Yes, vaccines can CAUSE autism!

[Mirzam]

Love her or hate her, Hiliary Butler always has something thought provoking and well researched to say:

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Yes,_vaccines_can_CAUSE_autism!/

Vaccines during babyhood have the potential to be both immunological and cranial cluster bombs, AND do serious mitochondrial damage.  The most common "evidence" of immune system irregularities after vaccines are allergy, atopy, and asthma, but most people are also told that they are "coincidental" as well.

No, vaccines aren't the one-stop-damage-shop, - they are the bullet in the loaded gun - but many parents with autistic children, have discovered that cleaning up their own diet, and doing things differently - including NOT vaccinating subsequent children, results in children with no autistic spectrum disorders.

[BeckyBird]

I love Hilary Butler. I read 2 of her books back in '09, and it's time to read them again. So much information crammed in them, and this time around, I'll take notes.

Thanks for the article!

Also, note:

Vaccines can cause autism, but they are not the only single cause. I know.

Vaccines might be one cause/trigger for autism, but they are surely not responsible for every single case. (unvaccinated people can develop autism) There is still evidence that vaccines can trigger autism, as well as other health problems, and this should not be ignored!

[purslaine]

Ah, you brave soul  

I have no idea what causes autism. I am of the school of thought that it is genetic tendancy plus environmental triggers.  I think the rate has increased in recent years as do many others - but some don't.

For what it is worth, I have 2 nephews with autism (moderate-severe).  One was fully immunized and one was given most immunisations, but my sister decided to pass on the MMR for him, given the controversy at the time.  He has autism anyways.   In the case of my nephews I do think one was born with it (the fully vaxxed one)  and the other really, really, REALLY did seem to be developing normally until he caught some sort of virus/infection at 2.5 and regressed overnight.  

Edited by purslaine - 8/21/11 at 4:25pm

[katelove]

Ok, my LO is unvaccinated and I do believe that vaccines may be the trigger for autism in some susceptible individuals. *But*, that article, while interesting, is nothing more than the authors opinion. It seems to be an educated opinion but it is still just an opinion. It doesn't constitute evidence of a causal link between vaccination and autism.

[purslaine]

I read the article - some of it I liked and some I did not.

I liked this:

"And I have serious issues with those people who have used Wakefield as a scapegoat, while deliberately ignoring the autism-vaccine-elephant of their making, standing right in front of them.  I guess they hoped that however they shot the messenger, that's all they had to do. Wrong.  FACT - Autism can be caused by vaccines. FACT - Wakefield is irrelevant to the core message there. "

Even though I disagree it is a fact "autism can be caused by vaccines" I like her slamming those who trot out Wakefield as a sign we should abandon our concerns around the possibility of an autism/vaccine connection.  One persons study, even if it proven to be flawed, was never the only grounds for concern.  

I dislike her blaming of the mother.  Several of her points seem to revolve around mother nutrition around pregnancy and breastfeeding, and I just do not buy it based on her arguments.  She would need to be very specific on what nutrients she thinks are missing, and if there are studies to back this up.  
 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by katelove 

Ok, my LO is unvaccinated and I do believe that vaccines may be the trigger for autism in some susceptible individuals. *But*, that article, while interesting, is nothing more than the authors opinion. It seems to be an educated opinion but it is still just an opinion. It doesn't constitute evidence of a causal link between vaccination and autism.

Agreed.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I dislike her blaming of the mother.  Several of her points seem to revolve around mother nutrition around pregnancy and breastfeeding, and I just do not buy it based on her arguments.  She would need to be very specific on what nutrients she thinks are missing, and if there are studies to back this up.  
 

I don't think she is really blaming the mother, but yes she is very vocal on nutritional deficiencies being a cause. She does spell it out, check out the vaccine archives she has a ton of info still there if you have any interest. Do you really think there would be any unbiased studies on maternal nutrition and breastfeeding when the pharmaceutical companies make and sell formula?
 

[japonica]

I don't take it as blaming the mother. If you look into the whole nutrition-genetics-epigenetic field out there, what she is proposing is not so far fetched. Scientists have published studies showing dietary influences on various conditions...the old you breed rats who are genetically predisposed to something or other. Feed one bunch a completely different diet from the others and see the variation in the results...

I don't think it's that surprising that if you have someone who is deficient in certain nutrients before becoming pregnant, who eats nothing but really substandard fare while pregnant and breastfeeding, they and their offspring might have certain epigenetic changes that could then in turn be influenced by a number of environmental factors, including vaccines. 

[purslaine]

Do you have any links on nutrition causing autism?  I did look on her site, but did not find the info I was looking for  - references to studies or specific nutritional deficiencies.  

I do think it is plausible that nutritional deficiencies ( in utero  or infancy) are a cause of autism  - but she did not prove it.  Heck, I don't need proof (proof is very hard to come by in these discussions) but more solid evidence is necessary for me to jump on this bandwagon.

Once upon a time women were blamed for their children autism because they must have been cold - refrigerator mothers they were called.  I just don't want a mother thinking she caused her childs autism through something she did or did not eat unless there is some evidence to support this.

Edited by purslaine - 8/22/11 at 7:01am

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Do you have any links on nutrition causing autism?  I did look on her site, but did not find the info I was looking for  - references to studies or specific nutritional deficiencies.  

