I am seriously worried about what I might do to him next time...please help!

[Mama_2_Boy]

My DS is 6 and half.  I grew up in a very violent home and although I swore I would never hit my child, I do scream my head off and lose it.  I am very physically agressive with him, grabbing him, pushing.  We have trouble in school and all summer me and DH have been trying to work with him to get him into grade 2 this coming September.  I DO NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE TO DO THIS!  I was with him for 3 freaking hours today trying to get him to do some work and he continues to fidgit and fool around, make excuses for why he won't do the work etc etc...I snapped and threw him to the floor and then dragged him to the couch and made him lay down and told him he's going to sleep because he's obviously too tired to try and concentrate.  I AM AT MY WITTS END!!  DH is working today so it's me and my son and my 20 month old.  I just don't know how to deal with him without getting so damn upset!  I HATE MYSELF....I REALLY REALLY DO AND I FANTASIZE ABOUT KILLING MYSELF TO SAVE MY CHILDREN FROM ME.  No, I wouldn't actually do that but in my head there is sooooooooooo much frustration!  I have tried to walk away from him when I feel the anger mount and I feel so caught in a corner when it happens.  I think I should refrain from trying to do any work with him at all.  I feel like such a failure as a parent and so frustrated WHY IS NOTHING I AM DOING GETTING THROUGH TO HIM?!?  WHY DOESN'T HE GET IT?!?  I just don't know how to handle myself any more, I am sitting here bawling bawling bawling...I hate what my parents did to me, I really do.

[ThreeTwoFive]

I think you need to talk to someone in real life, like a friend or a therapist.  But here's my 2 cents anyway.

You don't say why you're trying to get him ready for 2nd grade.  Are you trying to accelerate him?  Did he pass the 1st grade?  If teaching him isn't working for you, then I would stop that.  There are lots of ways to build school readiness skills. How about going to a story time at the library? Going to the zoo and talking about the animals together?  I wouldn't want to do worksheets during my summer break if I were 6.  Well, I would have, but I was weird. 

His behavior doesn't sound that extreme.  Could you give more examples of what he does to set you off?  If you could avoid triggering that, maybe it would help.

[hakeber]

First of all I want to let you know that I think it is great you came here to get some advice.  You can see things are out of control and you recognize the need for help.  That's good.  But I do not think that a website full of strangers is the sort of help you need.  You need help from an abuse specialist.  Someone who can help you with anger management and child rearing techniques in a one on one situation.

This sounds very serious and terrorizing for your child and if you really want to break the cycle of abuse you will need to do more than join a board like this.

Speak to a therapist so that you can work through your anger and eventually make ammends with your child.

That being said:  teaching a child academic instruction is a qualification that people go to school for YEARS and YEARS to master and they study a phenomenal amount about child psychology and development and even then some struggle to handle kids at that age group.  You are stretching yourself too far.

Being fidgety and unfocused in the summer between 1st and 2nd grade, especially in boys, is perfectly normal and nothing to flip out over.  The anger is not because he is being difficult, but because you have a situation you don't know how to fix and you have somehow been lead to believe you should.

I think you need to hire a tutor to hep him, and seek some support for your own issues son that you don't pass on this cycle of abuse.

You're starting with the right steps. 

[APToddlerMama]

I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated and desperate.  A good book about unraveling your past is Parenting From the Inside Out.  Amazon carries it as well as many libraries.  Please find a therapist for yourself as soon as possible.  You need some real life support.  Try to take a deep breath and remove yourself from these situations to calm yourself down before they escalate with your son.  Hugs, mama.... Parenting is hard work, especially when you spent however many years "learning" from your own dysfunctional parents. 

[Mama_2_Boy]

I agree with the therapy, and over the years I have tried to go.  The first individual I went to, I was there for about 3 months and on our last visit, he says to me "there are alot of issues in your family, alot of abuse from your parents'...I had revealed alot to him over the prior 3 months but he was suddenly talking to me about things that I didn't recall sharing.  He then tells me that my brother has also been going to him (what are the odds??) and how much abuse my brother went through and this, that and the other thing.  I was appalled.  Yes I never went back and I wrote a letter to his board - anyways thats another story.

I went a short time later to someone else, he hit on me in the session - I'm not going into detail about it here.

