or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › Children, parents, restaurants, manners, etiquette...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Children, parents, restaurants, manners, etiquette... - Page 6

post #101 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

You have no idea why people are on their cell phones and why they are at the restaurant in the first place. I hate to think that people like you are judging me when Im trying to do my job with my family present.

 


I do not judge people for being on the cell phone at a restaurant - hey, they are not my dinner companions, so I do not really care.

 

My issue with cell phones in public in general (restaurants, in line at grocery stores, etc) is that cell phones are disruptive. I do not want to hear ringing from another table, and for some reason people seem to talk louder, by far, on cell phones than to a companion.  I have no idea why - but loud talking on cell phones is an issue.

 

 

So (and this is not addressed to you - obviously I have no idea of your cell phone habits) set things to vibrate and make an effort to talk in a normal tone at a normal level.  

 

 


Edited by purslaine - 8/25/11 at 9:22am
post #102 of 200
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post

 I've also learned that The French Laundry is a SUPER fancy restaurant

 



I'm glad you learned at least one thing from this thread.

post #103 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post



 

Unfortunately, unless you put up a sign, I would guess that people, in general, don't know why you're on your cell phone at the dinner table and would be more inclined to think that you can't get off of your smart phones rather than jumping to the conclusion that you are having your monthly business meeting with child in tow.  People do judge... just like they do when they see a kid strapped into a car seat in a running car while the parent is inside.  Nobody knows the whole story.  I know that *I* would not make the odd assumption that you're having a business meeting with your husband.  Most people who dine out as a family are usually trying to get away from that.  It's just not a natural conclusion to come to, IYKWIM.  Nobody is going to think, "A couple, with a young toddler going out to eat.  They must be having a business meeting."

 

And I still concur that etiquette is not a sign of wealth, necessarily.  This thread makes me wonder if it's a sign of the times, so to speak.  That is, my parents may have been rural farming and civil servant folk, but they knew quite well how to entertain and the proper rules to teach their kids - it had nothing to do with income.  Like I said, though, my parents are probably older than many MDC momma's grandparents and I KNOW I am one of the older moms here.  Perhaps it's generational.

 

As for cleaning up after a child... table, yes.  Crawling on the floor?  Are you kidding me?  They have sweepers and you can tip appropriately.


Well, judge if you want to. In the years Ive spent running a small business, keeping "strange" work hours, and hauling my kid everywhere with me to do our work Ive learned that there is a good portion of people who are NOT 9-5ers and DO do "odd" things like have business meetings with their toddler present. Lost of family owned businesses do this. Plus, even if it wasnt me and my situation, I still make the argument that you have NO IDEA why people are on their phones. DH is on his phone everyday for the entire lunch checking email and texting. We have a no using telephone while driving policy in our family, and since he is always either working with loud machines or has his hands in the dirt lunch is pretty much the only hour of the day he is able to respond to people. Im just tired of hearing people complain about people "being on their smartphones" in public. Its not generational, its just making the assumption that everyone is using their phones for entertainment purposes only. You know where my DH ate lunch before his Iphone? He didnt. He just worked as fast as he could so he could come home and still have the energy to respond to clients at the end of the day in our living room on the internet when I was trying to have dinner. There are tons people who do this, so dont assume everyone is playing angry birds.

If my kid threw a bunch of stuff on the floor, I crawl on the floor and get it. A lot of restaurants do not allow servers to use sweepers while customers are in the building, and I for one have crawled on the floor to pick up some kids crushed up bananna and HATED the mom. Server, not servant.


Kathymuggle,
ITA. Our phones are kept on vibrate and we always try to take verbal conversations outside. I have no idea why people feel the need to yell on the phone.
post #104 of 200
Thread Starter 

Most people aren't you, Holly.  Most people *are* on their smartphones being rude to their dining companions.  I was telling you what others are probably thinking.  How is someone to assume that a small family of two adults and a toddler are having a business dinner?  I mean, what person would conclude that?  All I'm saying is that when you see people on their phones at dinner, 99% of the time it's not urgent business that can't wait until they've had their family time.  Unfortunately, with all of your good intentions, you get included with the majority.  I'm not saying *I* am judging, just that people do wonder.

 

As for the incident with the kid I wrote about... the parents weren't paying a lick of attention to him.  I doubt that you'd (you, Holly, not the collective you) be ignoring your child if you were conducting business because of your parenting principles that brought you to MDC.  Something had those parents engaged that they couldn't take their eyes off of the screen and parenting was not on their mind.  As an AP momma, I doubt you would do that in any circumstance.  But people don't know your whole story, and yes they make assumptions.  Good or bad, it's human nature.

post #105 of 200


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post




So as to not splash it on oneself.  Likewise, tip the soup bowl away from oneself to get the last bit... same reason.  This is so esoteric, I think that it's probably not followed unless in formal State dinners and at the most high end restaurants in the world.  It's just one of those points that *can* be taught and may be used at some point in the future, so what's the harm in teaching it?  Daily use... nope... if you need it... nice to know.

