is something up with our 5yo neighbor? - Page 2

[chaimom]

Well, I have a 5 yo dd who recently began kissing me with an open mouth.  It's pretty slobbery, and my hand or my arm or my check gets pecked and wet, but I do think it's very innocent.  I haven't given it a second thought. She just loves to kiss and hug.  (She hates Barbies and would never watch a movie if it didn't have a horse in it, so I'm sure she didn't pick it up from inappropriate media.) 

Saying her dad's a good lover?   Unless there's a lot more you're not saying, this is just plain hilarious.  It's a kids' speak classic.

I believe you're overthinking this. 

[dakotablue]

I'm not sure...I'd go with your gut. On the surface I think its innocent, but the bit about "this is how princesses kiss and 'beautiful' to kiss with your mouth open"...

I worry that is grooming the idea of open mouth kissing to a child. BUT it could just be kids drawing own conclusions.

AND DS sees us kissing...I remember having to teach my younger brother to close his mouth for kisses (he's 10 years younger)

I'm not sure but if you gut says something is off, watch and be vigilant and I'd stop visits that I couldn't be present for.

[EVC]

OK, I'll state this right out: I am a TV junkie. I am. And my (soon to be 6 year old) dd has been exposed to many a TV program that is not at all child appropriate. Coming from that perspective, those two incidents wouldn't raise red flags to me at all. The first one my dd also saw on TV and tried it out on me (completely innocently, she had no sense of when/with whom such kissing is appropriate and inappropriate: TV just shows it, it doesn't explain it: that's the parent's job).

As for the second, my bet is that she heard someone say it on TV and, as a child, assumed that "lover" meant simply "someone who loves," but in the non-sexual sense. Likely she thought she was saying that her father loves her. My daughter has picked up some not-so-appropriate language and has tried it out on occasion in very socially awkward/embarrassing ways: but she had no idea that it was inappropriate until I explained it to her. 

Here's a story: when she was about 4 1/2 she heard someone say "son of a b****" and starting saying (once in public, much to my embarrassment). I quickly and firmly explained to her that that isn't a nice thing to say. She asked why and what it meant. I told her that it is something that some grown-ups say when they are very angry, but not something that kids should say because it is not nice language. She got it. She stopped saying it. Until one night she woke up with a terrible ear infection. I held her and rocked her while she cried when she began screaming, "Mommy it HURTS, it HURTS! Ear infection, you SON OF A B****!" 

OK, bad mommy, bad mommy. 

I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying that different people have different attitudes toward media and what they expose their children to. And when people expose their children to adult media, you're bound to get a few inappropriate words and phrases out of the kids who ultimately have no idea what they're actually saying and why it's considered highly inappropriate by many people. As someone totally guilty of this, that's how I would read the situation. 

[mamazee]

My daughter at some age would call people who loved someone (including a mom who loved her kids) a lover, the same way she would call a chef a cooker. I don't think use of the word "lover" necessarily means anything.

[IncompetentHousewife]

I am a foster parent. If I had my druthers I'd like to see you keep inviting the girl over so you can keep an eye out of any signs of abuse or neglect. But I understand if you can't. I know you'll report anything over the line you see regardless.

If you do, here are some tips an experienced foster mom friend shared with me to prevent inappropriate activity:
- No playing hide and seek
- Bedrooms are for sleeping, not for playing
- Kids of different genders or for whom sexual inappropriateness is likely play within sight of mom only
- Kissing is for family members only

[SweetSilver]

I am Queen of the Worst-Case Scenario.  I overthink everything.  I know this about myself and take this into consideration when I overthink the current situation.  If I were in your place, I *would* see it in a paranoid light.  I understand that their behavior can be normal.  But it's creepy, too.  I would bend over backwards to keep the girls playing at our house.  And watch.  My first responsibility is to keep my daughter safe from creeps.  After that, it's my responsibility to keep other kids safe. (Even if it's just the TV, it's still unsettling.)   To make that judgment, I need more information.  I might strike up a friendship with the mom, and drop in when your daughter wants to play.  "Would you mind if I came over, too?"  And be genuine about it, not suspicious, though that is there too.  You *should* get to know your neighbors even though they are so different.  