After a couple of years, I got up the nerve to try again.  I went to someone recommended to me by a family member that is also a social worker.  I was in this new therapysts office, talking away and I felt like she was disinterested in me and then I noticed she kept looking sorta behind me, to my left.  After a short time I turned around and saw a small clock on the table beside me.  I didn't make another appointment and when I told her why I was not coming back, because I felt like she was not really interested in sitting with me she said 'oh, ok'...she didn't even try to make amends or question it.  Maybe I expect too much?

I'm not totally against going to someone again.

[APToddlerMama]

That really sucks that you have had so many bad experiences with therapists.  It really can take time to find a good one.  I would see if I could briefly "interview" a few therapists over the phone before trying a new one.  I'd want to find out if they have experience working with survivors of abuse and anger management.  I don't know if this would be uncomfortable for you, but in the past, I've asked friends if they know any good therapists and have gotten some good suggestions.  A lot of my friends are social workers, and I think as a group we're more likely to not be embarrassed to tell others if we're seeing a therapist, so I don't know if that is going to be an option, but you may find out more of your friends have used therapists than you realize.  You could also post on MDC in the forum on where you live to see if anyone has suggestions...  Good luck.

[SpottedFoxx]

Mama - I too came from a violent home and I too have vowed to not do that to my son.  Every family has a legacy - it's up to us to decide which part of that legacy to share and which part to leave in the past.  You have made the right decision but now you need help in implementing it.  Please, find a therapist who specializes in adults with an abusive past and/or someone who can counsel you on proper parenting.

As far as getting him ready to work.  All kids get "schplikas" (the wiggles).  It's normal.  Their bodies want to go go go and you need them to stop for a bit and focus.  Now, my son has special needs but I think our techniques for getting the wiggles out works with any child.  We make sure his work area is clear of anything that may be distracting - from a piece of unnecessary paper to dust.  Only things absolutely necessary to the task at hand.  Then, before you have him sit down, have him do jumping jacks or grab his ankles for a bit of a wheel barrel walk, or have him run up and down the steps a few times or do a bear walk/crab walk around the room.  Then keep an eye on your son.  When you see the wiggles returning, let him have a break.  Ask him to bring your purse (the heavier the better).  Then look through it and hand it back to him and ask him to put it back.  Then ask him to get you something (heavy) from another part of the house (not too heavy so that he'd hurt himself - just enough that he's exerting energy).  Then back to work.  Yes, this will make the task take longer but it will get done and it will get done right.  Try it.

[holothuroidea]

I'm another abuse survivor and I've been there with the suicidal fantasies. I've been there with the pushing and shoving over nothing, too.  You CAN get better, but it's going to take a lot of hard work. Therapy never worked for me and it's such a hassle that I've stopped trying. Reading a lot (Parenting for a Peaceful World, Parenting from the Inside Out) helped me, and writing too. You've got to find what works for you but you need to work through it somehow and if you can't find a way to do it yourself then maybe you should reconsider therapy.

But in the meantime...

The very first thing you need to do, and do it for your kids if you can't do it for yourself, is have a plan for times like this. You need to have a real life person you can call and say, "I do not want to be alone right now, please help." If your DH can't do that, find someone in your family who can, and if that doesn't work find another stay at home mom. For emergencies (when nobody else can make it) know the phone number for your local crisis center. If you don't have any local crisis centers, know the number of a licensed child care service where you can take your kids. Just have a plan.

The next thing you need to learn to do is recognize and respect your own limits. Do not internalize these as faults, everyone has their own natural limits. If you have very low limits and you want them to be better, you can stretch them (just like you would a muscle) but when you are healthy not when you are stressed. When you are approaching your limit, (and here's the tricky part) you have to execute your plan. Since this usually means reaching out to someone it can be very difficult. But the right thing to do is almost always difficult. 

Does your DH know how much you struggle? If he doesn't, maybe you should let him know.

ALSO---- You are already doing better for your kids then your parents did for you and that is saying something. You are a great mother because you obviously care, and I can tell that you have the courage to make it better because it took courage to post what you did. You will find a way to work through this. Keep trying. 