I do think it is plausible that nutritional deficiencies ( in utero  or infancy) are a cause of autism  - but she did not prove it.  Heck, I don't need proof (proof is very hard to come by in vaccine discussions) but more solid evidence is necessary for me to jump on this bandwagon.

Once upon a time women were blamed for their children autism because they must have been cold - refrigerator mothers they were called.  I just don't want a mother thinking she caused her childs autism through something she did or did not eat unless there is some evidence to support this.

I agree with Japonica - what she is proposing is not far fetched and makes a great deal of sense. I don't see it as blaming either.

http://www.dukehealth.org/health_library/news/9322

 

"Nutrition isn't a fleeting affair," said Jirtle. "We are, quite literally, what we eat as well as what our parents and even grandparents ate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18287970

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hSvWiidot5qJlPinbF354ADI48aw

 Interestingly, not all the affected genes were actually deleted, but only prevented from turning on, offering hope that therapies could be developed to reactivate the genes," the researchers added in their statement.

 hmmmm epigentics has the power to turn genes off and on

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/sep2009/od-16.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=6sF-KDH1LqAC

[purslaine]

Thanks for the links!

[friend2011]

"Love her or hate her, Hiliary Butler always has something thought provoking and well researched to say"

Well, she sure didn't research this well. Mitochondrial dysfunction relating to MTHFR mutation is genetic. Severe MTHFR deficiency is rare but patients exhibit developmental delay, motor and gait dysfunction, seizures, and neurological impairment. Vaccines a trigger? Obviously not. It's just part of the genetic mitation. And what about those four key things which affect the integrity of mitochondrial genes? Just where did that come from? How can you prevent the severity of a genetic disorder by diet? How can method of birth? Where id the evidence and science anything would prevent the outcome? Nothing like blaming the mother for something she cant at all control handing down to her child.

"There is absolutely no doubt that children with autism not only have deranged inate immune systems, but they also have cognitive disorder, and crohns." And just where is the evidence of this? None.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by friend2011 

"Love her or hate her, Hiliary Butler always has something thought provoking and well researched to say"

Well, she sure didn't research this well. Mitochondrial dysfunction relating to MTHFR mutation is genetic. Severe MTHFR deficiency is rare but patients exhibit developmental delay, motor and gait dysfunction, seizures, and neurological impairment. Vaccines a trigger? Obviously not. It's just part of the genetic mitation. And what about those four key things which affect the integrity of mitochondrial genes? Just where did that come from? How can you prevent the severity of a genetic disorder by diet? How can method of birth? Where id the evidence and science anything would prevent the outcome? Nothing like blaming the mother for something she cant at all control handing down to her child.

"There is absolutely no doubt that children with autism not only have deranged inate immune systems, but they also have cognitive disorder, and crohns." And just where is the evidence of this? None.

You obviously didn't read any of the links I posted above. Please look into epigentics more throughly before entirely discounting. That's her whole point. The emerging field of epigentics is finding that genes can be turned on and off through behavior, diet and other environmenal factors. Genetic "mutations" may in fact be able to be reversed. All she is doing is connecting the dots.
 

[friend2011]

But I did. One link was a hypothesis. One link was about finding 'inherited' deletions related to autism (great point towards the opposite of the articles intent). One link was about 22 grants on genome-wide studies. And finally, one was a book. All 4 gave little to no information to back up the article. As for epigenetics, the article was about autism, not cancer. 

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by friend2011 

But I did. One link was a hypothesis. One link was about finding 'inherited' deletions related to autism (great point towards the opposite of the articles intent). One link was about 22 grants on genome-wide studies. And finally, one was a book. All 4 gave little to no information to back up the article. As for epigenetics, the article was about autism, not cancer. 

  sigh. The links were not meant to back up the article. They were meant to give information about epigentics and it's impact on gene expression which obviously can have a huge impact on ALOT of things - autism being 1 possibility. It's an emerging field with the potential to give us a great deal of information. Im afraid you are missing the bigger picture here. oh well

[BeckyBird]

This simply proves that  more research is needed, so at this time, you can't rule out vaccines as a possible trigger for autism. There may be several studies that have not found a link, but there are so many other areas that still need to be researched. That's all we're saying here.

[friend2011]

  sigh. I was commenting on the article, you suggested I didn't see your links, of which now you say had nothing to do with the article itself (which was obvious). Maybe with epigenetics, you can explain how diet can alter Angelman syndrome and Prader-Willi syndrome? If not, you're making a picture more muddled than need be.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by friend2011 

  sigh. I was commenting on the article, you suggested I didn't see your links, of which now you say had nothing to do with the article itself (which was obvious). Maybe with epigenetics, you can explain how diet can alter Angelman syndrome and Prader-Willi syndrome? If not, you're making a picture more muddled than need be.

Actually I'm Not  - and I never said my links had nothing to do with the original article, I just said they were not offered up as proof that vaccines cause autism - and actually it's not "obvious" they have nothing to do with the article because they are relevant if one can open their mind and look at the bigger picture in my opinion. Nowhere in my post did I say epigenetics was the answer for every single genetic mutation or defect  - all I said is that it is an up and coming field with the potential to give us a great deal of information about genetics issues and other things -  You seem to have it all figured out already so I think I will leave it at that.

[heathergirl67]

I don't really understand why this is being discussed at all. This is someone's opinion. Not a study, not new facts... nothing. Just her saying, "I think XYZ and this is why."

Okay, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Personally I don't base my decisions off of other people's opinions, though.