 


 

By the way, one does not ever tip a soup bowl in any way.  Away from oneself or towards.  It would be considered gauche and crass to attempt to get every last drop. 


Just keep that in mind for your next French Laundry dinner.  HTH!

post #106 of 200


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post






To be honest, I don't know what your intention was with this thread. But because of the way you've gone about it, I don't at ALL get that your main point is about the importance of kids knowing basic manners. The info I've walked away from this thread with is: You spend a lot of money on fancy dinners; you have extremely high expectations of childrens' table etiquette (some of which you even admit is too "esoteric" to be practical, but yet you've spent so much time and detail talking about it...why?) I've also learned that The French Laundry is a SUPER fancy restaurant; that the Outback and Red Lobster are just wannabe nice restaurants, and that velochic and family DO. NOT. EAT at places like Denny's.

 

 

 

 

Not just wannabe nice restaurants - one step up from fast food, even!  If it weren't for the zingers toward Applebees and Denny's, I'd think she's never been to a restaurant that was closer to fast food than Outback.  

 

post #107 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post



I was asking if these things are taught to kids anymore.  I come from very humble roots - rural farming family, working my way through college, parents who were small children during the Great Depression, and I was still taught impeccable manners and dining etiquette even though at the time I was taught it seemed like I'd never use it.  Then, out of the blue, as poor working student, I am asked to a lunch where these minutia of dining etiquette become important... hell yeah, I'm glad my parents taught me what they did.  I wasn't bragging about having lunch with a dignitary, I was pointing out that even if you think your kids will never use them, learning the rules of etiquette can be valuable and I'm bragging on my parents for having that forethought.  All I'm saying is that, IMO, it doesn't hurt to teach your kids these things, it can only come in handy and make your kids more polite no matter where they are.  If that makes me a snob to know the rules, then hell yeah, I'm a snob.  And I'm teaching my daughter to be a snob, too, then.  Neither I nor anyone else I have ever seen have ever commented to someone or to each other if they missed a fine etiquette point.  I've never even seen someone say something about a rude child that is making the meal miserable for everyone around them.  (Show me where I said that I watch other people and comment or judge if they choose the wrong utensil.)   If you'll re-read my OP, I said that this incident got me to thinking about what is being taught to kids these days.  I know what we do in our family, but obviously some parents are not even teaching their kids manners.  I was wondering why.  And yes, I'm mixing the two together because I think even if parents aren't teaching finer points, then at least teach them basic manners so they don't disturb others around them.
 

 



 

Thank you.  smile.gif I sincerely appreciate the explanation and clarification. Thank you for acknowledging that you are mixing the two concepts together.  I was genuinely confused as to your intention. I'm still not convinced your motivation is what you say it is, but that doesn't matter, does it?   Coffeegirl explained my point of view very well:

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeegirl View Post


To be honest, I don't know what your intention was with this thread. But because of the way you've gone about it, I don't at ALL get that your main point is about the importance of kids knowing basic manners. The info I've walked away from this thread with is: You spend a lot of money on fancy dinners; you have extremely high expectations of childrens' table etiquette (some of which you even admit is too "esoteric" to be practical, but yet you've spent so much time and detail talking about it...why?) I've also learned that The French Laundry is a SUPER fancy restaurant; that the Outback and Red Lobster are just wannabe nice restaurants, and that velochic and family DO. NOT. EAT at places like Denny's.

 

 


 

Velochic, this is true for any issue discussed on any forum anywhere:  if many people are concluding that you are saying one thing, while you believe you are saying something else, well then this tells you that you are not making your point clearly.  I think that's what's happening here.

 

Another phenomenon I've observed:  the OP makes a point, another person riffs on a variation of that subject, and then the rest of the readers assign the second person's post to the OP's post.  Which results in confusion.  I think that's also happening here.

 

I think the rules of ettiquitte and protocol are kind of interesting, my sainted mother taught me some of them.  For what it's worth, she and my dad both grew up during the Great Depression as well.  I definitely think parents put a higher premium on etiquette (not to be confused with manners) back then, more than many parents do now.

 

 

 

post #108 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

Most people aren't you, Holly.  Most people *are* on their smartphones being rude to their dining companions.  I was telling you what others are probably thinking.  How is someone to assume that a small family of two adults and a toddler are having a business dinner?  I mean, what person would conclude that?  All I'm saying is that when you see people on their phones at dinner, 99% of the time it's not urgent business that can't wait until they've had their family time.  Unfortunately, with all of your good intentions, you get included with the majority.  I'm not saying *I* am judging, just that people do wonder.