     If all is well, you will relax and these fears will recede.  If not, you will see it.  Yes, you could be overthinking things.  But sometimes, that's how so many kids slip through the cracks into the hands of abusers.  (Says the Queen of the Worst-Case Scenario!)

[amberskyfire]

I may seem like the only one, but it doesn't sound at all troubling to me. I don't agree with the tv-on-all-day stuff,  but the areas of concern wouldn't concern me. I think the little girl probably just sees the kissing in her Disney shows (I recall they do kiss open-mouthed in the Disney movies, yes?) and she probably learned it was okay from that, though I would stress to both of the kids that it's only for grownups, etc.

As for the remarks about her dad, she's probably parroting what her mother says and doesn't understand it. My DD hears me talking to my husband whom I am extremely affectionate with. I'll walk by him in the kitchen when he's bent over looking for something in the cabinet and slap him on the butt and say "oh, dang, what a sexy man!" I have no problem kissing him in front of DD and she actually demands that "Daddy, kiss Mommy!" when he leaves for work, etc. I call him "my big, handsome man," and DD will often  parrot this and call him her "big, handsome man." Like "kiss me goodbye, Daddy! You're my big, handsome man!" and then she'll pat his huge gut like I do. To me, it's cute, but I can see how some things a little girl parrots might sound kind of odd.

I haven't met the girl or the family, so I can't say for sure, but it sounds like she dotes on her father. Kids that are sexually molested usually do not want to talk about the person that molests them and they certainly do not have happy, lovey-dovey feelings about being abused and talk about it with glee. I would talk to both girls about the appropriateness of kissing and I would also request that they play only at our house most or all of the time.

[APToddlerMama]

*Many* children who are sexually abused love their abusers very very much and yes, do want to talk about that person.  Many children are also very confused about being abused and may not show "happy love-dovey feelings about being abused and talk about it with glee" but they do frequently role play and act out the abuse that has happened to them.  The statement below is completely false and it really is a dangerous way to think about sexual abuse.  Very few children are sexually abused by scary strangers.  The majority of them are abused by people the family trusts and the child likes and trusts as well. 

Also, not related to your comment at all amberskyfire, just in general for OP.... There is virtually no downside to having the little girl play at your house and not allowing your daughter to play there.  If you don't listen to your gut though, and you make the wrong call on this, the risks are huge.  This is not a "benefit of the doubt" type of situation.  If you do make the wrong call, your child could end up being victimized.  Please listen to your gut, mama.  You have nothing to lose if you do. 
 

Originally Posted by amberskyfire 

Kids that are sexually molested usually do not want to talk about the person that molests them and they certainly do not have happy, lovey-dovey feelings about being abused and talk about it with glee.

[starling&diesel]

Everything that APToddlerMama said! 

I was that five-year-old girl.  Now as a mama, I honour my gut instincts, no matter if they are right or wrong or if I'll ever know either way. 

I would not allow my child over at that house.  Call me a wicked mean mommy or what have you, but I'll take that over the risks. 

I would happily have the neighbour child over to our house to play and keep my ears and eyes open for any other signals that might warrant action.

[mamazee]

Yeah, I give it a 75% chance that it's nothing, but 25% would be too high for me to let my kids over at that house. I'd have her at your house and keep your eyes open.

[SilverFish]

i think that it sounds like nothing.... but it's something that you need to trust your gut instinct about.

but in my experience, it would be very easy for a child to say and do those things without anything bad going on at all, and it happened exactly like that with my youngest sister. my mom thought she was being very proactive and cautious by telling my sister that kissing is ONLY between family members. well, she lived in a house with two teenaged sisters who wanted to watch various types of movies and media, plus really liking disney princess movies, and sure enough, this led to a ton of open mouth kissing and other "lovey" type behavior that she saw on the screen, between adults who WEREN'T related, but then was transferred to the only people that my mom told her it was okay to kiss. anyway, it was just a combination of an oversimplified explanation on my mom's part and being exposed to media that us older sisters hadn't been exposed to as kids for a variety of reasons. the lover thing sounds just like something she would say too, and i've heard other kids saying similar things. 

