children lived up to those.  When we have high expectations for our children today (within reason, of course), they will live up to those as well - and be quite proud of themselves for it as well.

[mamazee]

From what I've read, mixing up pronouns in a way like "excuse you" instead of "excuse me" is more common for kids with autism, but is common enough for kids that age regardless. I think sometimes parents assume the worst possible reason for a child's behavior, and it can help to think of other possible reasons for something. Pronoun reversal is common enough that it could easily be the reason.