 

As for the incident with the kid I wrote about... the parents weren't paying a lick of attention to him.  I doubt that you'd (you, Holly, not the collective you) be ignoring your child if you were conducting business because of your parenting principles that brought you to MDC.  Something had those parents engaged that they couldn't take their eyes off of the screen and parenting was not on their mind.  As an AP momma, I doubt you would do that in any circumstance.  But people don't know your whole story, and yes they make assumptions.  Good or bad, it's human nature.



I think we can just disagree about this.We can discuss it another time on a spinoff thread if I or someone else starts one smile.gif
post #109 of 200
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom View Post





 

Thank you.  smile.gifI sincerely appreciate the explanation and clarification. Thank you for acknowledging that you are mixing the two concepts together.  I was genuinely confused as to your intention. I'm still not convinced your motivation is what you say it is, but that doesn't matter, does it?   Coffeegirl explained my point of view very well:

 


 


 

Velochic, this is true for any issue discussed on any forum anywhere:  if many people are concluding that you are saying one thing, while you believe you are saying something else, well then this tells you that you are not making your point clearly.  I think that's what's happening here.

 

Another phenomenon I've observed:  the OP makes a point, another person riffs on a variation of that subject, and then the rest of the readers assign the second person's post to the OP's post.  Which results in confusion.  I think that's also happening here.

 

I think the rules of ettiquitte and protocol are kind of interesting, my sainted mother taught me some of them.  For what it's worth, she and my dad both grew up during the Great Depression as well.  I definitely think parents put a higher premium on etiquette (not to be confused with manners) back then, more than many parents do now.

 

 

 



I agree journeymom.  And whatever you or others might think my intentions are, it was to discuss what now I realize is a delicate topic.  Perhaps I'm not making my point, but I disagree that many people are concluding that I'm saying something other than what I intended because I got wonderful conversation.

post #110 of 200

Manners are always necessary, IMO, like decent clean clothing. Etiquette is not vital, but may be appropriate based on context, like say your church outfit (or red carpet gown lol). I think attitudes to etiquette are probably similar to one's general philosophy on how important or useful it is to be able to "fit in" in the surrounding environment, and how much of your self confidence depends on your being in tone or inversely, a rebel.

 

Personally, I trend conformist, and I like to know, and like my son to know, proper table etiquette. That said, it has been about 3 years that we have started taking our son to "upscale" restaurants, on special occasions. DH & I have always treated ourselves to a fine-dining experience for our wedding aniversary. And when DS was younger, we got a baby sitter for him and went alone. Then 3 years ago, he said he wanted to come celebrate our anniversary too - after all he was a member of the family too and deserved to participate . So, we didn't downgrade our experience, we upgraded his - he had already been eating out at more casual restaurants, pizzerias etc.

 

Thank heavens in this country there is no such thing or even discussion of "child-free environments". Children are welcome everywhere, and everywhere I have been I have seen children able to behave themselves appropriately. Maybe it depends that it is so normal for children and adults to socialise in many occasions and contexts, both formal and informal. Maybe it depends that this is a very child-friendly culture, so my idea of "appropriate" would be some other cultures idea of running wild. I don't know.

 

My child can pick a plate for himself at a buffet gracefully. He can use a napkin. He can use silverware. He knows what glass is for water and what for white or red wine or spumante (though he only uses the one, of course). He knows to stay seated reasonably composed and keep his elbows off the table and speak in a conversational tone. If a meal progresses too long, he might get bored or restless. Then he may leave his seat and go outside if possible, or otherwise he sometimes comes and sits in my lap and we play hand games like scissor rock paper, or he gets his dad's phone and plays some game on that. And that is perfectly child appropriate, non disruptive behaviour in any social context. Actually it is the same sort of behaviour he has to maintain at home (with a few pieces of silverware less and no buffet!). It doesn't have to be a big deal.

post #111 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

 

ETA:  I do think that TFL is fine dining... and last I knew, the tasting menu was $250 or so.  My niece eats a ton of fast food with her kids and spends about the same we do on eating out.  Nobody is saying she's wealthy because she can afford fast food 4 or 5 times a week.  I can't imagine anyone saying that spending $400 - $500/month on eating out would put you in the "wealthy" bracket.

 


I would say that.  That's more than my monthly food budget and we're solidly middle class.  $400 a month on dining out is insane, it's almost half my mortgage.  If we go out to eat (there's 2 adults, 2 kids) we rarely spend more than $40.  But then again I consider Red Lobster a date night worthy, put on nice pants restaurant.

 

post #112 of 200



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post




I would say that.  That's more than my monthly food budget and we're solidly middle class.  $400 a month on dining out is insane, it's almost half my mortgage.  If we go out to eat (there's 2 adults, 2 kids) we rarely spend more than $40.  But then again I consider Red Lobster a date night worthy, put on nice pants restaurant.