[Mama_2_Boy]

Originally Posted by holothuroidea 

I'm another abuse survivor and I've been there with the suicidal fantasies. I've been there with the pushing and shoving over nothing, too.  You CAN get better, but it's going to take a lot of hard work. Therapy never worked for me and it's such a hassle that I've stopped trying. Reading a lot (Parenting for a Peaceful World, Parenting from the Inside Out) helped me, and writing too. You've got to find what works for you but you need to work through it somehow and if you can't find a way to do it yourself then maybe you should reconsider therapy.

But in the meantime...

The very first thing you need to do, and do it for your kids if you can't do it for yourself, is have a plan for times like this. You need to have a real life person you can call and say, "I do not want to be alone right now, please help." If your DH can't do that, find someone in your family who can, and if that doesn't work find another stay at home mom. For emergencies (when nobody else can make it) know the phone number for your local crisis center. If you don't have any local crisis centers, know the number of a licensed child care service where you can take your kids. Just have a plan.

The next thing you need to learn to do is recognize and respect your own limits. Do not internalize these as faults, everyone has their own natural limits. If you have very low limits and you want them to be better, you can stretch them (just like you would a muscle) but when you are healthy not when you are stressed. When you are approaching your limit, (and here's the tricky part) you have to execute your plan. Since this usually means reaching out to someone it can be very difficult. But the right thing to do is almost always difficult. 

Does your DH know how much you struggle? If he doesn't, maybe you should let him know.

ALSO---- You are already doing better for your kids then your parents did for you and that is saying something. You are a great mother because you obviously care, and I can tell that you have the courage to make it better because it took courage to post what you did. You will find a way to work through this. Keep trying. 

Thank you - your words are most healing....

[LynnS6]

I wonder if some parenting classes/therapy for working with your parenting expectations might be a good first step -- it sounds to me like you need some new tools in your parenting toolbox. The tools you have are a legacy of abuse, and it's hard to avoid using them if they're the only tools you've got. Yes, you've probably got some deep work to do in therapy, but that's a long term project, and you need some new parenting tools soon. The fact that you recognize this is a huge step forward.

I took a look at your location, and there's an interesting group called Triple P Ontario -- the Positive Parenting Program http://www.triplepontario.ca/en/home.aspx -- it looks like they've got resources for all areas of Ontario. If that doesn't work, maybe they can recommend a parenting class/facilitator. As others have said, reading helps a lot too -- not just on parenting, but also on typical development. Many parents from abusive backgrounds have unrealistic expectations of their children because they've never seen realistic ones. That's understandable, but it's something you'll have to recognize and learn about.

Can you separate yourself from your kids when the rage gets to be overwhelming? Can you put your 20 month old in a safe place (if you don't use a crib, what about a pack 'n play), go to your room and do some deep breathing, lay on your bed and do some relaxation. 5-10 minutes away from your kids (even if they're not happy) might help you break the cycle for that moment. Because even when  you call someone else (and having someone on call is a great idea), it'll take them a few minutes to get to you. So, doing things that help you regain control will be a good thing, no matter what.

Finally, you might consider posting in the 'Surviving Abuse' forum -- there are a parents there who've been through what you've suffered and can offer more targeted advice than those of us without that background.

Edited by LynnS6 - 8/15/11 at 6:26pm

[joensally]

Such good advice in this thread, and I wanted to send my support to you too!

I'll ditto the TripleP advice - please reach out to your local social service agency to see what kind of parenting classes or support they can offer.  Parenting is HARD, especially when you've got strong emotions roiling inside of you.  Many of us have been/are there. 

Your son's behaviour is likely developmentally/age appropriate.  Doesn't mean it's pleasant to live with.  This may sound like strange parenting advice: expect less.  Start from the assumption that your son is doing the best he can at the moment.  He's not trying to thwart your efforts, or to be a pain.  He's got all kinds of energy and very little self-control.  If you go head to head with him, trying to get him to bend to your will, he will either resist (oppositional), or get silly (equally aggravating). 

I like Spotted Fox's suggestion about physical activity before sit down work.  Lots of six year old boys are lousy at sitting still.  How's his printing?  If he's struggling with that, that's going to double his difficulty in sit down work.

Tell us more about what's happening at school.  Maybe we can help with some ideas.

I really like Barry Macdonald on boys:

http://www.mentoringboys.com/barry_macdonald.html

Do you like to read books for information?  If so, I'm sure there's lots to be recommended.