[LROM]

I read all the replies you've gotten OP and I gotta say... this is a situation where I don't feel like you can just take the words she said, read them on the screen, and be sure there's nothing there.

When young kids (and older ones too) say something that kinda raises a flag for me, I simply ask them what they mean, or if they're younger, I ask what that looks like.  "My daddy is a good lover" to me IS an odd thing to say, but just a few more questions like "What does that mean?  What does a good lover do?" to understand more where she's coming from.  If her answers are clearly in a "he loves our dog, and he loves my little brother, and he loves to eat french fries", then it's probably nothing to get more worried about.  But there ARE answers that a child that age can give that are concerning.

Does that mean, automatically, if she says something else that's scary, that she's being abused?  Not at all.  As many have said, it could be she's seen her parents do things or parroting them, or she's seen it on t.v..

But as a parent trying to assess your comfort with your child hanging out with this child, I absolutely say "Go with your gut".  Since that specific moment and comment has already passed, I'd continue to only let her come over to your house, and listen and supervise.  If nothing else weird comes up, fine.  If she says something else that raises your concern, ask her about it in a non-leading way (i.e. open questions like "What does that mean?  What does that look like?" and not "Does your dad touch you??" or anything that direct, unless she says something really really crazy and scary).

Also keep doing what you're doing, watch your own dd's words and actions and make sure you address anything that seems not-aligned to how you want to raise her.  Some things we don't have much control over, but you can absolutely bet that if my child started saying things about her looks or her body that troubled me, or I heard her friend say something that creeped me out because they were words or a phrase I don't expect a child that age to say, I'm gonna follow up on it.  Not in an alarmist way (even if I'm internally a little alarmed), but in a matter of fact way.  I've already had to do that a couple of times with my dd and she didn't seem phased by my questions, and I felt reassured that it was nothing.

By the way, I DO understand that kids say things all the time that are misrepresentations of the words.  My dd the other day was at a friends house then came home saying she was wearing "flip flops" and she kept showing me her face.  I asked many questions to try to understand what "flip flops" meant to her, since it clearly wasn't footwear, and finally figured out she meant "lip gloss" (which I had a different issue with, but at least I understood her!)  So I do get that the neighbor girl most likely didn't mean what that word means to adults.  But I'd want to check.  So if there's a next "Whoa, that is weird" comment from her, ask her what she means or how she knows, you know, kid-level questions to try to sort out what she's expressing.  I really think that will further direct you to what you think you should or shouldn't address and how to do it.

[Mom31]

I am kind of disturbed that the only two things you said about this family that are weird are that they watch disney movies all day and they play with barbies....

I would ask more questions and not hesitate to get to know this family more. You may be able to help them find better ways to keep their kids occupied without shunning them from play with your daughter.  I don't think it is a good or crunchy lesson to teach our children that people in the mainstream are bad or unworthy of friendship. You never know when the right opportunity will come to educate, befriend, help, will come along.

that said I don't really like my kids being at other s house in general unless they are close family friends. and even at that it's a rare occasion but I don't think disney movies and barbies are the worst offense in the parenting world.

[newyorkmommy]

I guess I am way in the minority here, but if it were me I'd cut off the play dates completely -- unless they were at my house and I was actively supervising, and even then frankly I'd be a little concerned.

I'm also concerned about the neighbor girl. To me, the open-mouth kissing and the comment about her dad are straight out of National Lampoon's Vacation, but not in a funny way. I'd mention them both to the girl's mom, regardless of how well you know her. At worst, she decides you're uptight. GL.