 



Yup, also my monthly food budget. And if we are ever so lucky to get a Red Lobster I 'spec we'll dress up a little and leave the babe at home.

 

 

post #113 of 200
Thread Starter 

Seriosa - excellent post.  My dh is not American and in his home country it is that way, as well.

post #114 of 200
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post




I would say that.  That's more than my monthly food budget and we're solidly middle class.  $400 a month on dining out is insane, it's almost half my mortgage.  If we go out to eat (there's 2 adults, 2 kids) we rarely spend more than $40.  But then again I consider Red Lobster a date night worthy, put on nice pants restaurant.

 

ETA: I'm not going to argue with you.  To each his own.

post #115 of 200


 

 

Originally Posted by seriosa View Post
Thank heavens in this country there is no such thing or even discussion of "child-free environments". Children are welcome everywhere, and everywhere I have been I have seen children able to behave themselves appropriately. Maybe it depends that it is so normal for children and adults to socialise in many occasions and contexts, both formal and informal. Maybe it depends that this is a very child-friendly culture, so my idea of "appropriate" would be some other cultures idea of running wild. I don't know.

 

 

 

thank you, for saying that. "child-free environments"? what next.

 

OP, have you frequently encountered the kind of behavior exhibited by this particular child? i would think it is not the norm, so who knows what the background is. also, am somewhat mystified as to the connection between this incident and general manners and specific etiquette? because it is safe to assume it's not often that children that age behave thus.

 

manners are important. etiquette is the production people make in order to make a statement about their "class", wealth and status wink1.gif. to each his own.

 


 

 

post #116 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post





So, it seems that instead of answering my question with a simple, "No, we don't teach our children the rules of dining etiquette, we teach them manners to get by", it becomes a pissing contest because we can afford to eat at restaurants where these etiquette points my come in handy and you can't.  Sorry for your lot in life, but we worked our asses off to be here and I'll be damned to apologize for it.  Posters like you made this thread something that from my very first post, I said I didn't want it to be.  Go cry in a corner.

 

Maybe we need to start talking about internet manners now...

 

And we probably could afford to eat at TFL (once), but it's not high on my priority list *shrug*

 

And saying you work your ass off and that's why you're where you are may open up a can of worms, it already has on another thread.  Just an fyi.
 

 

post #117 of 200
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post



 

Maybe we need to start talking about internet manners now...

 

And we probably could afford to eat at TFL (once), but it's not high on my priority list *shrug*

 

And saying you work your ass off and that's why you're where you are may open up a can of worms, it already has on another thread.  Just an fyi.
 

 


Oh, please.  Explain.  We're near retirement and have spent a lifetime getting where we are, supported my dh's mother until her death and now have my mother living with us.  What can of worms would that be?

 

post #118 of 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post




Oh, please.  Explain.  We're near retirement and have spent a lifetime getting where we are.  What can of worms would that be?

 



I think it's the class war thread in TAO.  It was just a friendly warning hon b/c a lot of people are really offended by that statement.

 

And back to food.  Isn't the bread rule that you tear a piece off, butter it, eat it, repeat?  Why is it so rude to butter your whole roll?  Does this mean I can never butter my entire Cheddar Bay biscuit again?

post #119 of 200
Woah! $400-$500 a month on eating out? And you dont consider that wealthy? That is more than our food budget for the month including food out and food in. Thats more than I pay for housing. I consider that wealthy for sure. You would have to buy 100 Big Mac meals from McDonalds to spend that much in a month.

I think that what you are looking for is for someone to say that Yes, they teach their child which fork to eat with and which way to dip their soup out, but you are asking people who dont regularly take their kids out to eat at a place where there even IS a second fork. I eat almost exclusively local restaurants that serve locally grown food and hormone free meat, but they dont have the extra silverware. Little things like which way to spoon your soup out is great to know, but I think you paired it with people not paying attention to their kids while they were eating, letting kids wipe bbq sauce everywhere, and scenes from casual dining settings. If you had straight asked "Do you teach your kids fine dining etiquitte?" your response would have been different. I think its great that your kids are learning that stuff, and it may come in handy one day.
post #120 of 200
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post





I think it's the class war thread in TAO.  It was just a friendly warning hon b/c a lot of people are really offended by that statement.

 

And back to food.  Isn't the bread rule that you tear a piece off, butter it, eat it, repeat?  Why is it so rude to butter your whole roll?  Does this mean I can never butter my entire Cheddar Bay biscuit again?


What statement, "hon" (and I'm no friend, either)?  I think you have me confused with someone else.

 

Yes that is the bread rule.  And you can do whatever you want to do with it.   God, I would hate to go through life as bitter as you are.

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Parenting
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › Children, parents, restaurants, manners, etiquette...