It sounds like you need to work on both ends of this problem:  parenting strategies that are developmentally appropriate, including reasonable expectations, and working on your own emotional health.  I bet the folks at Triple P might have some ideas to help you find a good therapist.

[NellieKatz]

I was raised in an angry/violent environment too. I've been reading stuff by Marshall Rosenberg ("Non-Violent Communication") and that is very very helpful.

But aside from Marshall Rosenberg, what I noticed about myself when I was being all frustrated and angry at my kid because he wasn't doing something....it was fear. (Anger, by the way, is just a symptom of some need of yours that isn't getting met. It's not about what the other person is actually doing, which, according to Rosenberg, is just a trigger).  But yes, when I am at my angriest, it's usually when I am most afraid. Afraid of being a failure. So you lean real hard on your kid because you're under the mistaken idea that you "should" be able to achieve something with him (like the homework) but it's not true. He's an individual and you cannot control him, nor should you. As an example, you sound very afraid that something bad will happen if he doesn't do his homework.

The homework isn't so important in the grand scheme of things....but your relationship with your son is. It's not his job to patch up your fear or heal your past. He is brand new on this earth and you have the opportunity now to give him a childhood that's different than yours was. But it's a HARD journey, being the parent who has to do better than their parents did. So if you really need someone to lean on in person, such as a friend or therapist, I say go for it. Reach out and talk to someone. You clearly want to do the right thing for your son, and here's what I want to say....you CAN have a happy ending here. You CAN improve things with your son. As things improve between the two of you, and when the love gets bigger than the fear or anger, he will be better able to accomplish the things he needs to for school, because stress just drags people down and they really can't do their best under stress.

Have compassion for yourself. Say something nice like "I may have screwed up today, but I CAN do better tomorrow." Because it's true. Each day is a blank slate and you get to start over....start with love....you should hug your son right away, apologize for losing your temper, tell him your reaction was way over the line, that you're going to work on your own problems and help him with his. Get back to the love and keep your eye on the relationship. You can do it! If not alone, then with help.

Never lose hope, and always show yourself the love you need to, to get through this. Remember, if your parents didn't give you enough love, then you have to "be the parent" to yourself. It sucks but it's true. Give yourself love, give yourself stability, even if you don't feel you've "earned it," as some of us so often feel we have to. Just because you messed up, doesn't mean you don't deserve love and care. You do. We all do, no questions asked. You don't have to be perfect; you don't have to have all the answers; you don't have to control your son or produce "results." 

Sorry if I sound like I'm oversimplifying, or becoming a crazed cheerleader. It's just that I can identify with feeling an anger I don't want to feel....and at the root of it was just so much fear.

My best wishes to you.

[holothuroidea]

NellieKatz I would like your post a hundred times if I could, but I can't so I will settle for a , a and a

[Linda on the move]

lots of good stuff already.

I wanted to ask again why you are so concerned about getting him into second grade. What is going on with his school work? Is he behind? Are there problems? If so, has he been evaluated for special needs?

Attempting to get a child who has an LD to do the things that seem so easy for their peers can be quite impossible.

It seems quite possible to me that part of the reason that he doesn't "get it" is because he can't. And that trouble shooting what is actually going on with him might help a lot.

I'm also a survivor of child abuse, and sometimes, I just walk away from my kids. I've given myself time outs (where I go into my bedroom and shut the door).

[NellieKatz]

Linda's right. Walking away. For a while there, before I got good at it, since anger grabbed me so BODILY, and it ramped up so quickly, like a flash-fire, I developed a technique called "becoming a limp blade of grass." It sounds crazy. It looked crazy. But I told my son what I was doing. I said that I was trying to deal with big strong angry feelings and sometimes I had to just kneel down on the floor real fast and be limp. My whole body. I called it the limp blade of grass, because it's the first thing I could think of. But seriously, as wacky as that sounds, it was necessary. Anger flashes through the body like wildfire in a person who hasn't yet done the necessary inner work on it. And because at that point I was still susceptible to that, I had to go limp FAST, or else I would have wanted to grab my son and drag him off to time out or whatever (with him kicking and screaming). [This was all before our parenting changed, by the way]

Anyway, it reminds me a little of demonstrators at sit-ins back in the '60's, who when they were met with violent police clubbing, or they were being dragged to the paddy wagon, they'd just go limp. And in a way, when fury struck me, it was a little like being attacked. Attacked by out of control feelings. So a full-body limpness takes all that strong anger out of the hands, arms and muscles where they can do harm. While you're there, limp, vulnerable, you can breathe--regather your thoughts. Count to ten. Whatever. You can say to your son...."Mama's being limp because the anger inside is so fiery right now. I'm calming myself down." In doing so, you not only prevent a reaction you will regret, BUT you are modeling for him how it is to work on an area that needs work.

Best of luck to you both.

[zacsmum]

NellieKatz, what you wrote is fantastic - I found it really helpful for dealing with my own anger and hope the OP does too.  Thank you.

[NellieKatz]

I'm glad you said that. When I read of moms who are in distress over something that I've had some success conquering, I sort of go into a zone where I can just FEEL how it was to be there. I then just tell the honest truth about what I felt and how I got through it, and I hope to heaven it makes sense to people.  :-)

Originally Posted by zacsmum 

NellieKatz, what you wrote is fantastic - I found it really helpful for dealing with my own anger and hope the OP does too.  Thank you.

[Mama_2_Boy]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to read and reply;  I will start by saying, yes, I do feel a need to 'control' as was what I was raised with..."CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL" and even though I have been in therapy and know all the triggers and have all the knowledge of what happened to me and what I am trying to do with my own child, I still have a very difficult time using that information for all our benefit.  Yes I am afraid of my son not being able to do the work, I am very afraid he will become ME!  I had a very tough time in school and back then I was ridiculed and accused of not wanting to learn and yelled at by both my parents and the school for being a trouble maker. 

Yes my son is having a difficult time with his learning.  Both me and DH have gone through the motions of the testing and meeting with the school etc etc.  At the end of grade 1 they gave us the option of leaving him behind or moving him to grade 2.  We chose to move him through and we are also looking into tuturos for this school year.  So yes I am aware that he has a difficult time with focus, sitting still, grasping concepts etc...yet I am so afraid that if he doesn't get through this that he will end up like me. I have not reitered this in my initial post because I am sick to death of going over this subject of the ADHD potential and all that comes with it, the medication discussion and what have you.  I really do not want to talk about the label, I really don't. 

My issues are about me and learning to deal with my anger and that will be there no matter what.  It just kills me that being raised in the environment I was and I swore before I even had kids that I would never hit my children...and now I have a child that does not listen at all and it is challenging every facet of my being.  I also have to add that I am feeling alot of pressure from certain people around me (namely some family members) who really think they are a know it all and are constantly giving me advice on how to deal with him.  They make it to me like 'well you just do A and B will happen"  no...no..no

Edited by Mama_2_Boy - 8/18/11 at 6:18am

[NellieKatz]

I didn't mention this before, but I am a homeschooler and feel very strongly about this. Some little boys just aren't cut out for what the formalized school setting asks of them. Your child could be extremely bright and creative and headstrong, and all of those things are great. But in a school system, where everything's based on forcing your kid to learn a certain subject at a certain time in a certain way.....that is HARD for some little kids. And it's hard for the parents, I imagine, because they are in the position of having to enforce the demands of the school, whether or not they fit with your child's temperament and abilities.

It doesn't sound like you are in any position to homeschool, but maybe you could just file that little nugget in the back of your mind. That the idea of taking a bunch of kids who were BORN to learn, born inquisitive, born curious and wonderful and fascinating and individual, and then trying to get them to "learn" all on the same schedule.....that's sort of unnatural, right? Now, I see why they do it, of course, but what I'm saying is that if a person's kid doesn't want to go along with it, it could be because he recognizes the inherent insanity of it. It could be because he is super-bright and his BS-Detector hasn't been shut off yet.  :-)

My own son may elect to go to school at some time, though I doubt it. But if he does, it will be AFTER he's learned all the basics in his own way, and after he's formed a self-image for himself as a good learner and a smart kid. The thing with some little kids, when they are having trouble in school which is really more about the system than about them....they can come away with a negative label, like troublemaker, ADD, discipline problem, can't-sit-still, delayed reader, etc. (my kid reads GREAT now but didn't really get around to it till age 7). And it is those internalized labels that I worry about, as they follow the kid throughout their lives.

So, I'd say to remember to be your son's ally through it all. I would have no problem saying to my son "Yeah, honey, I know that sounds like the dumbest assignment ever, but that's what the school needs you to do right now. I know it's hard. I know you learn better when you're able to move your body and hands, and walk around and think things over, but the school needs you to sit quietly and that makes it hard, with your style of learning. Maybe you'll understand the homework better if we work on it together; maybe I can explain it to you a different way...."  etc etc

Best of luck! Don't let the know-it-all relatives get to you. YOU can put your child first, and your love for him first, and break with family traditions and habits that no longer serve you. That is what I am doing. Not a single member of my family or husband's family "gets" what I'm doing with my son. I have found support elsewhere.
 

Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy 

Thank you everyone for taking the time to read and reply;  I will start by saying, yes, I do feel a need to 'control' as was what I was raised with..."CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL" and even though I have been in therapy and know all the triggers and have all the knowledge of what happened to me and what I am trying to do with my own child, I still have a very difficult time using that information for all our benefit.  Yes I am afraid of my son not being able to do the work, I am very afraid he will become ME!  I had a very tough time in school and back then I was ridiculed and accused of not wanting to learn and yelled at by both my parents and the school for being a trouble maker. 

Yes my son is having a difficult time with his learning.  Both me and DH have gone through the motions of the testing and meeting with the school etc etc.  At the end of grade 1 they gave us the option of leaving him behind or moving him to grade 2.  We chose to move him through and we are also looking into tuturos for this school year.  So yes I am aware that he has a difficult time with focus, sitting still, grasping concepts etc...yet I am so afraid that if he doesn't get through this that he will end up like me. I have not reitered this in my initial post because I am sick to death of going over this subject of the ADHD potential and all that comes with it, the medication discussion and what have you.  I really do not want to talk about the label, I really don't. 

My issues are about me and learning to deal with my anger and that will be there no matter what.  It just kills me that being raised in the environment I was and I swore before I even had kids that I would never hit my children...and now I have a child that does not listen at all and it is challenging every facet of my being.  I also have to add that I am feeling alot of pressure from certain people around me (namely some family members) who really think they are a know it all and are constantly giving me advice on how to deal with him.  They make it to me like 'well you just do A and B will happen"  no...no..no

[SpottedFoxx]

I know this isn't exactly what you wanted to discuss but I must address it.  I grew up being told I was stupid, lazy, a day dreamer.  I was none of the above.  I was, however, suffering from ADHD and dyslexia.  Ignoring your child's learning issues isn't going to make them go away.  He will become more withdrawn, more angry and make your resolve to gently parent dissolve.  Please stop saying you don't want to deal with it.  You don't have to but he does.  You have a responsibility as his parent to ensure the best education you can provide with the least amount of obstacles.

My best friend also has ADHD and dyslexia.  Her parents were proactive with her learning challenges and got her tons and tons of help.  She went on to college, got her degree (even though it took 8 years), has an amazing career and earns 6 figures.

My parents felt I was too stupid and lazy for college.  I never went.  I earn a decent living but am stuck in a rut that unless I find a way to go back to school, I will probably never get out of.  

What do you want for you son?  No one is saying it has to be meds.  There may be other things that can be done for him.  

Please, I'm begging you, address this issue as soon as you can.

Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy 

Yes my son is having a difficult time with his learning.  Both me and DH have gone through the motions of the testing and meeting with the school etc etc.  At the end of grade 1 they gave us the option of leaving him behind or moving him to grade 2.  We chose to move him through and we are also looking into tuturos for this school year.  So yes I am aware that he has a difficult time with focus, sitting still, grasping concepts etc...yet I am so afraid that if he doesn't get through this that he will end up like me. I have not reitered this in my initial post because I am sick to death of going over this subject of the ADHD potential and all that comes with it, the medication discussion and what have you.  I really do not want to talk about the label, I really don't. 

My issues are about me and learning to deal with my anger and that will be there no matter what.  It just kills me that being raised in the environment I was and I swore before I even had kids that I would never hit my children...and now I have a child that does not listen at all and it is challenging every facet of my being.  I also have to add that I am feeling alot of pressure from certain people around me (namely some family members) who really think they are a know it all and are constantly giving me advice on how to deal with him.  They make it to me like 'well you just do A and B will happen"  no...no..no